Daily Mail on the attack over driver wages

[A0]

Im fine with decent quality journalism. Trying stoke the fires of hatred by stirring up hatred between various parts of society is not quality journalism. Daily Fail has had it in for railway workers for years and a story like this is golden to stir up some more hatred. If that is what people seek in a paper then that is up to you.

Look - when train drivers are on a 35 hour week contract being paid double the national average wage, you don't think that *might* be in the public interest? Tell that to teachers, nurses or indeed the vast majority of the population who earn far less than that.

Funnily enough though, if it were people working in the finance sector earning that kind of sum, there would be complaints around here about them earning too much - some contradiction no?

 

[Moonshot]

Look - when train drivers are on a 35 hour week contract being paid double the national average wage, you don't think that *might* be in the public interest? Tell that to teachers, nurses or indeed the vast majority of the population who earn far less than that.

Funnily enough though, if it were people working in the finance sector earning that kind of sum, there would be complaints around here about them earning too much - some contradiction no?

Train drivers and guards salaries are negotiated in the private sector.

 

[DarloRich]

What you seem to be overlooking is newspapers reinforce their readers prejudices - they don't set their prejudices.

So the Daily Mirror peddles prejudice and dislike of certain sections of society, so does the Guardian, so did the Independent - they just happen to do it from a different perspective.

The DM attracts more vitriol than most other papers, in part because it's highly successful as the current ABC figures show and in part because it tends to annoy middle class left leaning liberals who also happen to be quite vocal usually on social media. The kind of people who read the Guardian for example and refuse to believe it's anything other than the complete truth.

The other point which always amuses me is the fact a newspaper which sells 1.5m copies a day is touted as setting the news agenda, yet the majority of news consumption in this country is via TV or radio or increasingly the internet - and that's dominated by one source, yet I don't hear demands that particular source shouldn't be allowed to hold the dominant position it does and be subject to competition from other outlets.

I don't read any paper. They are all rubbish. Comment as news, poor editorial standards, advertorials, terrible reporting, cost cutting, celebrity obsession and open bias. The Mail is the worst of the lot.

The mail attracts vitriol because it is bobbins. No problem with right leaning media. I do have a problem with crap right leaning media!

Funnily enough though, if it were people working in the finance sector earning that kind of sum, there would be complaints around here about them earning too much - some contradiction no?

that would barely be remarked upon in the finance sector as it is a fairly low wage and it certainly would not be remarked upon by the Daily Mail!

 

[snowball]

Reads more like a rant than a newspaper article.

The Daily Hate Mail is always like that, isn't it?

 

[Dave1987]

Indeed! It is not just railway workers. Anyone on terms they consider advantageous and can be used to stir up hatred and jealousy. It can be anyone from teachers to bin men. If you are in public service you should be paid peanuts and know your place. It is odd they don't look to closely at the tax arrangements of the great and the good mind.

The general story is: Look at these lazy bstards earning loads more than you. They are doing a job a shaved monkey could do. Why shouldn't they be treated like crap like you?

Indeed I do get the feeling that they cannot stand the fact we earn a decent income and have decent terms and conditions. How very dare we that is not the British way anymore!

 

[A0]

Train drivers and guards salaries are negotiated in the private sector.

So are bankers - so your point is?

Though most of the T&Cs of train drivers weren't negotiated in the private sector - they are a hangover from BR days and were TUPE'd across.

There is something of a nonsense in claiming on the one hand that the railway is a public service and should operate 7 days a week and then on the other hand having contracts of employment which only cover 5 and guarantee nobody has to work on certain days.

Retail has gone through this change over 30 years with regards to Sunday - yes when it was first introduced it was an exception, now shops are expected to be open on Sunday, there's no reason for 'special' rates of pay for working Saturday or Sunday.

 

[Moonshot]

Indeed I do get the feeling that they cannot stand the fact we earn a decent income and have decent terms and conditions. How very dare we that is not the British way anymore!

Indeed...its also worth pointing out that drivers hit the 40% tax bracket as well

 

[cjmillsnun]

..except that NHS nurses are nowhere near what train drivers are on.

because unlike drivers, nurses are not paid what they should be.

Drivers have a responsible job and get paid at about the right rate for it.

Nurses also have a responsible job and are paid badly.

 

[Moonshot]

So are bankers - so your point is?

Though most of the T&Cs of train drivers weren't negotiated in the private sector - they are a hangover from BR days and were TUPE'd across.

There is something of a nonsense in claiming on the one hand that the railway is a public service and should operate 7 days a week and then on the other hand having contracts of employment which only cover 5 and guarantee nobody has to work on certain days.

Retail has gone through this change over 30 years with regards to Sunday - yes when it was first introduced it was an exception, now shops are expected to be open on Sunday, there's no reason for 'special' rates of pay for working Saturday or Sunday.

Im afraid you dont quite understand. So to use Northern as an example, Sundays are outside the working week , but drivers have mandatory overtime for Sundays ( 1 in 4 ) which they have to work UNLESS they can be covered by someone else.

 

[Moonshot]

because unlike drivers, nurses are not paid what they should be.

Drivers have a responsible job and get paid at about the right rate for it.

Nurses also have a responsible job and are paid badly.

Nobody is forcing anyone to become a nurse

 

[cjmillsnun]

Nobody is forcing anyone to become a nurse

Agreed and that is one of the reasons we have staffing issues in the NHS

 

[A0]

I don't read any paper. They are all rubbish. Comment as news, poor editorial standards, advertorials, terrible reporting, cost cutting, celebrity obsession and open bias. The Mail is the worst of the lot.

So which "independent" source do you get your news from then?

The mail attracts vitriol because it is bobbins. No problem with right leaning media. I do have a problem with crap right leaning media!

The Mail was also the only paper on Fleet Street which stuck its head above the parapet on the Stephen Lawrence killers - and that was driven by Dacre following a meeting with Paul Condon who basically said they (the Met) weren't inclined to push it - so enraged was Dacre that he basically went for the 'publish and be damned' approach.

The only other papers I think have done anything comparable in the last 10 years were the Telegraph with the expenses scandal and The Times with the Rochdale Child Abuse stuff.

that would barely be remarked upon in the finance sector as it is a fairly low wage and it certainly would not be remarked upon by the Daily Mail!

You can of course provide evidence for that ?

 

[Dave1987]

Look - when train drivers are on a 35 hour week contract being paid double the national average wage, you don't think that *might* be in the public interest? Tell that to teachers, nurses or indeed the vast majority of the population who earn far less than that.

Funnily enough though, if it were people working in the finance sector earning that kind of sum, there would be complaints around here about them earning too much - some contradiction no?

You drop the pay and the quality applicants for the role would fall dramatically. You can get an average wage job without the responsibility and working Mon-Fri 9-5. The pay is attracting extremely high quality applicants to the role.

 

[A0]

Im afraid you dont quite understand. So to use Northern as an example, Sundays are outside the working week , but drivers have mandatory overtime for Sundays ( 1 in 4 ) which they have to work UNLESS they can be covered by someone else.

OK - but the issue is Sunday *is* now part of the working week for the rail network and that's the issue which needs to be tackled.

Back in the 80s BR didn't tackle it because Sunday's were much quieter back then, few shops were open etc. That's changed now, but the railway T&Cs haven't.

 

[Moonshot]

OK - but the issue is Sunday *is* now part of the working week for the rail network and that's the issue which needs to be tackled.

Back in the 80s BR didn't tackle it because Sunday's were much quieter back then, few shops were open etc. That's changed now, but the railway T&Cs haven't.

At my TOC, there is no issue covering Sundays. And we still run fewer services on a Sunday. Trains have always run on a Sunday ever since railways were invented.

 

[ainsworth74]

because unlike drivers, nurses are not paid what they should be.

Drivers have a responsible job and get paid at about the right rate for it.

Nurses also have a responsible job and are paid badly.

Yes and I think that's the crucial thing that's lost in these sorts of arguments. It always seems to end up, from some sections, being "Nurses are paid xx,000s per year whilst Train Drivers (or whoever is in the spotlight) are being paid xx,000s more!!". Surely that's not the scandal? The scandal is surely that nurses are underpaid considering the anti-social hours, the responsibility and the volume of work that they have to deal with.

No wonder there are thousands of applicants per driving post whilst the NHS is struggling to recruit sufficient nurses to staff its ranks. If you pay what a job is actually worth you'll find people who are willing to do it!

 

[Moonshot]

Agreed and that is one of the reasons we have staffing issues in the NHS

The railways do not have an issue attracting staff, every driver position offered new to the public is always heavily oversubscribed. And why wouldnt it be when you consider what drivers get paid nowadays. Thats the reality today.

 

[Bromley boy]

that would barely be remarked upon in the finance sector as it is a fairly low wage and it certainly would not be remarked upon by the Daily Mail!

Indeed.

I’d love to see some of the half wits who lap articles like that up coping with the shifts and the responsibility of the role.

The article also misses the point that the unions generally want more drivers to be employed. It is the TOCs who favour Sundays outside the working week and reliance on rest day working to keep costs down.

 

[ainsworth74]

OK - but the issue is Sunday *is* now part of the working week for the rail network and that's the issue which needs to be tackled.

As far as I'm aware the issue with this always boils down very few TOCs wanting to pay for it (and neither does the DfT). And that doesn't mean by bumping wages to cover for the loss of overtime but in recruiting more staff to cover shifts that are currently covered by people working rest days.

 

[Moonshot]

Yes and I think that's the crucial thing that's lost in these sorts of arguments. It always seems to end up, from some sections, being "Nurses are paid xx,000s per year whilst Train Drivers (or whoever is in the spotlight) are being paid xx,000s more!!". Surely that's not the scandal? The scandal is surely that nurses are underpaid considering the anti-social hours, the responsibility and the volume of work that they have to deal with.

No wonder there are thousands of applicants per driving post whilst the NHS is struggling to recruit sufficient nurses to staff its ranks. If you pay what a job is actually worth you'll find people who are willing to do it!

Paying a nurse a train drivers salary would have the effect of increasing everyones tax contribution. Bit of a conudrum is that one.

 

[Moonshot]

As far as I'm aware the issue with this always boils down very few TOCs wanting to pay for it (and neither does the DfT). And that doesn't mean by bumping wages to cover for the loss of overtime but in recruiting more staff to cover shifts that are currently covered by people working rest days.

I will guarentee you a lot of current staff would bemoan the loss of a choice of working a rest day. There are no shortage of volunteers.

 

[DarloRich]

So which "independent" source do you get your news from then?

The BBC - who seem to be attacked form all sides for bias so must be spot on - Private Eye and sometimes MK news! Is that ok with you?

The Mail was also the only paper on Fleet Street which stuck its head above the parapet on the Stephen Lawrence killers - and that was driven by Dacre following a meeting with Paul Condon who basically said they (the Met) weren't inclined to push it - so enraged was Dacre that he basically went for the 'publish and be damned' approach.

The only other papers I think have done anything comparable in the last 10 years were the Telegraph with the expenses scandal and The Times with the Rochdale Child Abuse stuff.

WOW. Insert hand clap icon here. The Daily Mail got something right and did something good. Once.

You can of course provide evidence for that ?

Well I could ask my friends for a copy of their pay slip. They work in finance, have similar if slightly less good qualifications to me, manage fewer staff and, perversely, manage less money than me. They get paid more than me. Lots more than me tbh.

By the same token i am sure my friends are paid considerably more than the cashier on the counter at the local Barclays or HSBC.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Paying a nurse a train drivers salary would have the effect of increasing everyones tax contribution. Bit of a conudrum is that one.

Fine. I’m happy to pay my share. It’s probably only a couple more pence in the pound to fund it.

 

[Moonshot]

Fine. I’m happy to pay my share. It’s probably only a couple more pence in the pound to fund it.

In which case, simply vote for the party who put that in there next election manifesto.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes and I think that's the crucial thing that's lost in these sorts of arguments. It always seems to end up, from some sections, being "Nurses are paid xx,000s per year whilst Train Drivers (or whoever is in the spotlight) are being paid xx,000s more!!". Surely that's not the scandal? The scandal is surely that nurses are underpaid considering the anti-social hours, the responsibility and the volume of work that they have to deal with.

No wonder there are thousands of applicants per driving post whilst the NHS is struggling to recruit sufficient nurses to staff its ranks. If you pay what a job is actually worth you'll find people who are willing to do it!

Exactly. I don't doubt anyone here, and indeed in the country as a whole doubts that nurses are badly paid (and badly treated too). However by focusing on another profession, one that is outside the public sector but still considered a public role, just fuels demands from certain quarters for a race to the bottom. If any future government suddenly decided to double nurse's wages, I've little doubt that newspapers like the Mail would suddenly be up in arms wanting to know who is going to pay for it.

Sadly in this country wage envy is one of the easiest prejudices to play upon. No mention of the responsibilities drivers have, not to mention the pressures for their "short week", just look these people get paid more than you for just sitting pressing levers. Its as much a sad reflection on how society in this country sees others as it is the bloody poor state of our media in general.

 

[cjmillsnun]

In which case, simply vote for the party who put that in there next election manifesto.

If I agree with the majority of the policies in the manifesto then I would do just that.

 

[DarloRich]

Retail has gone through this change over 30 years with regards to Sunday - yes when it was first introduced it was an exception, now shops are expected to be open on Sunday, there's no reason for 'special' rates of pay for working Saturday or Sunday.

The counter argument is that retail has been able to bully and threaten staff to work for less and accept poor terms and conditions on pain of dismissal. That is the biggest tissue for the DM. That some working people have been able to resit this race to the bottom.

Exactly. I don't doubt anyone here, and indeed in the country as a whole doubts that nurses are badly paid (and badly treated too). However by focusing on another profession, one that is outside the public sector but still considered a public role, just fuels demands from certain quarters for a race to the bottom. If any future government suddenly decided to double nurse's wages, I've little doubt that newspapers like the Mail would suddenly be up in arms wanting to know who is going to pay for it.

Sadly in this country wage envy is one of the easiest prejudices to play upon. No mention of the responsibilities drivers have, not to mention the pressures for their "short week", just look these people get paid more than you for just sitting pressing levers. Its as much a sad reflection on how society in this country sees others as it is the bloody poor state of our media in general.

Correct.

Paying a nurse a train drivers salary would have the effect of increasing everyones tax contribution. Bit of a conudrum is that one.

A couple of pennies a week? Where do i sign?

 

[A0]

The BBC - who seem to be attacked form all sides for bias so must be spot on - Private Eye and sometimes MK news! Is that ok with you?

This would be the same BBC which at various times has just recycled what the Guardian is peddling would it?

WOW. Insert hand clap icon here. The Daily Mail got something right and did something good. Once.

It's done several, but as you don't read it by your own admission and take the line which many anti DM'ers do you wouldn't know that.

Well I could ask my friends for a copy of their pay slip. They work in finance, have similar if slightly less good qualifications to me, manage fewer staff and, perversely, manage less money than me. They get paid more than me. Lots more than me tbh.

By the same token i am sure my friends are paid considerably more than the cashier on the counter at the local Barclays or HSBC.

So basically what you're saying is no, because there are low wages in the finance sector but they just don't get the coverage?

 

[baz962]

A couple of pennies a week , I'm in.

 

[A0]

The counter argument is that retail has been able to bully and threaten staff to work for less and accept poor terms and conditions on pain of dismissal. That is the biggest tissue for the DM. That some working people have been able to resit this race to the bottom.

I've actually worked in retail in various roles - the margins are pretty slim in retail, certainly much less than the rail industry enjoys.

The retail companies which haven't managed their costs or kept up with customer demands generally no longer exist as retailers.