Current Northern services which could or should have first class

[quantinghome]

I'd be up for sticking a first class carriage on Leeds-Carlisle, but it would need to be coupled with a major marketing exercise to establish it in a similar way to (say) the Glacier Express. But much as I love the austere views of the Northern Dales with the grey clouds scudding overhead, it may not have the same draw as the Alps. And as other posters have said, maybe this market is already catered for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rubbish TPE is little more than a Regional service

It's no less IC than CrossCountry is (and is used in similar ways). Indeed, the rolling stock is now of a considerably higher standard than XC's. Most of it would easily get an IC in Germany, with Avanti and LNER being ICE.

It is certainly true that in the single 185 days First Class was just South East style paying to avoid overcrowding, but these days things have moved on. And while the 80x First is, er, the same as every other 80x First, the 185 First is quite nice, and the Mk5a First is one of the best I've seen anywhere, it has a real luxury feel to it.

and the East Coast Edinburgh service will likely be little more than a token service in future possibly acting as a glorified stopper.

The Edinburgh service isn't needed for it to be what it is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2021 ==

I'd be up for sticking a first class carriage on Leeds-Carlisle, but it would need to be coupled with a major marketing exercise to establish it in a similar way to (say) the Glacier Express. But much as I love the austere views of the Northern Dales with the grey clouds scudding overhead, it may not have the same draw as the Alps. And as other posters have said, maybe this market is already catered for.

It certainly attracts coach tours in the same way as the West Highland might, and if First was only a small uplift, say £10, I reckon you'd sell quite a bit of it to them. I reckon it may well be the only English route where ScotRail's "Highland Explorer" 153s would actually work quite well - decent cycle demand, too. You'd certainly do OK with one attached to DalesRail.

Of course as you say that private operation is already doing it, but if they stopped Northern would perhaps do better because they are running the train anyway - an extra bit of diesel and the cost of a couple of tarted-up 153s (which could be purchased at scrap value as they aren't needed anywhere else) would be next to nothing. Or even use half-156s for the bigger windows.

 

[37424]

Please do have a go travelling on the Man Air-Edinburgh and Liverpool - Newcastle services, especially Thurs-Sun. First class always busy, services busy - and it's a regional intercity service where those travelling expect first class and catering. God knows how many questions we've answered in the last few months about it on services.

Do they I doubt the vast majority do, given the fairly limited 1st class on offer its not difficult to look busy in 1st, but given the overall capacity of the train its not really justified on the main TPE routes and the length of journey the majority of which I expect will be less than 2 hours, maybe on the West Coast Services which probably ought to go to another operator anyway.

Before covid I used core North TPE services extensively and the capacity would be better used for standard class in my view

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2021 ==

It's no less IC than CrossCountry is (and is used in similar ways). Indeed, the rolling stock is now of a considerably higher standard than XC's. Most of it would easily get an IC in Germany, with Avanti and LNER being ICE.

It is certainly true that in the single 185 days First Class was just South East style paying to avoid overcrowding, but these days things have moved on. And while the 80x First is, er, the same as every other 80x First, the 185 First is quite nice, and the Mk5a First is one of the best I've seen anywhere, it has a real luxury feel to it.



The Edinburgh service isn't needed for it to be what it is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2021 ==

You don't need 1st class for a possible cut back future timetable of Manchester to York instead of Newcastle and Liverpool to Newcastle instead of Edinburgh.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Have Northern got rid of the vinyls on the S&C 158s that partly obscured the views out of the windows?

 

[skyhigh]

Have Northern got rid of the vinyls on the S&C 158s that partly obscured the views out of the windows?

They went in 2016.

 

[peteb]

The problems with introducing first class, (over-crowding in standard made worse being the main one) include not having the on board staff to police it. Better to provide dedicated luggage facilities: airport traffic tends to fill vacant seats with cabin bags which don't fit on overhead luggage racks thus squeezing passengers further together.

 

[Mogz]

Why this obsession with first class? Chiltern Railways which serves Buckinghamshire, one of the poshest parts of SE England, doesn't have any first class provision on its trains. The same should apply for South-Eastern, Southern, Great Northern and Thameslink, as well as LNW/WM trains and Greater Anglia trains (apart from the Lonodon-Norwich intercity service).

Chiltern provides a high standard in…er… Standard!

If all trains in the UK had the same standard of seating, with plenty of tables and decent leg-room, there would be little demand for First Class.

 

[peteb]

Chiltern provides a high standard in…er… Standard!

If all trains in the UK had the same standard of seating, with plenty of tables and decent leg-room, there would be little demand for First Class.

Agreed, especially their Silver trains (which actually do have "business" class, i.e. first(ish) class) but why anyone would need that is beyond me. The only time I used it I had some businessman making loud lengthy phone calls all the way to Marylebone, even more intrusive as we were the only two in that carriage.

 

[liamf656]

I work with catering and alongside first class on East Midlands Railway, and I’ll just throw my tuppence in from experience:

- I don’t think Northern could justify having catering or first class on any route, there simply isn’t the need for it. I can’t think of any routes long enough to warrant it. For example: Those travelling from London almost always want to buy refreshments for their 60+ minute long journeys, however those who board at Leicester for stations north will say no the majority of the time, just because their journeys will be 20-60 minutes long. It’ll be difficult for Northern to even break even with this in mind

- Northern portrays themselves as a regional operator, offering high frequency stop/start trains in some areas, this isn’t suitable for a catering service. EMR only offer catering on the London services and Liverpool-Norwich and Nottingham-Skegness. They tried it on other regional services and it didn’t work at all.

- Staffing levels will need to be altered, a whole lot of people will need to be employed for catering and first class, something which is extremely difficult in today’s world. EMR have cut back massively on catering and some operators have ditched catering altogether, so it would be controversial for Northern to commence such a service, especially if they might be struggling for staff in other areas

- Quite a bit of money will need to be spent on retrofitting first class in current rolling stock, and that’ll restrict which routes these run on. One quirk Northern has is that the current rolling stock is very flexible, and adding first class on a select few units will give diagrammers migraines!

- Overcrowding is an issue with Northern, and reducing space for First Class and attempting to offer a food service would be nigh on impossible. I’m able to open the buffet bar if my Meridian is full and standing, however if I’m on a 158 to Liverpool and that’s full and standing, I will be stuck in one place with my trolley and struggle to make any sales

 

[paul1609]

I would probably consider providing 1st on the Windermeres as it is money for old rope and tourists will pay for it. The Windermeres are very popular with foreign tourists, particularly Chinese/Japanese - if your flight has cost you a grand or more, 10-20 quid to upgrade is nowt.

I can't think of any other Northern routes where it would really make sense, so the problem is that that would give you a microfleet. That said, if a microfleet was deliberately procured for those services (e.g. bi-mode, battery or bionic duckweed) then putting in a short First Class section (perhaps the cab end and half the main saloon as per 321s and the likes) would be worthwhile in my book.

Catering would be unlikely to make money, it's not that long a journey so people buy before they board. Much as it's annoying when you board at Ulverston because it's nowhere near any shops!

The Windermere branch needs conversion in to South Lakes tramlink. Existing branch extended with street running on to Ambleside and a loop at Grasmere. A branch from Windermere down to the Lake.
The trams could have Golden Dafodil class a bit like Gold class on the Dubai Marina trams.

 

[LittleAH]

Before covid I used core North TPE services extensively and the capacity would be better used for standard class in my view

Difference is now, there's brand new 5 car trains equip with the ability to provide hot food, which was being looked at seriously until Covid started and I imagine this will be looked at again. And 185s largely run 6 car. The capacity issue by and large has been sorted.

Not providing first class on what are intercity journeys between Liverpool and Newcastle would be astonishingly stupid. These are busy with passengers, most notably Thurs-Sun currently as people who are making certain special leisure trips tend to upgrade. As for Northern, none of their services warrant it.

 

[Philip]

As for Northern, none of their services warrant it.

I think you could make a case for the Windermere, Leeds-Nottingham and perhaps even the Manchester-Crewe stopper; the latter because it serves some of the richest areas in the country (like Wilmslow and Alderley Edge) and so it might tempt a few people if the standard class is busy.

 

[Neptune]

I think you could make a case for the Windermere, Leeds-Nottingham and perhaps even the Manchester-Crewe stopper; the latter because it serves some of the richest areas in the country (like Wilmslow and Alderley Edge) and so it might tempt a few people if the standard class is busy.

So you think you should have 3 completely separate fleets for 3 routes you think should have first class.

Northern’s fleet has to be flexible so it can work anywhere in the specified area. Start throwing in random micro fleets of units with first class and you create an operational headache.

People need to get over this idea that first class is needed on regional routes. It just isn’t.

Yes it’s a benefit on long distance intercity routes (LNER, Avanti, XC, TPE etc…) but nothing on Northern comes close to needing it.

 

[ScotTrains]

The local operator up here in Scotland, Scotrail, has always operated services with 1st class alongside the long distance operators. Every city is served by at least 2 operators with 1st class (always Scotrail plus another).
I find it strange that the local operator south of the border doesn't have any services with 1st class. For example Carlisle to Newcastle doesn't have any services (Northern or otherwise) with 1st class linking these two great cities!

I would like to see most of the Northern Connect services include a small 1st class area. It doesn't have to be fancy, just a few seats at the end of a coach. It doesn't even need to reduce seating capacity; the 1st class on the Scotrail 158's didn't reduce capacity at all. They just had a nicer table, curtains, tablelight, power socket, complimentary catering, etc separated from standard class with a doorless divider. A 2-1 seating arrangement would ideally be better with a couple of single airline seats like those seen on the turbostars.

Business and leisure travellers appreciate first class and will pay a reasonable amount more to sit there even on regional routes, Scotrail proves this. The lack of first class will simply drive these lucrative markets away. Offering weekend upgrades would provide additional income from those who would normally travel standard class. I used to travel 1st class to Windermere but since Northern took over I now drive instead, after having an unpleasant experience in a crowded standard class Northern service.

 

[quantinghome]

The local operator up here in Scotland, Scotrail, has always operated services with 1st class alongside the long distance operators. Every city is served by at least 2 operators with 1st class (always Scotrail plus another).
I find it strange that the local operator south of the border doesn't have any services with 1st class. For example Carlisle to Newcastle doesn't have any services (Northern or otherwise) with 1st class linking these two great cities!

Surely that's because Scotrail is effectively the intercity operator between the main cities in Scotland, as well as the regional and local operator. By contrast northern England has four operators for the intercity services, all of which have first class. Northern doesn't operate alongside these intercity services, but instead concentrates (by design) on the regional and local routes. Hence why the demand for first class on Northern will always be rather limited. Maybe an uncatered 'club class' might work on some routes?

 

[skyhigh]

I would like to see most of the Northern Connect services include a small 1st class area.

As I said earlier in the thread, Connect as a concept is dead and buried.

 

[Neptune]

As I said earlier in the thread, Connect as a concept is dead and buried.

I’m sure there’ll be threads in 15 years time saying ‘when Northern Connect starts running’ even though it’s been dead as a concept since at least March 2020 when Arriva finished.

 

[Purple Orange]

1st class on a commuter train would be asking passengers “who wants to pay more for a bit more personal space? Those who can’t pay will be squeezed in to less carriage space.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Thinking simply of where demand might be, I suspect FC might work on Harrogate services, offering 2+1 seats, tables & possibly a nice lamp and curtains, but I don't think a trolley would be worth bothering with. It'd be useful to know what first class loadings are like on the LNER services, though that doesn't tell anything like the whole story.

The maximum a Harrogate passenger will be on the train is 40 minutes. It seriously wouldn‘t be worth the loss of SC capacity for that.

Oh, I wouldn't do it unless there capacity, and even then maybe just one end of a 3 car 170 sort of size, but I don't think the time on board is necessarily relevant, plenty do first class between Leeds and York which is quicker, but I suspect it might be the one route where there'd be demand for it as a way to get people out of their luxury cars, and there's enough money on that line. Even Harrogate - York might be a decent market too.

The big problem though is trying to operate such a small number of FC services, wherever it was, would need a small dedicated fleet with FC, and I can't see that really being practical.

The interesting thing about the Harrogate line is that when Northern took over the 170s from ScotRail they did come with first class with 2+1 seating. Some still have it with curtains and table lamps removed, others I think have had 2+1 removed although I'm not so sure.

If you were going to operate 1st class on any service other than long distance this would be the ideal line considering it is pretty much self contained.

At the moment the 170s are running at almost full capacity by the looks of it so the main benefit of 1st would be guaranting a seat!

 

[skyhigh]

The interesting thing about the Harrogate line is that when Northern took over the 170s from ScotRail they did come with first class with 2+1 seating. Some still have it with curtains and table lamps removed, others I think have had 2+1 removed although I'm not so sure.

If you were going to operate 1st class on any service other than long distance this would be the ideal line considering it is pretty much self contained.

At the moment the 170s are running at almost full capacity by the looks of it so the main benefit of 1st would be guaranting a seat!

Yes and no - yes, some 170s do still have an ex-first class section, but not many and they work any 170 service- so you'd need to diagram the ones with first class separately as a microfleet. In addition, there's quite a bit of 158 vs 170 running going on. It's still introducing more problems than would be solved.

 

[Anonymous10]

Yes and no - yes, some 170s do still have an ex-first class section, but not many and they work any 170 service- so you'd need to diagram the ones with first class separately as a microfleet. In addition, there's quite a bit of 158 vs 170 running going on. It's still introducing more problems than would be solved.

i seem to recall seeing the 170s running Scarborough to Sheffield having a first class section a few months ago

 

[skyhigh]

i seem to recall seeing the 170s running Scarborough to Sheffield having a first class section a few months ago

Yes they end up all over the place wherever 170s are diagrammed. The section is permanently declassified though.

 

[Anonymous10]

Yes they end up all over the place wherever 170s are diagrammed. The section is permanently declassified though.

oh i never knew i was on holiday so thought it was a actual first class so never sat in it

 

[iantherev]

I work this route a lot and there is a hell of a lot of people who travel the full or substantial length of the journey. York - Lancaster changing at Preston is a popular one. Leeds/Bradford/Halifax - Preston/Blackpool is also very popular. I’ve refuted this in threads before when it has been claimed that it isn’t used by many long distance passengers but it seems to always be forgotten when the next thread comes around mentioning YRK - BPN services.

With regards first class it should not be a consideration for Northern whatsoever. First class isn’t required and it just takes up room that is better served by everyone, not a few paltry upgrades or some chav chancers travelling couple of stops.

Ah but you forget that the ordinary travelling public should only behave in the way that the forum thinks they ought to behave.

 

[Mally66]

Trolley services don't work, that's why they've been got rid of on SWR.

Going back to the thread, Northern is a local regional ToC. I don't see why 1st is needed. They don't operate any main long distance routes, so 1st should be left to TPE

Trolley services would work and would be a profitable business if the pricing was right and were able to provide a guaranteed trolley on a designated service.
I worked as a Trolley Steward on the Hastings - London Charing Cross / Cannon Street line in the late 80s and can honestly say the trolley was well patronised on an average day we would each be taking in excess of £400. Admittedly the peak Am/Pm commuter services were our bread and butter, but were used frequently by leisure travellers also.
The journey time was approx 80 mins but you could get through a 12 car unit before Sevenoaks with ease.
It's a part of the whole train experience imo

 

[yorksrob]

Trolley services would work and would be a profitable business if the pricing was right and were able to provide a guaranteed trolley on a designated service.
I worked as a Trolley Steward on the Hastings - London Charing Cross / Cannon Street line in the late 80s and can honestly say the trolley was well patronised on an average day we would each be taking in excess of £400. Admittedly the peak Am/Pm commuter services were our bread and butter, but were used frequently by leisure travellers also.
The journey time was approx 80 mins but you could get through a 12 car unit before Sevenoaks with ease.
It's a part of the whole train experience imo.

Thanks, that's an interesting insight. I used to use the trolley on occasions between Ashford and Charing Cross and was sad when they discontinued it. Good to know they made a decent amount.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Trolley services would work and would be a profitable business if the pricing was right and were able to provide a guaranteed trolley on a designated service

Would certainly be interesting if they were reasonably priced.

From personal experience,
cans on pop certainly shouldn't be 100% than what you could buy them for in a corner shop. Don't even think many high Street chain stores sell them at more than a £1 either, yet TPE tries charges £2. I enjoy a can every now and then but I never purchase anything off the trolley as its ridiculously expensive.

Rant over!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would certainly be interesting if they were reasonably priced.

From personal experience,
cans on pop certainly shouldn't be 100% than what you could buy them for in a corner shop. Don't even think many high Street chain stores sell them at more than a £1 either, yet TPE tries charges £2. I enjoy a can every now and then but I never purchase anything off the trolley as its ridiculously expensive.

Rant over!

It's expensive because there's no other way you're going to get even close to covering the steward's wages, even on minimum wage as many are. The economics on airlines are rather different because the job can be done by cabin crew who are mandatorily there for safety reasons but basically have nothing to do between the seatbelt sign going off and back on otherwise.

It's not dissimilar to why motorway services charge that sort of rate too - they are extraordinarily expensive to operate and 24 hour opening is mandatory, and the majority of users just go in for a wee and don't spend anything.

Fancy asking the RMT if guards can sell coffees? No, didn't think so

 

[Halifaxlad]

Fancy asking the RMT if guards can sell coffees? No, didn't think so

Probably end up on strike!

 

[Spartacus]

It's expensive because there's no other way you're going to get even close to covering the steward's wages, even on minimum wage as many are. The economics on airlines are rather different because the job can be done by cabin crew who are mandatorily there for safety reasons but basically have nothing to do between the seatbelt sign going off and back on otherwise.

It's not dissimilar to why motorway services charge that sort of rate too - they are extraordinarily expensive to operate and 24 hour opening is mandatory, and the majority of users just go in for a wee and don't spend anything.

Fancy asking the RMT if guards can sell coffees? No, didn't think so

Perhaps, as Mally66 attests, prices were reasonable then more people would use them making them more profitable? I think the general opinion is that they’re overpriced, and you’re lucky to see one anyway, unless you’re at the right end of the right portion of the right train at the right time. When that’s the case people are going to buy before they board at buffets and station shops which, even though they should have the greatest overheads, usually have the lowest prices, even lower than vending machines which these days seem like the biggest rip offs of all, might as well switch them off and save the electricity given how few people who I see approach them actually use them!