Damage to property by ticket gate: how to proceed?

[davetheguard]

A friend travelled yesterday from Yeovil Junction to Waterloo with South West Trains, and on-arrival at Waterloo, the exit gates closed and somehow caught the tool box he was carrying and ended up breaking the handle.

He's now asking for advice on what to do: I've suggested contacting SWT customer services straight away (in case someone needs to see the incident on CCTV before it is wiped); tell them exactly what happened with time & date, attach a photo of the damage; and explain what you expect to achieve - a replacement tool box. I'm assuming he no longer has a ticket as proof of his journey, as it will have been retained by the gate.

Presumably the railway are liable for this damage (?): what do others think; has anyone had any similar incidents; and what was the outcome? Finally, anything else I should advise my friend to do?

Thanks for any help in advance.

 

[DJL]

I wonder if they might simply say he should have used the wide gate.

 

[Waldgrun]

Hopefully he should still have his ticket, as a ticket to London terminals, still has validity at Waterloo, and can be used to other former Southern region terminals via Waterloo East. Unless SWT haven't set the gates correctly, which wouldn't surprise me, as I believe at one time, staff were not given this information.

 

[455driver]

All they will ask is why didnt he use one of the many wide gates which are specifically for people carrying luggage so your presumption could well be wrong.

To be honest if those gates break the handle off a tool box it cant have been a very strong handle.

 

[davetheguard]

All they will ask is why didnt he use one of the many wide gates which are specifically for people carrying luggage so your presumption could well be wrong.

To be honest if those gates break the handle off a tool box it cant have been a very strong handle.

You may or may not be correct about the strength of the tool box handle; I can't say as I've not seen it.

But surely that is immaterial; if it wasn't broken before being caught in the gates, and it was broken after being caught in the gates, then surely there ought to be some sort of recompense?

As for not using the wide gate, there's a whole raft of reasons why someone might not use it: being unaware of it; queue of people already using it; currently being used by people coming the other way; gate not in use/under repair.

 

[thebigcheese]

I suspect the gate closed after he had gone through and he tried to pull the toolbox through the gate??

 

[reb0118]

I got caught by by kit bag (rucksack type) at Glasgow Central and my initial thought was that the gate was rather sharp in closing so I reported this. NB I was not injured but felt that an elderly or young passenger may have been in similar circumstances.

Suffice to say: "no fault found" except by me in that I was using a non standard kit bag (no quick release straps). I expect a similar response to this query and a recommendation to use the wide gate in future.

 

[455driver]

Which would mean that the gate didnt break the toolbox handle but the OPs friend did by trying to force it through the gate!

 

[najaB]

Which would mean that the gate didnt break the toolbox handle but the OPs friend did by trying to force it through the gate!

My experience has been that the gates close, then open again after one or two seconds if there's anything in the way. I've never had one close on me and stay closed, so I don't know if there was a fault with the gate in the OP's case.

 

[tony6499]

I wouldn't expect anything, it would have to be proved the gates were at fault and not your friend.

 

[maniacmartin]

Can we have some more description on what sort of toolbox this was? Was it on wheels like a lugggage case?

 

[DownSouth]

This sounds like a case where 'split the difference' could be the right way to work through it.

Start by sending a letter of demand for the rail company pay the full cost of replacement, they'll refuse and try to get away without paying anything of course. Make the demand again and threaten court action this time, but make it clear that it's something you don't want to be forced into, and you'd prefer to reach a lesser settlement to avoid it. You'll hopefully then be able to get some portion of the cost as a way of the company 'splitting the difference' somewhere between nothing and full cost of replacement, we are talking about nuisance money for a megacorp like Stagecoach which they'll gladly pay to just make you go away.

 

[najaB]

...we are talking about nuisance money for a megacorp like Stagecoach which they'll gladly pay to just make you go away.

Equally, since it'll be hard to prove negligence on their part, they may well just see how far the OP's friend is willing to take things.

 

[Marklund]

A tool box should be durable.

It may have been previously cracked, it's of poor quality, or the user has misused the box, by trying to force it.

Can't see how SWT/NR should be paying for anything.

 

[davetheguard]

I suspect the gate closed after he had gone through and he tried to pull the toolbox through the gate??

Knowing the individual concerned, that may well be the case; possibly accompanied my some choice expletives!

However, even if that was the scenario (and I don't know, I wasn't there), if the gate hadn't closed on his toolbox in the first place, he wouldn't have tried to pull it free.....

 

[maniacmartin]

This is Waterloo:

Every narrow gate has a yellow sticker with a picture of a case with a red cross through it. The wide gates have a big blue pictures of cases on.

As well as being wider, the wide gates are much gentler and more likely to reopen if they detect an obstacle. They are also nearer the watchful eyes of gateline assistants.

Note that it is a requirement under secton 9(2) of the Railway Byelaws to use gates 'in the correct manner', so if your friend tried to take a big wheeled case through the narrow gates contrary to signs, it could be argued that he has committed an offence.

 

[davetheguard]

Can we have some more description on what sort of toolbox this was? Was it on wheels like a lugggage case?

Sorry, I really don't know - next time I hear from him, I'll ask.

 

[najaB]

...if the gate hadn't closed on his toolbox in the first place, he wouldn't have tried to pull it free.....

IANAL, but from what I understand, this argument - "If not for A then I wouldn't have done B." - doesn't get you very far in court if 'B' is what caused the damage.

If this went as far as small claims court, all SWT needs to say is "He could've used the bigger gate or asked for assistance, like the signs tell people to." and they've won the case.

 

[6Gman]

This is Waterloo:

Every narrow gate has a yellow sticker with a picture of a case with a red cross through it. The wide gates have a big blue pictures of cases on.

As well as being wider, the wide gates are much gentler and more likely to reopen if they detect an obstacle. They are also nearer the watchful eyes of gateline assistants.

Note that it is a requirement under secton 9(2) of the Railway Byelaws to use gates 'in the correct manner', so if your friend tried to take a big wheeled case through the narrow gates contrary to signs, it could be argued that he has committed an offence.

The advisory notices would be clearer if it wasn't for all that advertising wrapped round everything!

 

[455driver]

Knowing the individual concerned, that may well be the case; possibly accompanied my some choice expletives!

However, even if that was the scenario (and I don't know, I wasn't there), if the gate hadn't closed on his toolbox in the first place, he wouldn't have tried to pull it free.....

Equally if he hadnt tried using the narrow gate while pulling a toolbox the gate wouldnt have closed on it!

If you are going to use the 'if A didint happen then B wouldnt have happened', you need to go back to the realistic beginning.

 

[najaB]

If you are going to use the 'if A didint happen then B wouldnt have happened', you need to go back to the realistic beginning.

'If A didn't happen, then B wouldn't have happened' is the post-hoc argument, the question that needs to be answered is "Did A cause B to happen?" In this case, it did not.

 

[Hadders]

Did the person report the incident straight away to the gateline assistant and request that a log on the incident take place?

I doubt the person will get anything but if they wish to pursue it then I would suggest writing to customer relations with a full description of what happened and details of te toolbox and its cost.

 

[dcsprior]

I don't disagree with anyone here who expects the OP's friend to have no joy here

However I must say it seems strange that ticket gates close without a sensor first checking they're unobstructed. I wouldn't have expected it'd be difficult to have a few light beams which had to be unbroken before it would close.

 

[najaB]

I don't disagree with anyone here who expects the OP's friend to have no joy here

However I must say it seems strange that ticket gates close without a sensor first checking they're unobstructed. I wouldn't have expected it'd be difficult to have a few light beams which had to be unbroken before it would close.

Most of them do, the issue occurs when when someone trails a suitcase/toolbox behind them. The sensor is blocked by their body, but then there's the gap behind them before the case comes through. If there was a delay before the gate started to close, it would make it easier for fare dodgers to tailgate.

 

[455driver]

I don't disagree with anyone here who expects the OP's friend to have no joy here

However I must say it seems strange that ticket gates close without a sensor first checking they're unobstructed. I wouldn't have expected it'd be difficult to have a few light beams which had to be unbroken before it would close.

that is exactly how they do work, as soon as the light sensor is clear it closes the gate to stop anyone double gating, unfortunately this is exactly the same situation as in this case with the toolbox.

 

[DJL]

Most of them do, the issue occurs when when someone trails a suitcase/toolbox behind them. The sensor is blocked by their body, but then there's the gap behind them before the case comes through. If there was a delay before the gate started to close, it would make it easier for fare dodgers to tailgate.

Or the toolbox could have been too high or too lower to break the sensor beam

 

[PermitToTravel]

To be honest if those gates break the handle off a tool box it cant have been a very strong handle.

One takes their victim as they find them.

Knowing the individual concerned, that may well be the case; possibly accompanied my some choice expletives!

However, even if that was the scenario (and I don't know, I wasn't there), if the gate hadn't closed on his toolbox in the first place, he wouldn't have tried to pull it free.....

Your friend needs to think about whether the gate broke his box, or whether he broke the box using the gate. The force which cased failure of the handle can either have been applied by his arm, or by the closing motor of the gate. I'm sure he knows which.

 

[CyrusWuff]

An alternative, provided for by Condition 63 of the National Conditions of Carriage, would be to bypass SWT (and Network Rail, given it's "their" station) and contact:

CAHA Registrar Ltd
1 Eversholt Street
LONDON
NW1 2DN

 

[LateThanNever]

The advisory notices would be clearer if it wasn't for all that advertising wrapped round everything!

Not to mention if you've just got off a train all the people in front of it! Let's hope the revenue from the advertising pays him some compensation!

 

[David Goddard]

Reading this reminds me of an experience where our tickets did not open the gate, and a member of staff opened it with their pass card, signalled for our whole group to pass through, but then it closed on my friend's wife, bruising her arm. I didn't see whether he held his hand over the sensor or not, but the attendant showed no remorse, just walked away.