D1054 Western Governor?

[CosherB]

I saw this on the 'Western Rocks' rail tour at Buxton today. But according to Google, it was scrapped in 1977! Is it really 'Western Courier' with false name and number plates?

 

[nedchester]

I saw this on the 'Western Rocks' rail tour at Buxton today. But according to Google, it was scrapped in 1977! Is it really 'Western Courier' with false name and number plates?

No you've gone through a 35 year time warp but quite what a Western is doing at Buxton in 1975 is anyone's guess?!!!

 

[royaloak]

Courier isnt mainline registered so the only one it can be is D1015 Western Champion.

Link with proper number-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsrgr8/3937944987/

 

[CosherB]

Ah! This might explain it (click 'name plate offer'):

http://www.westernchampion.co.uk/

 

[Drimnagh Road]

What absoloute nonsense. Another reason to avoid the Western for me so. Fake numbers is an utter low, even if it is a way of generating extra revenue. Its pointless, as no matter what number is on the loco it is in reality D1015!

 

[D1001]

What absoloute nonsense. Another reason to avoid the Western for me so. Fake numbers is an utter low, even if it is a way of generating extra revenue. Its pointless, as no matter what number is on the loco it is in reality D1015!

We all know which engine it really is but if it raises much needed funds for the DTG, what possible harm can there be. Personally, I would love to see it running with Western Pathfinder plates as this was my favourite in the 1970's.

What are the other reasons you would avoid this engine? Always curious to know why people hate one class and love another. Have you seen it in action?

 

[CosherB]

Well, I'd like to see it in 'Desert Sand' and carrying D1000 'Western Enterprise' plates.

But I agree, any loco should really only ever carry it's correct plates. This one sure had me confused, until I discovered that 'offer' on 'Champion's' site.

If a society has two locos of the same class, in same livery (say, standard class 4 tanks, for instance) and they swapped plates, us enthusiasts wouldn't know. An ex-driver might be reminising about his days on the footplate of that loco, unaware it's a completely different machine.

I think this was done in the past by pre-BR rail companies, and by BR. There is some doubt as whether 'Evening Star' is the original loco. Of course, with old steam locos such as 4472 there's little of the original left anyway - swapping of major parts such as wheels and boilers was common practice.

 

[Drimnagh Road]

D1001, perhaps its unfair when I say "another reason to avoid this loco", another contributing reason in me not travelling on this loco would be more appropriate.

Indeed I think D1015 is a fantastic machine, made even more interesting in that it was out of action for decades. Well done to all involved. I have sampled it to Holyhead on 16th February 2008, and was mightily impressed.

However, I since have a boycott of Pathfinder Tours due to their ridiculous prices of railtours compared with others. We've been around and around this time and time again on other discussions in this section of Rail Forums, but out of principle, I am not paying £69 for any loco or railtour, no matter how special.

I've heard before about Preserved locos having higher overheads, fair enough. Yet Spitfire are taking a Deltic on a high mileage trip to London for a mere £49.50.

Back to topic, the reason why I don't like the idea of "other" numbers and nameplates on a particular loco is because it is not authentic. D1015 never wore the number D1054 in its working life so why should it carry it in preservation. Its a bit similar to 40145 in that the ludacrious livery it carries now is somehow seen as "preservation", it never ran in that livery.

So, prices aside. Even if Pathfinder or the DTG decided to use somebody cheaper, if D1015 was been dressed in unauthentic numbers and nameplates, that would be "another" contributing factor in my reasons for not travelling on D1015.

 

[Lampshade]

It's an impressive machine though, I went out to take a few shots of it yesterday and I nearly forgot to press the button as I was just like "WOW!"

 

[ailsa]

What absoloute nonsense. Another reason to avoid the Western for me so. Fake numbers is an utter low, even if it is a way of generating extra revenue. Its pointless, as no matter what number is on the loco it is in reality D1015!

I don't see the problem.

According to my book its actual TOPS number is 89416.

The BBC makes 'period dramas', people re-enact battles and other events gone by, and there are museums where we can go and see life as it used to be.

What's wrong with re-creating some history?

 

[Bedpan]

I think that its quite fun to do it if a loco's identity is changed to that of one of the same class that used to operate on a particular route that the tour is covering, or the identity is being changed for a particular purpose, such as 70013 being disguised as 70048 The Territorial Army 1908-1958 next week on a Help for Heroes event.

I'm not sure that I see the point of running D1015 to Buxton as D1054 though.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's all a bit of good fun really.

Why shouldn't a preserved loco occasionally run around masquerading as a different class member from time to time? It just adds a bit of variety. It's always a contentious issue as to whether the preservation movement is about preserving locomotives and rolling stock in an authentic livery and condition that it wore in service, or whether it's ok to mess about with liveries and things.

Personally, what's most important to me is that someone has put in the effort to keep these magnificent machines running, be it on preserved lines or out on the network, for us all to enjoy them in the 21st century. If the work has been put in to get a loco into operational condition and it is well looked after, then the owner/ owning group can paint the loco bright pink so long as it's running! Take "Deltic" 16 in Porterbrook purple for instance, plenty of people were adverse to that, but would you rather you had seen the loco, even painted purple, or that it had been scrapped all those years ago?

If it makes money for a cause, then it's a good thing.

 

[D1001]

I'm not having a dig but even at £69,50 for a whole day out, it seems good value. If you compare that with going to Stamford Bridge for 90 minutes of football, I would rather cough up the extra and have a full day out. To me, there is something particularly special about a class 52.

Number swaps will always be controversial and down to an individuals opinion. It isn't without precedent though - 6100 'Royal Scot' swapped identities with a classmate in better condition for a foreign tour and stayed that way (it is alleged). Also, didn't a Castle do the swap too? There is even some evidence to suggest one of the Pilot Scheme 24's did a swap, but I can't remember why or if it was deliberate. I'm sure there will be others that people could mention too. (Just remembered all the M7's and the EM2's that swapped). Come on, what else?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Couldn't help but notice the prices being batted about, for what is essentially an 'out and return' ticket encompassing many hours of travel, with specialist equipment up-front (ergo, more expensive parts and labour), and with higher steward-to-passenger ratio than one gets on typical FOC service-trains

And then I looked at my "bargain" FGW Paddington-Cardiff ticket, booked two whole months in advance, travelling off-peak. £80 for just two hours' travel.

Hmmm...

 

[royaloak]

There is even some evidence to suggest one of the Pilot Scheme 24's did a swap?

5005 swapped identities with 5025 due to a shortage of type 2 power following the runaway accident at Chester which wrote off 4 class 24s.
linky-

http://www.derbysulzers.com/24025.html

Very interesting read!

 

[theblackwatch]

I'm not sure that I see the point of running D1015 to Buxton as D1054 though.

I think the point has been explained via one of the links higher up this thread. Bear in mind that sponsors have already been found for names for 3 or 4 more tours with the loco later this year, and you have an extra income stream of several thousand (excuse the pun!) pounds to help fund the huge cost of operations on the main line.

 

[Bedpan]

Ah yes, I've seen the link now, quite an innovative way to make some extra well needed cash.

In that case, I can't see that it does any harm, although I did once almost come to blows with a mate of mine who swore blind that 34022 Exmoor had been preserved because he had seen it at the WSR with his own eyes! I later found out that 34027 was carrying the identity in conjunction with 50th anniversary of the Exmoor National Park,

 

[sprinterguy]

When I was younger Gresley A4 "Bittern" masquerading as 2509 "Silver Link" confused the hell out of me! It looked damn impressive though, shame the original went to the scrapman

Name and number changes have never been unheard of, seemingly especially so in steam days, look at the examples above. 6100 "Royal Scot" swapped identities permanently with 6152 "The Kings Dragoon Gaurdsman". And also on the LMS, 6220 "Coronation" swapped identities with "Duchess of Hamilton" for it's America trip. With steam locos, boilers and tenders and things were swapped between class members more than once in their lives, so with preserved steam there's not always a great deal that's original. It doesn't make the sight of a preserved steam loco working hard any less impressive.

For the mileage involved for any given railtour, the prices charged are very reasonable when compared to National Rail fare prices, given that railtours are using locos and stock that is often expensive to maintain. Changing names and numbers on preserved diesels to make money is an excellent way to raise some cash.

 

[royaloak]

{flippant mode}

Maybe its to advertise what parts they are buying with the profits from the tour, next we can have "Western Speedo cable" or "Western steam heat boiler", maybe not

{flippant mode}

 

[Vulcan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubLMQe_LPAI

This is the video I took of it (and a 185) coming through Mirfield last Saturday. I was hoping it'd come through on the centre fast line with both engines wide open, but nope it just cruised through silently.

 

[ailsa]

Maybe its to advertise what parts they are buying with the profits from the tour, next we can have "Western Speedo cable" or "Western steam heat boiler", maybe not

 

[D1001]

5005 swapped identities with 5025 due to a shortage of type 2 power following the runaway accident at Chester which wrote off 4 class 24s.
linky-

http://www.derbysulzers.com/24025.html

Very interesting read!

There has been an update since I was last on that excellent site - seems that there really was a swap, deliberate or otherwise. I'm still not clear, though, how a swap could really take place.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

I think you can take it to the bank Evening Star is original. There is a photograph of the welding taking place to fix the shunt damage, and the chances of two 9Fs being at crewe at the same time with the same damage and the same number on the cab side.... Well lets just say its pretty low. There were not 9Fs beings crapped at crewe at the time, so they would have had to be pretty creative about what to do with Evening Stars remains. I think they covered this 'story' in steam heritage magazine, and its got as much truth in it as the one about the Strategic reserve. Not that its not fun to speculate though.

BR was notorious for swapping though, I suppose the best known example if Bristol Castle swapping plates with Windsor Castle so they would have a serviceable locomotive for the Kings funeral. There was also some speculation that the Locomotive (BoB Class?) Winston Churchill was in fact another Bullied pacific that they had swapped the plates with due to it being broken. Probably nonsense, but these stories do tend to stick, and it did sometimes happen.

Didnt Oliver Cromwell become the Territorial army for a couple of weeks?

 

[royaloak]

There has been an update since I was last on that excellent site - seems that there really was a swap, deliberate or otherwise. I'm still not clear, though, how a swap could really take place.

Oh it was deliberate.
Things were much more regimented back then and it had been decreed that the first 20 had to be scrapped, now I have read somewhere that the bodyshell of the original 5025 was structurally un-usable so the decision was taken to transplant all the mechanical bits into the bodyshell of the original 5005, which was being stripped ready for scrapping, now to keep the bosses happy somebody took the decision to number the loco 5025 so as to comply with the dictat and quickly scrap the remains of the original 5025.

 

[Vulcan]

The GWR did it as well, on the Vale of Rheidol railway to get a new loco. 'spares' for number 9 were built that wouldn't have fitted the original loco, in actual fact Swindon had actually built a whole new loco, to their own design, and gave it the identity of the old one to keep the bean counters happy.

 

[moonrakerz]

I think you can take it to the bank Evening Star is original.......................

BR was notorious for swapping though, I suppose the best known example if Bristol Castle swapping plates with Windsor Castle so they would have a serviceable locomotive for the Kings funeral.

This is quite interesting - for those that haven't seen it before - are you really SURE about Evening Star ???

http://www.tyseleylocoworks.co.uk/tlw/4965_story.htm

 

[CosherB]

According to 'Railway Magazine', the 'Evening Star' mystery is far from solved. There is contrary 'evidence' to prove she is, or isn't, original.

 

[ungreat]

Im seeing this on a lot of threads..what exactly is a "gaurd"??

I'm assuming a Guard?

 

[Bedpan]

A Gaurd....isn't that an extraterrestrial visitor from the Planet Gauros? I can't see any reference to them in this thread though, perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Didnt Oliver Cromwell become the Territorial army for a couple of weeks?

Yes, wasn't the loco's name The Territorial Army 1908 - 1958, (without looking it up I think it may have been 70048 ) and 70013 had its identity changed in 2008 to commemorate the centenary.

 

[theblackwatch]

There's also the story of '08296' at Machen Quarry, which was explored on one of the gen groups and then in Today's Railways. It was eventually established that the loco carrying this number is really 08787.