anthony263
Established Member
Not sure if this has been reported but just found this on Nigel haris blog:
http://www.rail-magazine.com/news/default.asp?storyID=106&nid=4
http://www.rail-magazine.com/news/default.asp?storyID=106&nid=4
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D1015 wheelspining and ruining the track
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The Snap
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Do Westerns not have sanders?
generalvegitable
Member
damn I didn't know that our trains could do that!
anthony263
Established Member
From what has been said aprantly there was problems with the engines, so all of the power was going to the rear wheels of the locomotive
westcoaster
Established Member
ouch that will not do the wheel sets or track any good, but nice to see some sparks.
D107
Member
No that's not quite what was said in the article. The loco was running on one engine, therefore powering one (rear) bogie. It was certainly not powering one bogie from both engines. As for sanders, yes they do have them.
Never mind the rails, the wheelslip doesn't do wonders for the tyres either...
87015
Established Member
Its designed like that, hardly "problems" with the engine. Poor driving from a man not used to the class, pretty understandable. Poor reporting even by ned news standards.
Phoenix
Established Member
I'm sorry but Nigel Harris has no concept or grasp on the railways these days in my view the second something remotely interesting happens in the railway industry that man has to jump on board and talk about it like its a on going problem.
The DTG would like to see their pride and joy still running on the mainline as she is meant to so im sure lessons will be learnt on this occasion I mean he acts like they were pushing their luck as 87015 said (if he doesnt mind me stealing his words) "poor driving from a man not used to the class" and that's it and no more Nigel!
The DTG would like to see their pride and joy still running on the mainline as she is meant to so im sure lessons will be learnt on this occasion I mean he acts like they were pushing their luck as 87015 said (if he doesnt mind me stealing his words) "poor driving from a man not used to the class" and that's it and no more Nigel!
Sorry, Phoenix, but I disagree. We do not want requests for railtours to be greeted with arguments about safety or damage to the infrastructure. No, there haven't been many incidents of Westerns burning holes in tracks. But one is too many is they are dismissed from within the enthusiast community as a one-off. If the driver had little experience of the type, did he have a more experienced supervisor? If not, why not? If he did, why did it take so long to recognist that the train wasn't actually moving?
My take on it is that if we're going to criticise the Western crew for damaging the track, we should start on the likes of DBS/Freightliner/Advenza who persistently run their trains around the country with pretty nasty sounding wheelflats that don't do the track any good either... I bet you could attribute the vast majority of the TSRs around the country to their 50p wheels causing damage to the track!!! Don't see Mr Harris ranting about that though
Phoenix
Established Member
The Problem with that argument is that if you only use a expert driver then how to you train other drivers in the class ?
I understand that this shouldn't happen again for the obvious reasons but accidents do happen and there are apologies and various fines implemented.
My problem here is that how is preservation supposed to progress forward if every time an issue arises the Captain sensible (such as Nigel) jump up on the issue and make an example of the team in charge which is completely unfair as its easy to be an arm chair critic rather than a trained driver.
Accidents happen and will continue to do so sadly but as long as an open mind to these situations is kept we can avoid it from getting too serious.
Utter incompetence.The driver should have been removed from the footplate immediately.:-x
Lonewolf
Member
i agree that the driver should of been removed
even the passenger filming it noticed something was wrong (assuming here that he isnt a railwayman)
the driver surely must of known something was wrong when the engine moved then stopped and refused to move after.
even the passenger filming it noticed something was wrong (assuming here that he isnt a railwayman)
the driver surely must of known something was wrong when the engine moved then stopped and refused to move after.
Phoenix
Established Member
Has anyone actually credited the fact (if true) this incident happened in an area that this locomotive or any of it's class mates have been before.
As that is a large factor when talking about driver competency obviously this situation could have been avoided as can the majority of these sorts of incidents but sadly it didn't and in my opinion not due to bad driving on the whole but a cocktail of variables.
As that is a large factor when talking about driver competency obviously this situation could have been avoided as can the majority of these sorts of incidents but sadly it didn't and in my opinion not due to bad driving on the whole but a cocktail of variables.
Royston Vasey
Established Member
To the drivers on here, out of interest. How can the driver have controlled this wheel slip? Aside from sanding, is it simply a case of shutting off power then feeding it back in at a lower level, or is there more intricate technique in it than that?
Lonewolf
Member
i'm not a driver but i would say shut the throttle down and then feed the throttle in stages and give a good 10 15 seconds waiting time for an effect to happen before dialing the trottle up a notch
driver9000
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Wheelslip on the trains I drive (MU) is self correcting by automatic power dipping caused by a relay when there is a 7% difference detected by the speed probes, if this doesnt cure the problem -or at least lessen it then we are instructed to reduce power to a level where the wheelslip stops happening and open up slowly to counter any wheelslip problems.
Im sure a Western predates automatic Wheelslip detection systems and wheelslip would be controlled manually by keeping an eye on the speedo (erratic/jumpy?) and the ammeter (or hydraulic equivelent) to check for differences in the readings which is an indication of wheelslip occuring, using the power handle as needed to control the train. I have no working knowledge of Westerns and dont know what cab indications there are but there is usually a wheelslip light but judging by the way all wheels were going round in unison then the loco wont have detected that it was slipping. I can only go on what I know from my own experiences, but this wont be an isolated thing, come leaf fall you'll see rail burns the length and breadth of the network.
Im sure a Western predates automatic Wheelslip detection systems and wheelslip would be controlled manually by keeping an eye on the speedo (erratic/jumpy?) and the ammeter (or hydraulic equivelent) to check for differences in the readings which is an indication of wheelslip occuring, using the power handle as needed to control the train. I have no working knowledge of Westerns and dont know what cab indications there are but there is usually a wheelslip light but judging by the way all wheels were going round in unison then the loco wont have detected that it was slipping. I can only go on what I know from my own experiences, but this wont be an isolated thing, come leaf fall you'll see rail burns the length and breadth of the network.
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chuffchuff
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What he said /\ /\ /\
Also not knowing what guages are in the cab, my best guess is
If there is a wheelslip light, it will be lit all the time, as one engine
and two motors are not working.
Usually the speedometer works off one axle, if that's on the front
bogie, won't know about the rear.
Also not knowing what guages are in the cab, my best guess is
If there is a wheelslip light, it will be lit all the time, as one engine
and two motors are not working.
Usually the speedometer works off one axle, if that's on the front
bogie, won't know about the rear.
SouthEastern-465
Established Member
Bleming Hell you certainly saw the sparks fly there!
O L Leigh
Established Member
Suddenly we're all so quick to blame the driver.
It should be obvious to anyone who has seen the video that the driver would know that the loco was slipping. After all, if you've got the taps wide open and the train isn't moving then you cannot fail to notice that you've got a problem.
The problem is what you do about it. You can drop sand, but for that to work requires a certain amount of forward motion so that the sand ends up under the driving wheels. Dropping sand before you're moving just creates little piles of sand under the nozzles which won't help you gain any grip. Shutting off the power and then notching up slowly is often a good strategy, but if this particular Western was already sick with one engine down and the driver was attempting to start a heavy train up a rising gradient (as he was) then a certain amount of power would be needed in any case just to get the thing rolling. If this level of required power was enough to break grip on the rail then the driver is in a bad situation. Give it too little and the train won't pull away. Give it enough and the wheels spin up. What option do you take?
As odd as it sounds, there are times when spinning up the wheels will generate just enough grip to get you moving. Modern trains don't have this option as WSP jumps on any slipping by cutting the power almost immediately. However, all you need is a little forward motion in order that the sanders can be brought into play.
As a driver myself, I don't take kindly to folk who have no concept of the challenges of the job criticising one of my colleagues. Like Driver9000 I have no experience or knowledge of Westerns, and for that reason alone I defer to the expertise of those who do. However, I don't see anyone on this forum qualified enough to criticise the actions of the driver of this particular loco on this particular day. Therefore I respectfully suggest that folk don't rush to any judgements about the driving techniques on display.
O L Leigh
It should be obvious to anyone who has seen the video that the driver would know that the loco was slipping. After all, if you've got the taps wide open and the train isn't moving then you cannot fail to notice that you've got a problem.
The problem is what you do about it. You can drop sand, but for that to work requires a certain amount of forward motion so that the sand ends up under the driving wheels. Dropping sand before you're moving just creates little piles of sand under the nozzles which won't help you gain any grip. Shutting off the power and then notching up slowly is often a good strategy, but if this particular Western was already sick with one engine down and the driver was attempting to start a heavy train up a rising gradient (as he was) then a certain amount of power would be needed in any case just to get the thing rolling. If this level of required power was enough to break grip on the rail then the driver is in a bad situation. Give it too little and the train won't pull away. Give it enough and the wheels spin up. What option do you take?
As odd as it sounds, there are times when spinning up the wheels will generate just enough grip to get you moving. Modern trains don't have this option as WSP jumps on any slipping by cutting the power almost immediately. However, all you need is a little forward motion in order that the sanders can be brought into play.
As a driver myself, I don't take kindly to folk who have no concept of the challenges of the job criticising one of my colleagues. Like Driver9000 I have no experience or knowledge of Westerns, and for that reason alone I defer to the expertise of those who do. However, I don't see anyone on this forum qualified enough to criticise the actions of the driver of this particular loco on this particular day. Therefore I respectfully suggest that folk don't rush to any judgements about the driving techniques on display.
O L Leigh
JustinStacey.x
Member
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Leigh,
What do you think you would have done in this situation? Sounds like the driver in that video put it into notch 2 or 3 and then just left it.
What do you think you would have done in this situation? Sounds like the driver in that video put it into notch 2 or 3 and then just left it.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Even as a driver it's hard to know precisely what's happening here.
As I said already I have no knowledge or experience of Westerns, but it appears from what others have said that each bogie is powered independently from one of the two engines. This means that in the event of having to shut-down an engine, the loco is only able to drive through one of it's two bogies.
All that aside, what I would have done would be to apply just enough power to inch the train forward so that I could get sand under the driving wheels. However, if it wasn't possible to move the train at all without the wheels spinning up then you have effectively "stalled". This leaves two options. You can either get permission to "set back" to a location with a less severe gradient and/or better grip so that you can take a run at it, or you could get down and put sand down under the wheels manually.
O L Leigh
As I said already I have no knowledge or experience of Westerns, but it appears from what others have said that each bogie is powered independently from one of the two engines. This means that in the event of having to shut-down an engine, the loco is only able to drive through one of it's two bogies.
All that aside, what I would have done would be to apply just enough power to inch the train forward so that I could get sand under the driving wheels. However, if it wasn't possible to move the train at all without the wheels spinning up then you have effectively "stalled". This leaves two options. You can either get permission to "set back" to a location with a less severe gradient and/or better grip so that you can take a run at it, or you could get down and put sand down under the wheels manually.
O L Leigh
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