Daily Telegraph quoting from this forum today

[Highview]

The DT has an article about train driver's pay and conditions today and explicitly mentions posts from this forum!

 

[ainsworth74]

Any chance of a link?

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Link to article:

The ‘laid back’ life of a £67k train driver – and how it compares to other jobs

The academic requirements are minimal and the perks generous, so why are they paid so much more than nurses, army officers and teachers?

www.telegraph.co.uk

Article is hidden behind a paywall, but you can paste the link into this website to bypass it.

The ‘laid back’ life of a £67k train driver – and how it compares to other jobs​

The academic requirements are minimal and the perks generous, so why are they paid so much more than nurses, army officers and teachers?

“Police detectives, school teachers, law graduates. I’ve seen them all applying to become train drivers because it’s an easier job for a much higher salary,” says ‘Dave’, an anonymous rail worker. “I know the job requires prolonged concentration, they work unsociable hours and they run the risk of suicides or other fatalities,” he says. “But people in other professions are paid far less to live with equivalent or greater stress and much more unpredictable challenges.”

Dave is feeling candid in the wake of last week’s reports that Avanti will be culling up to half of its Saturday services from Dec 9 to 30 because of driver and train crew shortages, according to industry sources; this despite the fact that, two years after qualification, drivers can expect to be paid a salary of £67,000 a year.

Avanti is not unusual. According to Reed Recruitment, train driver salaries can rise to in excess of £65,000 across the UK. The average driver salary in London is £58,795, with experienced professionals in the region having salaries that often exceed £69,000, while train driver salaries in Scotland start at £38,194 for newly qualified drivers, rising to £48,360 after the probation period has ended.

“But that doesn’t include overtime,” says Dave. “Unless they’re working on [tourist attraction] Colne Valley Railway, you’d be hard pressed to find any mainline train driver working for £48,000.”

That’s an impressive whack, when compared with bus drivers whose salary ranges from £18,000 to £34,000 per annum and have to manage constant interaction with the public alongside less predictable driving conditions and fewer perks. Train drivers also require fewer academic qualifications than lower-paid nurses, army officers and secondary school teachers.

And how’s the job? I scrolled through railforums.co.uk where users purporting to be train drivers swapped opinions on their role. In September 2019, one group member described his working life as: “very laid back, I’m paid to look out of a window. When I step off I’m done and I don’t take anything home with me.”

In the same forum, other drivers warned potential applicants to prepare for long shifts, a degree of isolation and to set their alarm clocks for 2am. But one argued these inconveniences were a small price to pay for a great job. “Used to work in ticket offices years ago,” they wrote, “and I hated it with a passion, interacting with the public, the cash handling, the noise and announcements (busy London terminus), bullying management and supervisory culture, pressing the same sequences of buttons and saying the same things day in, day out, being rooted to the spot behind the window, the sense of having no dominion over your mental and physical space.”

This same user felt that while train driving involved managing “stresses such as shift patterns, changes in your workday, curveballs from Control or the Daily Sheets,” the benefits included the freedom “to concentrate and absorb what needs to be done and given [the head space] to do so. Not many jobs like that these days, not outside the trades anyway.”

Anonymous train guard ‘Sarah’ – who earns £29,000 per year –says: “The drivers’ salary is higher partly because of physical and mental health danger money: hurtling at 100-plus mph towards who knows what, the driver is the first to die in an accident. It is one of those specific skill jobs: only some people can stay in the zone with that level of concentration and the tests are very rigorous.”

Dave agrees that though “the academic requirements are low, the psychometric tests are unique. Do you remember that electronic game, Simple Simon? With the flashing lights? It’s like doing that for nine hours so it is a skill.” But he also argues that advances in technology make it an increasingly unnecessary skill.

“You say they’ve got to keep control,” he says. “But the technology means we don’t have to trust the human element any more. There are so many things [in place] to prevent an accident. Speeding through a red signal? There are so many things to stop that train. It would have to be almost purposeful.” He tells me that his own rail company is “even trialling cameras in the cab that monitor dilation of the eye to check if a driver is getting too tired”.

Dave tells me he’s “a socialist, a red. A union member. But when I think of what doctors and nurses are being paid – while being expected to pay for hospital car parking while train drivers get free station parking, free taxis to work and free rail travel for their families – I think train driver salaries are unjustifiable.”

He does acknowledge that drivers risk long-term mental health challenges if they’re unlucky enough to be involved in fatalities. “That can obviously be a horrific experience,” he says. In 2020-21 there were 247 suspected suicides on overground railways, according to Network Rail. But he notes that medics, police and firefighters also deal with the fallout of suicide for lower salaries and – in some cases – more guilt because of the more personal contact with the people involved.

“If train drivers are involved in a fatality they get as much time off as they need. But the cleaners [who are] sent to go underneath a train afterwards, scraping off [the human remains] before things are jet sprayed? They’re on minimum wage. Who’s supporting them?”

Dave believes that train driving should be a dwindling profession. He says: “The Victoria Line had the first driverless train in the 1960s. Eurostar doesn’t need them [drivers]. At 180 mph the driver is almost functionless. You can’t react to anything at that speed. DLR is driverless.” he sighs. “I dunno what the purpose is… I mean you could have an operator but probably pay them a lot less.”

Instead, he stresses that “station staff are the ones we need. The guys in the ticket offices. Maybe the ones in the countryside can be replaced with machines but the larger stations, with drunk people coming off the trains at 11pm? People with disabilities who need help? You do need staff there. And what are they paid?” Platform and gateline staff are on some of the lowest salaries on our network, with ticket office staff earning £24,000 to £26,000 and controllers at the terminals earning about £30,000.

Dave is angry about that. “They also have a hard time. They get assaulted. I know of one who was stabbed. Let’s be honest, when most suicides jump they jump from a platform so station staff are right in the middle of it, dealing with everything.”

Sarah counters that the current driver pay dispute “is more about no pay rises at all for nearly five years, so I guess the argument is that if they were worth the money five years ago surely it should be kept in line with the cost of living. When I joined four years ago I hoped my salary would be subject to a yearly negotiation. It is traditionally a job where less formally educated people can do well and that is no bad thing.” She adds that she believes the issue of private sector train driver salaries is “separate to the scandal of worthy state workers being exploited and underpaid… It seems a bit weird that the government has, according to the RMT, blocked discussions between the Rail Delivery Group and unions when they are – unfortunately – private companies. It seems a bit like we’re a public service when it suits and not when it doesn’t. I would like the railways publicly owned and subsidised to make public transport the obvious and cheap choice for green travel.”

 

[deltic]

Comes to something that a 4 year old thread is presented as news.

 

[ExRes]

Comes to something that a 4 year old thread is presented as news.

That's pretty cutting edge research for todays 'journalists', a sorrier bunch of time wasters as there are anywhere in this country, I'd rather admit to being a politician

 

[Busaholic]

That's pretty cutting edge research for todays 'journalists', a sorrier bunch of time wasters as there are anywhere in this country, I'd rather admit to being a politician

Boris Johnson did that and see where it got him - P.M.

 

[edwin_m]

That's pretty cutting edge research for todays 'journalists', a sorrier bunch of time wasters as there are anywhere in this country, I'd rather admit to being a politician

Perhaps someone should do a feature on the 'laid back' life of a £xxk journalist?

Boris Johnson did that and see where it got him - P.M.

'nuff said.

 

[Essan]

It's very common these days for newspaper stories to originate from posts made on Social Media - one reason to always be a bit wary of anything you say - though mostly they trawl FB and X for their sensationalism, rather than forums like this.

 

[irish_rail]

What a load of tosh, gutter journalism at its absolute worst.

 

[Master29]

The telegraph has been dissing everyone lately with it's pro right narrative. It's a toilet rag quite frankly.

 

[DunsBus]

The telegraph has been dissing everyone lately with it's pro right narrative. It's a toilet rag quite frankly.

There's no way that I'd read the Telegraph in a toilet. I wouldn't even wipe my backside with it.

 

[Economist]

I've got a Telegraph sub since some of their economics articles are fairly decent.

I posted a comment on the article under a pseudonym refuting a few of the popular myths and it was fairly well received to be honest. Once the reality of the myths are busted the public seem to be more reasonable.

I think it'd be good if ASLEF teamed up with one of the TOCs they're not in dispute with to produce a documentary series covering the recruitment and training processes and what the job entails on a day-to-day basis, it'd do a lot of good.

 

[Busaholic]

There's no way that I'd read the Telegraph in a toilet. I wouldn't even wipe my backside with it.

Being a broadsheet, it is great to lay on the floor to catch the crap from a large parrot overhead on a swing. A case of the crap catching the crap, you might say!

 

[TUC]

The telegraph has been dissing everyone lately with it's pro right narrative. It's a toilet rag quite frankly.

Being pro left is no more virtuous than pro right. They're just opinions.

 

[Tube driver]

Still a little salty after the ticket office fiasco so a bit of overpaid driver bashing to restore the equilibrium.

 

[Master29]

Being pro left is no more virtuous than pro right. They're just opinions.

Not true. The Telegraph has made it an agenda to diss anyone who doesn't follow their now extremist views. It's a horrid little hate stirring rag.

 

[S-Car-Go]

I've got a Telegraph sub since some of their economics articles are fairly decent.

Their economics are way off by the look of it. Did you notice the comparison graph of salaries? According to that bogus diagram, it seems train drivers had a massive increase in wages over the past 2-3 years. Whereas we all know, most train drivers have not had a wage increase in almost 5 years. If it's in real terms, that line representing train drivers should've plunged. If it's representing actual wages, it should've remained flat.

The TOCs that are overseen regionally (TfL, TfW, TfS, etc) resolved their disputes yonks ago with sensible offers by their regional governments. It's the incompetent English Government that is dragging its heels for all the other TOCs' drivers.

 

[irish_rail]

Their economics are way off by the look of it. Did you notice the comparison graph of salaries? According to that bogus diagram, it seems train drivers had a massive increase in wages over the past 2-3 years. Whereas we all know, most train drivers have not had a wage increase in almost 5 years. If it's in real terms, that line representing train drivers should've plunged. If it's representing actual wages, it should've remained flat.

The TOCs that are overseen regionally (TfL, TfW, TfS, etc) resolved their disputes yonks ago with sensible offers by their regional governments. It's the incompetent English Government that is dragging its heels for all the other TOCs' drivers.

Sadly it is more and more common for journalists to plain lie, and there seems to be zero comeback or consequences, provided they are towing the government line.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Comes to something that a 4 year old thread is presented as news.

That surely depends on how and what the journalist used.

If the usage was something like: "Train drivers have a cushy number ...," posters on UKRail say - using the four-year old thread as the basis for the story - then I agree with the criticism.

However, if the usages was along the lines of:

"The issue is not new. A poster on RailUK internet forum wrote four years ago that ....."

then there would be nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

I have not seen the original text, so can't say, but I suspect some posters here have been quick to reveal their own prejudices in judging this piece (although those prejudices may be understandable from experience).

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

That's pretty cutting edge research for todays 'journalists', a sorrier bunch of time wasters as there are anywhere in this country, I'd rather admit to being a politician

Par for the course these days. Hell Australian media will trawl Australian sub reddits for a story.

 

[Class 170101]

Perhaps its an argument for putting the forum behind a members only wall so the media can't just trawl?

 

[irish_rail]

Perhaps its an argument for putting the forum behind a members only wall so the media can't just trawl?

They'll just join up under a fake name

 

[irish_rail]

It's funny how the Tory rags don't like to quote actual train drivers, only the likes of "Dave" who support their narrative. It's a shame that newspapers no longer report NEWS or facts , but it's a different world now i suppose.

 

[deltic]

That surely depends on how and what the journalist used.

If the usage was something like: "Train drivers have a cushy number ...," posters on UKRail say - using the four-year old thread as the basis for the story - then I agree with the criticism.

However, if the usages was along the lines of:

"The issue is not new. A poster on RailUK internet forum wrote four years ago that ....."

then there would be nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

I have not seen the original text, so can't say, but I suspect some posters here have been quick to reveal their own prejudices in judging this piece (although those prejudices may be understandable from experience).

The article is at post 3 and takes about 2 minutes to read!

 

[Royston Vasey]

Finding an anonymous union member who thinks he is paid too much, if he is even real, and a couple of posts from four years ago. They couldn't be more transparently pushing their (and the government's) agenda if they tried.

A once great newspaper reduced to being an oversized Daily Express.

 

[irish_rail]

Finding an anonymous union member who thinks he is paid too much, if he is even real, and a couple of posts from four years ago. They couldn't be more transparently pushing their (and the government's) agenda if they tried.

A once great newspaper reduced to being an oversized Daily Express.

My thoughts exactly. It's their funeral.....

 

[Economist]

Their economics are way off by the look of it. Did you notice the comparison graph of salaries? According to that bogus diagram, it seems train drivers had a massive increase in wages over the past 2-3 years. Whereas we all know, most train drivers have not had a wage increase in almost 5 years. If it's in real terms, that line representing train drivers should've plunged. If it's representing actual wages, it should've remained flat.

The TOCs that are overseen regionally (TfL, TfW, TfS, etc) resolved their disputes yonks ago with sensible offers by their regional governments. It's the incompetent English Government that is dragging its heels for all the other TOCs' drivers.

I didn't pay much attention to it but now you've pointed it out, I wonder what the cause of the dip was in 2018-2020, more trainees? It makes very little sense and at best must have involved some serious statistical gymnastics.

Finding an anonymous union member who thinks he is paid too much, if he is even real, and a couple of posts from four years ago. They couldn't be more transparently pushing their (and the government's) agenda if they tried.

A once great newspaper reduced to being an oversized Daily Express.

From what I read he wasn't a driver (an "anonymous railway worker", assuming he's real) and was one of a small number of railway workers who are anti-driver.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Wonder whether they'll be using any of the selected quotes from this very thread in a future article....

It's a toilet rag quite frankly.

I wouldn't even wipe my backside with it.

It's a horrid little hate stirring rag.

A once great newspaper reduced to being an oversized Daily Express.

 

[GWVillager]

That surely depends on how and what the journalist used.

If the usage was something like: "Train drivers have a cushy number ...," posters on UKRail say - using the four-year old thread as the basis for the story - then I agree with the criticism.

However, if the usages was along the lines of:

"The issue is not new. A poster on RailUK internet forum wrote four years ago that ....."

then there would be nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

I have not seen the original text, so can't say, but I suspect some posters here have been quick to reveal their own prejudices in judging this piece (although those prejudices may be understandable from experience).

‘And how’s the job? I scrolled through railforums.co.uk where users purporting to be train drivers swapped opinions on their role. In September 2019, one group member described his working life as: “very laid back, I’m paid to look out of a window. When I step off I’m done and I don’t take anything home with me.”’

That seems like the former case, to me.

 

[43066]

Finding an anonymous union member who thinks he is paid too much, if he is even real, and a couple of posts from four years ago. They couldn't be more transparently pushing their (and the government's) agenda if they tried.

A once great newspaper reduced to being an oversized Daily Express.

Yes - compared to, say, The Times (which I subscribe to), The Telegraph appears to have moved sharply towards low brow tabloid style journalism. Making an anonymous internet forum the basis of a news article discussing a specialist/niche job role is seriously desperate stuff. Presumably they think it’s the kind of thing their reader base wants.

From what I read he wasn't a driver (an "anonymous railway worker", assuming he's real) and was one of a small number of railway workers who are anti-driver.

That’s how it seems to me. Sadly they are quite a few like that in the industry, albeit a minority, as you say. Of course another possibility is that the poster being quoted was a figment of the journalist’s imagination.