My bad, I forgot to crop the relevant part in the quote.
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Cycling on the train...your thoughts.
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My bad, I forgot to crop the relevant part in the quote.
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I am afraid you are shaped by your experiences. I'm not making it up when I say in my experience I've had more abuse off cyclists than any other. Colleagues have been abused etc too. Provide a safe place at the station to lock them up, as many are now doing, and tell large groups to shell out for a van rather than getting in the way for free.
If you point out that they're obstructing their fellow fare payers, you get an aggressive 'what am I meant to do with it then'. 'Take it off' leads to threats of violence. Forget them, they aren't worth the minor revenue flow provided versus hassle.
That's a fair point. I have seen some cyclists go wild at staff before and it isn't fun. But then I've seen the flip side where a guard has verbally abused passengers. I've actually had a dispatcher at Bath Spa damage one of my bikes due to his blatant and clear hatred for cyclists. He even admits it if you ask him lol.
What gets me is guards refusing bicycles with reservations...defeats the entire object of the game.
I do feel for staff like yourself who have to deal with abusive passengers but then you did your cause no favours with turning away the chap who'd been refused many times before.
The way I see it we are all fare paying passengers and as such I wouldn't mind if TOCs charged us extra. IF it gave us the right to take a cycle on.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
But I am a fare paying passenger, and I pay more than most of the whiners on off-peak tickets
But I am a fare paying passenger, and I pay more than most of the whiners on off-peak tickets
Agreed. Plus the whole argument of space isn't valid on HSTs and the like as the bikes aren't in with the pax.
So you would happily make me as a guard chuck other passengers off who are occupying the bike space , just so you and your bike can travel ?
If I had payed for a bicycle to travel with me, then yes. Obviously there would need to be sensible limits on numbers of bicycles allowed during certain time periods.
I dont think that would work on commuter services , what happens if 10 people all go to a TVM and buy a ticket giving them the Right to take their bike on the train . The TOC then has to honor this .
Personally I dont support cyclists having any more of a Right than anybody else to get on the train . You are essentially carrying a large item of luggage .
I have turned people away from boarding my train before because it is so Busy . You are no more or no less important than other passengers and so will be treated the same .
You need to take personal accountability for the fact that you are carrying a large item of luggage with limited space on the train
If there is room for you then I will happily let you board .I will even help you secure it if you like . But if you turn up to a packed commuter train and people have taken up the storage space for bikes then tough luck .
You are welcome to ask people if they will voluntarily leave for you , but I wont be making anybody do so .
That's fair enough, I do agree with you in the sense that what I have is a large item of luggage and I am happy to have it treated as such. I don't see why mums with non folding pushchairs are treated higher than us when generally the kids aren't in them and they take up just as much space. So yes we should all be treated equally.
Out of curiosity what's your views on reservations then chap? I see FGW repeatedly refuse to accept reservations but on the flip side I've seen AGA actually make announcements for those who aren't reserved to remove their bicycles.
Same with a mum with a non folding push chair . If she turns up a packed commuter service and demands space on the train be made I will decline that request and point out that she is free to ask people to leave herself .
If the service is busy I will also make any with folding pushchairs fold them up if it is necessary to fit everyone on . Anybody that "doesn't know " how to fold it will be left behind . I actually had an incident with a woman who claimed not to know how to fold her buggy . I had 2 bikes on in the bike space and a non folding buggy in the wheelchair bay so no more room to safely carry her buggy . I also had 2 buggies I had made fold up on the luggage rack . I requested she fold hers , and she said she didn't know how to . Upon informing her that the next service was in an hour and she should use that time to learn how to fold the buggy she suddenly remembered how to fold it
.Some might say that is a bit harsh however she was trying it on because even I could see how to fold that buggy and I am a young guy with no kids who has never needed to fold a buggy .
Cycle reservations , My toc does not have them ,and i dont know how it would work with commuter services however I think for long distance services with segregated bike storage they are good . Tocs that do them should honor them and if necessary make any non reserved cycles leave the train . Personally I think some long distance services should have mandatory cycle reservation so that if your bike is not reserved it doesn't go on ,tihs would only work with stock that had segregated bike storage . The only stick I work with this really is 155's and 158's with the shuttered area on both . Would save the hassle of people getting halfway through their journey to then be told they cant go any further because someone has reserved a bike from here .
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The regulations allow for refusal of bikes and non folding pushchairs - I've done both (no doubt risking my career for trial by mumsnet and national papers for the latter). I try and avoid it but it's necessary. I refused the bike because I had a class 153 and people stood all the way along the aisle - I wasn't chucking anyone off to get the bike on. I lost 15 minutes en route in extended dwell as it was.
Reservations can be cancelled by the guard - seat and bike. You might be able to get compensation if yours is not accepted.
Reservations can be cancelled by the guard - seat and bike. You might be able to get compensation if yours is not accepted.
I am relieved to know you are a fair guard and I commend that.
Strange how she suddenly remembered eh
The reservations policy is odd, every TOC has a different policy and they swap and change on what seems a daily basis. But on longer services they are almost mandatory on FGW services. I agree with your view on longer services and hope those that do offer them come up with better systems to communicate those reservations to train crew and platform staff.
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Could have mentioned in your other post it was a 153, I'd have agreed with you
. They are absolutely the worst units for bikes and pushchairs.I appreciate some cyclists concerns though because not all railway staff are as Fair .I am relieved to know you are a fair guard and I commend that.
Strange how she suddenly remembered eh
The reservations policy is odd, every TOC has a different policy and they swap and change on what seems a daily basis. But on longer services they are almost mandatory on FGW services. I agree with your view on longer services and hope those that do offer them come up with better systems to communicate those reservations to train crew and platform staff.
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Could have mentioned in your other post it was a 153, I'd have agreed with you
Unfortunately sometimes a cyclist I am refusing to carry due to lack of space wont see the unfold able buggy I refused at the last stop or whatever and will just feel like they are being picket on . Just like the woman with the buggy wont see the bike I have refused and will think I am a horrible person .
Like I said people need to have personal accountability for the fact that they are carrying a large item of luggage and so in peak times on commuter services they might be denied travel . Just like if I just appeared at the aiport with a bike and expected to board my flight I might have trouble .
As for the reservations .The information guards are given about reservations for seats should include something about bikes . And platform staff should be given a daily sheet listing reservations along with the information they are likely to get about assistance requests for vulnerable passengers .
or cyclists should get given a separate ticket just for their bike reservation . and this should be presented before their bike is loaded
An innovative,if somewhat pricey,way of getting more people to ride bikes to/from their station would be to employ something like a cycle share scheme. Ride your cycle to the station, pay £1 a day for a very secure storage unit and then when you get to the other end you get to use a cycle to get your from the station to your place of work.
I am using London as an example here even though it does have its cycle hire scheme and only for main terminal stations. Yes, those who come into places like Paddington and Marylebone probably wouldnt use it to get to the city as the tube is faster but it would alleviate even the need for taking a fold up cycle on the train.
I am using London as an example here even though it does have its cycle hire scheme and only for main terminal stations. Yes, those who come into places like Paddington and Marylebone probably wouldnt use it to get to the city as the tube is faster but it would alleviate even the need for taking a fold up cycle on the train.
causton
Established Member
This is what seems to happen anyway with Southern/FCC with trains to/from Brighton. At the busiest times bikes are banned, then it is first come first served for spaces per train!
edwin_m
Veteran Member
There are some moves in this direction such as the Cycle Hub at Nottingham (both storage and hire) and the Bike Go (?) at places like Altrincham (hire only). From casual observation neither strikes me as a hive of activity.
Buttsy
Established Member
I remember a time when you could get bikes on any train without any issues as there was usually room in the guard's van on any service to store a bike alongside the mailbags. The loss of Royal Mail traffic on standard trains was the death knell of these. You could even get a bike on a bubble car thanks to the guard's 'van'.
Pacers and 150/0 Sprinters were originally built with lockable areas for mailbags which would have doubled as a bike area as well, had the mail traffic remained on passenger services.
Pacers and 150/0 Sprinters were originally built with lockable areas for mailbags which would have doubled as a bike area as well, had the mail traffic remained on passenger services.
Trog
Established Member
But I am a fare paying passenger, and I pay more than most of the whiners on off-peak tickets
As much as the four of them whose potential space you are taking up?
Wonder why theyre not busy then? Are they advertised heavily? Id rather cycle to work meself but I really dont trust traffic in London that much on the route I would have to take
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I don't know how big your bike is, but the only four people who would fit in the space my road bike takes up are under-5s.
I've paid a lot of money for my ticket- far more than the whingers on their railcard-discounted off-peak travelcards- and if we're going to ban bikes because "they're too big and might hurt someone" then I'd like to see grandma with her suitcase the size of Sweden banned too. And the bloke who takes his guitar on the train every morning. And the harassed mother with the buggy. And the other grandma with her bloody tartan shopping trolley. Not to mention the kid who's off to a festival with his muddy rucksack filled with booze. Or the young Chinese lass who's got eleventy billion shopping bags on her way home from Bicester Village.
In fact, when we take your point to the logical conclusion, we should ban all passengers from trains. They just get in the way.
Clip said:
The cycle hire schemes are expensive, and the bikes are heavy and slow and rubbish. The Barclays Cycle Hire scheme is just about OK because there are enough docking stations to make it hassle-free, but the other schemes don't have so many docking stations and charge an extortionate membership fee.
I've not paid £500 for a bike to then pay another £50 membership fee for a bike that's not as good.
You have indeed paid a lot of money for your ticket but nothing at all for your bike. As I've already pointed out, on my trains anything that is a hazard to emergency egress goes, luggage, pushchair or bike. On to the platform if need be. My final tactic in the event of non compliance and abuse is to point out that there are bins in the middle of all my carriages. In the unlikely event one of these catches fire, how would you like to consider that you will potentially be responsible for the deaths of half the carriage if they can't get out past your mountain. If if still doesn't work, it is time for removal (which I am authorised to carry out as the train guard in accordance with the bye laws) and you make a choice on whether to follow it. Any further issues and I will do my level best to have a constable remove you with extreme prejudice.
I always take pictures of said obstructions on my phone by the way and they go in with my report so I can't be disciplined for it.
Contrary to my online persona, I do actually remain polite throughout
I always take pictures of said obstructions on my phone by the way and they go in with my report so I can't be disciplined for it.
Contrary to my online persona, I do actually remain polite throughout
Many bikes, thanks to pedals and handlebars, easily take up the space that could be used by 3-4 people. That's a fact. Of course, those people will be quite squashed up and uncomfortable, but that happens - and not just in the peak.
Our buggy probably takes up the space of 2-3 people too, which is why it's folded, but even then it has to be stored somewhere. I'll often stand in the vestibule and hold it upright, and that means it takes the space of 1 or possibly even 2 people. Suitcases the same, although the owner of the case might be able to sit or lean over it to reduce the impact.
I can move my folded buggy easily. A suitcase can also be moved fairly easily. Neither block the aisles, unless someone is particularly inconsiderate. A bike will often do this. Yes, it might be the design of some stock, such that a bike has no choice but to go sideways or diagonal - and block progress through the train, but it still doesn't seem like a valid excuse to put people at risk and argue that it's the fault of the train.
Our buggy probably takes up the space of 2-3 people too, which is why it's folded, but even then it has to be stored somewhere. I'll often stand in the vestibule and hold it upright, and that means it takes the space of 1 or possibly even 2 people. Suitcases the same, although the owner of the case might be able to sit or lean over it to reduce the impact.
I can move my folded buggy easily. A suitcase can also be moved fairly easily. Neither block the aisles, unless someone is particularly inconsiderate. A bike will often do this. Yes, it might be the design of some stock, such that a bike has no choice but to go sideways or diagonal - and block progress through the train, but it still doesn't seem like a valid excuse to put people at risk and argue that it's the fault of the train.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The 333s in West Yorkshire have a hook on the ceiling that you can hang a bike from, and it takes up the room of one single sideways seat. That's probably the best thought-out piece of design that I've seen in a long time, and should have been used elsewhere on other Siemens trains. The bike rack on the 185s is a joke, taking up three tip-up seats, but at least they've put something in. There is no rack at all on a LM 350, though I'm assuming it is different on a TPE 350.
If a train is crush loaded then bikes shouldn't be on it. That's why they're banned from London peak trains. But most of the time the trains are not crush loaded, it's just other passengers being a pain in the backside (the ones who take the tip up seats by the disabled toilet on a half-empty train and then moan when you ask them to move getting my goat the most).
I'm yet to meet rail staff who have objected to the bike- probably because I'm sensible- but anyone who has oversized luggage should be ejected long before my bike is. It's funny how so many people complain about bikes yet I can't recall the last time the National Rail conditions on luggage were actually enforced.
jonmorris, if you've never seen idiots with suitcases bigger than my car you want to try a summer Saturday TPE from Manchester Airport, or any weekday afternoon train from London to Newcastle.
If a train is crush loaded then bikes shouldn't be on it. That's why they're banned from London peak trains. But most of the time the trains are not crush loaded, it's just other passengers being a pain in the backside (the ones who take the tip up seats by the disabled toilet on a half-empty train and then moan when you ask them to move getting my goat the most).
I'm yet to meet rail staff who have objected to the bike- probably because I'm sensible- but anyone who has oversized luggage should be ejected long before my bike is. It's funny how so many people complain about bikes yet I can't recall the last time the National Rail conditions on luggage were actually enforced.
jonmorris, if you've never seen idiots with suitcases bigger than my car you want to try a summer Saturday TPE from Manchester Airport, or any weekday afternoon train from London to Newcastle.
table38
Established Member
Worse than that, it's four tip-up seats in Coach C! Imagine the looks of disgust when a cyclist gets on a busy train and expects four people to stand so they can bring their bike on!
I preferred the arrangement on the 158s where the bike area was out in the vestibule.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
XC Voyagers also have hooks on the ceiling, in the former shop area now converted into a large luggage rack. They can carry two bikes one side of the gangway but only one on the other - the compartment there doesn't seem to be any smaller but part of the space is obstructed by a heater.
I think the tip-up seats arrangement is a good one. There is room for bicycles off-peak to be placed without obscuring the gangway, but this space can be used by commuters during peak.
table38
Established Member
That's the theory, but in practice there seem to be plenty of commuters trying to use bikes during the peaks...
I still think a dedicated cycle space (like on the 158s) would cause fewer arguments. OK, people would still stand in the cycle space on a busy train, but at least when a cyclist gets on, he can point out that it is a cycle space. With tip-up seats (already occupied), there really needs to be a big sign saying "please give up these seats"... - actually maybe there is! I shall take a look next time
(Oh, and if the cyclist sits down, they are actually using 5 seats
)On TPE? There is a sign, though not particularly big.T..., there really needs to be a big sign saying "please give up these seats"... - actually maybe there is! I shall take a look next time
Plenty of bikes are taken on FCC trains in the peak. How? Because they lie at the gate about where they're going. Sometimes they're asked to show their tickets and told they can't take the bike - but in many cases they've already gone through and then tell staff to stick it.
And not once have I seen any staff physically stop them, assuming (and saying) they'll get caught on the train.
Maybe they do, maybe they don't.
And not once have I seen any staff physically stop them, assuming (and saying) they'll get caught on the train.
Maybe they do, maybe they don't.
Same probably happens with SWT, they allow bikes during the peaks if you are board at or travelling to outside a certain area. Guards are limited in what they can do if they become aware of cycles as delays to the train must be avoided wherever possible.
What annoys me the most is the cyclists not making any attempt to find the cycle space, which on SWT is clearly marked on the door, and instead block the doors. Worst one I saw was on one of the two Reading-Waterloo via Hounslow services on a weekday, where Putney was the first station for a long time with the platform on the right. Someone had left the cycle in the doorway and hadn't realised people wanted to board, who had to use another door.
At least someone hadn't locked their bike to a door handle, I saw a photo once of that happening on a 444 :roll:
http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/cycle-policy.aspx
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