Current or future fuel issues

[Neilo09]

I was just curious how heritage railways are going to cope if fuel becomes a problem, Are they normally well stocked ?

 

[NER1621]

If oil-based fuel stocks do become a serious problem than I suspect heritage railways will be fairly low down the priority list for supplies.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Coal has been a problem for several years - now the Welsh coalmines have all closed I understand the best steaming coal comes from Russia - or would do, if it wasn't embargoed.

 

[Lost property]

If oil-based fuel stocks do become a serious problem than I suspect heritage railways will be fairly low down the priority list for supplies.

And for visitors

 

[Forty29]

There is another thread on this subject under "How viable are preserved railways" under Railtours and Preservation which explains how fuel is priced and supplied from post #548.
Sorry l'm not tech savvy to link the thread here!

 

[adc82140]

If oil-based fuel stocks do become a serious problem than I suspect heritage railways will be fairly low down the priority list for supplies.

As none of our oil comes from the Gulf, then supply won't be a problem for the UK. It's the cost that will become an issue.

 

[DarloRich]

Surely if fuel becomes such an issue the bigger problem will be people getting to the railway!

 

[John Luxton]

Surely if fuel becomes such an issue the bigger problem will be people getting to the railway!

I must admit it is something that is forming in the back of my mind as I have a few trips planned in the next few months to Cornwall / Devon / Wales - i can cope with it being expensive to a point but rationing schemes and big queues on forecourts whilst people panic buy is a different matter.

UK and Europe cannot just sit on the fence over this as we have been doing. Supplies need securing and perhaps a combined task force sent to the Gulf of Hormuz is required. We might not have started this conflict but I think it would be in our own interests and that of the global economy including heritage rail to get it finished by nutralising the threat or at least escorting shipping through.

Fingers crossed it is all over soon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As none of our oil comes from the Gulf, then supply won't be a problem for the UK. It's the cost that will become an issue.

I read yesterday, though forget where, that none of our petrol does, but some of the diesel (refined in Europe and imported) does come from the Gulf. So there may be diesel shortages (though not down to zero) but should not be petrol shortages. This is quite inconvenient for more things than just preserved railways of course. The price will however certainly go up, I think we'll be looking at prices similar to the early-2020s spike, namely around £2/litre, though inflation means that's less of a hit than it was then (well, a bit).

I don't know how easy it would be to switch our domestic refineries from petrol to diesel, though?

 

[John Luxton]

I read yesterday, though forget where, that none of our petrol does, but some of the diesel (refined in Europe and imported) does come from the Gulf. So there may be diesel shortages (though not down to zero) but should not be petrol shortages. This is quite inconvenient for more things than just preserved railways of course. The price will however certainly go up, I think we'll be looking at prices similar to the early-2020s spike, namely around £2/litre, though inflation means that's less of a hit than it was then (well, a bit).

I don't know how easy it would be to switch our domestic refineries from petrol to diesel, though?

The other solution would be to reduce VAT and fuel duty. Some commentators have pointed out that whilst the base price of oil rises the government receives added revenue from VAT and fuel duty. Apparently quite a few countries are now reported to have reduced VAT on fuel to keep prices down. Given the UK government keep stating they want to keep inflation down perhaps such a move to cut VAT say to 5% might make sense even if those who are obsessed with using tax and duty to reach net zero goals might be a bit unhappy.

 

[Mike Machin]

I read yesterday, though forget where, that none of our petrol does, but some of the diesel (refined in Europe and imported) does come from the Gulf. So there may be diesel shortages (though not down to zero) but should not be petrol shortages. This is quite inconvenient for more things than just preserved railways of course. The price will however certainly go up, I think we'll be looking at prices similar to the early-2020s spike, namely around £2/litre, though inflation means that's less of a hit than it was then (well, a bit).

I don't know how easy it would be to switch our domestic refineries from petrol to diesel, though?

Yes if the present issues with supplies from the Middle East are not resolved in the next couple of days it’s highly likely that there will be a shortage of diesel next month. Whilst the UK has sufficient refining capacity to manufacture all of its petrol requirement - in fact we are in a position to actually export some refined petroleum, the UK is reliant on imports for refined diesel and aviation fuel.

The UK imports around 10% of its diesel requirements direct from refineries in the Gulf, but imports between 25% and 40% of diesel from other overseas refineries, mainly in Europe. Most of these import from their crude from the Gulf, so there will very likely be some quite noticeable problems with diesel going forward. The government will need to prioritise essential road haulage, emergency services (most ambulances and all fire appliances are diesel powered), then public transport. Private motoring and heritage uses will be well down the pecking order.

Luckily, most of our heritage railways will be able to resort to coal-fired steam traction. Looking much further ahead, the long-term solution has to be electrification.

 

[Ted633]

The other solution would be to reduce VAT and fuel duty. Some commentators have pointed out that whilst the base price of oil rises the government receives added revenue from VAT and fuel duty. Apparently quite a few countries are now reported to have reduced VAT on fuel to keep prices down. Given the UK government keep stating they want to keep inflation down perhaps such a move to cut VAT say to 5% might make sense even if those who are obsessed with using tax and duty to reach net zero goals might be a bit unhappy.

Fuel duty is a fixed amount per litre, no additional revenue is being gained there.
But yes, extra income is being made on the VAT element. A cut to 5% VAT seems a bit drastic (and that revenue will have to be made up elsewhere), however I would support a slight reduction to keep fuel prices 'as they were'. The problem is removing said reductions afterwards. We still have the temporary duty cut from the Ukraine crisis in play!

 

[Neilo09]

Can heritage diesels run on HVO ?

 

[JohnofWessex]

99.6% of the Indian Broad Gauge lines are electrified compared with 38% of the national network here

 

[John Luxton]

A cut to 5% VAT seems a bit drastic (and that revenue will have to be made up elsewhere)

5% would put in in line with that charged on domestic fuel if we had a rate of 5% VAT on all fuels things could be smoothed out by transferring it to general taxation. The money would still be coming in from duty.

Our fuel is well over taxed anyway. I noticed report the other day people in the US were complaining that their fuel has gone over $4 a gallon!

Given the current exchange rate and that our fuel is priced in litres people in the US get a much better deal even at crisis prices.

 

[Tetragon213]

Come to think of it, "alternatives to existing fossil fuel stocks" would make for a pretty interesting post-grad research project.

Can heritage diesels run on HVO ?

I think that would depend on the engines you were trying to run them in, but I would expect most of them would run with some grumbling and adjustment. I'm not entirely convinced, however, that something as highly strung as a Deltic engine would appreciate a different fuel.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Our fuel is well over taxed anyway. I noticed report the other day people in the US were complaining that their fuel has gone over $4 a gallon!

which is about 80p/litre. (US dollar is about 75p, 3.78 litres in a US gallon)