Current Northern services which could or should have first class

[Bletchleyite]

The Mk3 sets don't technically have first class either.

https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/onboard-our-trains/what-business-zone

If it looks like a duck and quacks like one...

 

[Senex]

XC definitely operate routes that should have first class, but the short, overcrowded voyagers and the multitude of shorter distance commuter flows served by the same trains means it is unviable to keep the first class sections which take up 1/4 or 1/5 of the train.

Similarly TPE operate shorter trains and serve a lot of shorter distance commuter flows but first class could be justified.

If linking Liverpool/Manchester with Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow, and Edinburgh or Liverpool with Manchester, Leeds, and Newcastle are not inter-city services I don't know what is — unless the idea really is that only London deserves proper high-quality inter-city services.

 

[daodao]

If linking Liverpool/Manchester with Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow, and Edinburgh or Liverpool with Manchester, Leeds, and Newcastle are not inter-city services I don't know what is — unless the idea really is that only London deserves proper high-quality inter-city services.

The intercity services from NW England to Scotland and Yorkshire/NE England should be operated by the WCML and ECML franchises respectively, with intercity type rolling stock (e.g. Hitachi 80x series trains) with first class and limited catering. The rest of TPE should be subsumed into Northern (or EMR for the Hope valley services). The XC services from SW England to NE England should really be a joint ECML/GWR operation with Hitachi 80x series bimodes, with other parts of the XC operation devolved to local/regional TOCs, e.g. EMR for the Birmingham-Stansted Airport route, WMR/LNWR for the Manchester-Birmingham route etc.

 

[YorksLad12]

One issue for Northern would be that rolling stock with First Class seating would need to be confined to the same routes every day, which might reduce stock utilisation. And they'd need a decent reservations system. And it would need policing. The proposed Northern Connect-plus-trolley services would have sufficed. I suppose one way to judge whether such services would be popular would be count the number of First Class ticket holders only travelling between, say, Sheffield and Leeds or Leeds and Harrogate as those routes have services which have trains with First Class seating.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like one...

You're thinking of LNER's Mallard sets.
(I'll get my coat.)

 

[Aictos]

None.

First class should be removed from all rail services other than long distance inter-city ones, mostly to/from London. It takes more space than standard class and thus reduces train capacity. IMO, it should be scrapped on most services in South East England/East Anglia, other than on fast London-Norwich and London-Weymouth services.

I was not aware that TfW provided any first class facilities, apart from on the once daily (weekdays only) WAG express from Cardiff to Holyhead generously funded at taxpayers' expense.

What makes Norwich more worthy of 1st Class then Kings Lynn for example?

What makes those routes you mentioned so special that only they should offer 1st Class unless of course it's a case of screw everyone else as long as my trains offer 1st Class?

The intercity services from NW England to Scotland and Yorkshire/NE England should be operated by the WCML and ECML franchises respectively, with intercity type rolling stock (e.g. Hitachi 80x series trains) with first class and limited catering. The rest of TPE should be subsumed into Northern (or EMR for the Hope valley services). The XC services from SW England to NE England should really be a joint ECML/GWR operation with Hitachi 80x series bimodes, with other parts of the XC operation devolved to local/regional TOCs, e.g. EMR for the Birmingham-Stansted Airport route, WMR/LNWR for the Manchester-Birmingham route etc.

Fully disagree as moving Birmingham to Stansted to EMR means yet another operator at Birmingham which isn't needed.

The long distance Northern services eg Leeds to Carlisle, York to Blackpool and Nottingham to Leeds SHOULD have 1st Class and as such should be branded as Premier routes eg as they were going to be branded as Northern Connect routes.

As to TPE, if it must be merged into another operator then only XC makes sense as they both operate a similar type of service.

 

[daodao]

Actually it does, on the Mk3 sets. Most of their units don't though.

it's not technically first class, and is not classed as such in journey planners or timetables, which is why I didn't notice it. There appears to be just 1 train that provides this business class Silver service on Chiltern Railways, for which a supplement to the standard class fare is payable. It appears to be available just on a single daily return journey from Kidderminster to Marylebone and back at peak times, and a single Mon-Sat return journey from Marylebone to Birmingham and back in the middle of the day. Presumably it is provided by an ex-1st class mark 3 coach in one of the Chiltern loco-hauled sets. It seems to be no more than a token offering to capture some business traffic that would otherwise use the Avanti Euston-Birmingham service.

Maintaining a micro fleet of trains that have first class accommodation as Chiltern (and TfW) do is daft, particularly if they are locomotive hauled stock. Standard 2/3/4 car local/regional dmus/emus/bimode mus should not have first class provision (including all trains on the former Southern Region); as other posters have stated, this should be confined to longer-distance inter-city services.

 

[Philip]

In terms of the trolley service and people having not used it as much, could this new leisure-orientated railway see demand for this increase? Commuters aren't likely to want to buy anything off the trolley, but day-trippers to Windermere and Blackpool, or those travelling along the Settle and Carlisle or Hope Valley, might provide more demand for it.

 

[Ianno87]

Maintaining a micro fleet of trains that have first class accommodation as Chiltern (and TfW) do is daft, particularly if they are locomotive hauled stock. Standard 2/3/4 car local/regional dmus/emus/bimode mus should not have first class provision (including all trains on the former Southern Region); as other posters have stated, this should be confined to longer-distance inter-city services.

Chiltern do it as a commercial choice, so clearly they don't think it's daft (or, rather, the revenue figures don't).

Or is this more about you wanting more space for yourself at somebody else's cost?

 

[cactustwirly]

In terms of the trolley service and people having not used it as much, could this new leisure-orientated railway see demand for this increase? Commuters aren't likely to want to buy anything off the trolley, but day-trippers to Windermere and Blackpool, or those travelling along the Settle and Carlisle or Hope Valley, might provide more demand for it.

Trolley services don't work, that's why they've been got rid of on SWR.

Going back to the thread, Northern is a local regional ToC. I don't see why 1st is needed. They don't operate any main long distance routes, so 1st should be left to TPE

 

[Djgr]

Trolley services don't work, that's why they've been got rid of on SWR.

Going back to the thread, Northern is a local regional ToC. I don't see why 1st is needed. They don't operate any main long distance routes, so 1st should be left to TPE

And that was the whole reason that TPE was carved out of the existing Northern England TOCs to begin with. Northern Connect with its various associated and unfulfilled promises was always strategically problematic.

 

[Neptune]

In terms of the trolley service and people having not used it as much, could this new leisure-orientated railway see demand for this increase? Commuters aren't likely to want to buy anything off the trolley, but day-trippers to Windermere and Blackpool, or those travelling along the Settle and Carlisle or Hope Valley, might provide more demand for it.

There is a trolley on the S&C which has been supplied by FOSCL for over 15 years after the 2004 Northern/TPE split. Before the split it was provided by Rail Gourmet and was the only non TPE route with a trolley.

Can’t see any demand for a trolley anywhere else, same as first class. A pointless exercise at Northern.

 

[Spartacus]

Thinking simply of where demand might be, I suspect FC might work on Harrogate services, offering 2+1 seats, tables & possibly a nice lamp and curtains, but I don't think a trolley would be worth bothering with. It'd be useful to know what first class loadings are like on the LNER services, though that doesn't tell anything like the whole story.

 

[Neptune]

Thinking simply of where demand might be, I suspect FC might work on Harrogate services, offering 2+1 seats, tables & possibly a nice lamp and curtains, but I don't think a trolley would be worth bothering with. It'd be useful to know what first class loadings are like on the LNER services, though that doesn't tell anything like the whole story.

The maximum a Harrogate passenger will be on the train is 40 minutes. It seriously wouldn‘t be worth the loss of SC capacity for that.

 

[daodao]

Chiltern do it as a commercial choice, so clearly they don't think it's daft (or, rather, the revenue figures don't).

I think that it is a hangover from previous service provision. When GBR takes over direction of what train services are provided, such an anomaly can be culled. The passenger railway should be about transporting passengers from A to B with a reliable frequent service as cheaply and economically as possible, so as to compete effectively with the private car. Provision of "superior" facilities (first class, catering, sleepers) can only be justified if it is economically viable and does not detract from the core role.

Or is this more about you wanting more space for yourself at somebody else's cost?

Why are you making this accusation? I have no personal interest in the provision/withdrawal of "super standard" facilities on Chiltern.

In the last 37 years, I have lived in areas now primarily served by the TfW and Northern franchises, and see no need for these or similar train operators (e.g. in SE England) to provide first class on local or regional services. The acquisition of more loco-hauled carriage stock by TfW for the Marches line is a retrograde step back to 1980s; I recall the welcome replacement of those services by the class 155 (and subsequently class 158) trains.

 

[Spartacus]

The maximum a Harrogate passenger will be on the train is 40 minutes. It seriously wouldn‘t be worth the loss of SC capacity for that.

Oh, I wouldn't do it unless there capacity, and even then maybe just one end of a 3 car 170 sort of size, but I don't think the time on board is necessarily relevant, plenty do first class between Leeds and York which is quicker, but I suspect it might be the one route where there'd be demand for it as a way to get people out of their luxury cars, and there's enough money on that line. Even Harrogate - York might be a decent market too.

The big problem though is trying to operate such a small number of FC services, wherever it was, would need a small dedicated fleet with FC, and I can't see that really being practical.

 

[daodao]

What makes Norwich more worthy of 1st Class then Kings Lynn for example?

The London-Norwich route is a fast inter-city service serving sizeable towns/cities. The service to King's Lynn is a regional semi-fast service terminating in a small provincial town.

What makes those routes you mentioned so special that only they should offer 1st Class unless of course it's a case of screw everyone else as long as my trains offer 1st Class?

I am not suggesting services that may merit first class provision on the basis of personal preference. The criterion is whether or not they are fast inter-city services, primarily to/from London, for which longer trains are used, and for which providing 1 (or may be even 2) first class carriages on a train of 8 or more carriages is economically viable and does not impact adversely on core standard class provision.

Fully disagree as moving Birmingham to Stansted to EMR means yet another operator at Birmingham which isn't needed.

The long distance Northern services eg Leeds to Carlisle, York to Blackpool and Nottingham to Leeds SHOULD have 1st Class and as such should be branded as Premier routes eg as they were going to be branded as Northern Connect routes.

As to TPE, if it must be merged into another operator then only XC makes sense as they both operate a similar type of service.

I would get rid of XC and TPE as separate operators and allocate most of their services to a suitable regional operator, the only exceptions being:

• NW England to Scotland services should go to the WCML franchise
• NW England to Northallerton and beyond should go to the ECML franchise
• SW England to NE England should be a joint GWR/ECML operation.

There should be NO first class provision on Northern. Leeds to Carlisle and York to Blackpool are regional stopping services. Nottingham to Leeds should probably be run by EMR, in conjunction with the Nottingham-Liverpool service, on which there is no first class provision.

I don't see a problem with EMR running the services from Birmingham to Leicester and beyond; an additional operator at Birmingham New Street won't break the bank, particularly as no EMR trains would need to be based there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern do it as a commercial choice, so clearly they don't think it's daft (or, rather, the revenue figures don't).

Or is this more about you wanting more space for yourself at somebody else's cost?

Chiltern do it because their Mk3 sets have a first class vehicle in them so they might as well do something with it. The seats have not been replaced since they were used by Wrexham and Shropshire, else they might well have put Standard ones in it. They are just the old W&S sets with the door modifications and little else changed.

The Banbury set didn't have a first class vehicle in it and accordingly when it was in operation did not have First Class.

 

[Aictos]

The London-Norwich route is a fast inter-city service serving sizeable towns/cities. The service to King's Lynn is a regional semi-fast service terminating in a small provincial town.

The route used to be served by InterCity and links least two cities with London which has now been downgraded to a Network South East operation, no reason why Norwich can't receive the same as does Northampton and Peterborough.

I am not suggesting services that may merit first class provision on the basis of personal preference. The criterion is whether or not they are fast inter-city services, primarily to/from London, for which longer trains are used, and for which providing 1 (or may be even 2) first class carriages on a train of 8 or more carriages is economically viable and does not impact adversely on core standard class provision.

Peterborough, Bedford, Brighton has always offered 1st Class and has never impacted adversely on core standard class provision so why remove it just because they don't suit your personal view that Weymouth for example is only worthy of the facility?

I would get rid of XC and TPE as separate operators and allocate most of their services to a suitable regional operator, the only exceptions being:

• NW England to Scotland services should go to the WCML franchise
• NW England to Northallerton and beyond should go to the WCML franchise
• SW England to NE England should be a joint GWR/ECML operation.

Again, why have a joint GWR/ECML operation when XC and TPE serve the purpose well, the only way to make TPE and XC more effective is to merge their operations as they both serve similar operations in that they are both long distance and regional services eg Manchester to Scotland, Newcastle to Reading, Cardiff to Nottingham or Liverpool to Scarborough.

There is no gain or need to get rid of both when a merger would be more beneficial.

Also what's the point in having the WCML basically take over all the TPE operations north of York?

Blackpool are regional stopping services. Nottingham to Leeds should probably be run by EMR, in conjunction with the Nottingham-Liverpool service, on which there is no first class provision.

Blackpool to York, Nottingham to Leeds and Liverpool/Norwich are XC services and the only reason why there is no first class on the Liverpool to Norwich route is because of the overcrowding on it between Liverpool and Nottingham, run longer trains eg 6 coaches to Nottingham with 3 continuing onto to Norwich and you would be able to offer 1st Class again.

There should be NO first class provision on Northern.

Northern Connect is our brand name for a group of specific routes which will connect our customers on the longer journeys in our franchise from December 2019. The investment and improvements will include:

- Fast, comfortable, inter-urban network
- Introduced in stages up to December 2019
- Connects all cities and towns with population over 85000 (unless served by metro or other franchise)
- 12 new and upgraded services, most hourly
- Over 90% operated with new trains
- 36 Connect Stations with consistent, higher standards
- Differentiated marketing and customer service
- Advance tickets

Therefore those services SHOULD offer 1st Class as a option for those wishing to use it.

I don't see a problem with EMR running the services from Birmingham to Leicester and beyond; an additional operator at Birmingham New Street won't break the bank, particularly as no EMR trains would need to be based there.

You might not think there's a problem from your armchair but there was a reason why the DfT didn't hand over Birmingham to Leicester/Stansted Airport to East Midlands Trains as it was at the time, most likely due to the performance risk at New Street importing delays.

As to saying no EMR trains would have to be based there, you do realise that there is a XC depot there for drivers and guards who would have to be TUPE over to EMR in the unlikely and unneeded chance that it happens and that you would incur plenty of ECS running from Nottingham to get to Birmingham when at the moment the XC Class 170s are based on the outskirts of Birmingham so are quite close to New Street.

 

[YorksLad12]

Getting back to Northern... reading this month's Modern Railways, and the introduction of the class 153 units in Scotland. Would they kill any birds with one stone on the Settle-Carlisle / Lancaster-Morecambe routes? More bike and luggage space for the walkers, hikers and cyclists, First Class for those that want it. And no need to change existing stock.

 

[30907]

Getting back to Northern... reading this month's Modern Railways, and the introduction of the class 153 units in Scotland. Would they kill any birds with one stone on the Settle-Carlisle / Lancaster-Morecambe routes? More bike and luggage space for the walkers, hikers and cyclists, First Class for those that want it. And no need to change existing stock.

An interesting idea - for Carlisle if not Morecambe: you might form the 0920 and 1049 off Leeds and their back workings 3+1, and declassify the supplementary-fare bit (I wouldn't call it 1st) on the commuter trips that form part of the diagrams - with standing space as needed in the bike area!

However, I'm not convinced: backpackers and cyclists heading for the Islands or Western Highlands are a specialised market. The nearest S and C equivalents are more likely to be on a day trip than travelling the length of the line from West Yorkshire - and even the Pennine Way walker need only go as far as Gargrave or Horton. I don't think the business case would stack up.

As for the "first class" traveller, the day-out market is well catered for by the regular specials - and IF the idea floated earlier this year of short HSTs doing Leeds-Glasgow happens, by that service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Morecambe is very much a "local train for local people" and would not benefit from this scheme. Most users are just locals going to/from Lancaster as it's quicker than the bus. There is also an "MK Redway standard" cycle path from Lancaster to Morecambe which is fairly flat and quite pleasant to use, so anyone cycling is likely just to ride along this. (It's a conversion of the old, more direct railway line from Green Ayre).

The ones that potentially would are Settle-Carlisle and Windermere, but the latter obviously wouldn't work as 153s aren't compatible with 195s.

The other place that it might work (but a bit OT unless you hark back to FNW days) is the Conwy Valley, but obviously that's getting 197s if it hasn't washed away by then.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Getting back to Northern... reading this month's Modern Railways, and the introduction of the class 153 units in Scotland. Would they kill any birds with one stone on the Settle-Carlisle / Lancaster-Morecambe routes? More bike and luggage space for the walkers, hikers and cyclists, First Class for those that want it. And no need to change existing stock.

I also noticed that the c. 24-seat area in the Class 153 was being branded as a 'premium' class for a £10 supplement that included 'complementary' refreshments. (I never thought that I'd live to see the Class being promoted as luxury travel and am slightly surprised that sharing with bikes and potentially sweaty/muddy cyclists keeping an eye on their machines is seen as part of the package.)

One thing that I haven't seen is a price for the Class 153 conversions. As First Class/panoramic on scenic lines is often touted as "money for old rope" I wondered how much investment the old rope has actually needed (and that's before the additional operating costs). Can anyone help?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also noticed that the c. 24-seat area in the Class 153 was being branded as a 'premium' class for a £10 supplement that included 'complementary' refreshments. (I never thought that I'd live to see the Class being promoted as luxury travel and am slightly surprised that sharing with bikes and potentially sweaty/muddy cyclists keeping an eye on their machines is seen as part of the package.)

Particularly when the seats are Richmonds, which are about the worst seats anywhere on the network (and unlike Fainsa's finest, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say a good thing about them). I'd pay a tenner for a nice Grammer IC3000, by comparison.

Though it does sort of have the look and feel of the cosiness of your Scottish Nan's front room, though, which is probably what they were going for.

 

[Anonymous10]

Definitely none - in fact it should be removed from most other TOC and only be kept on long distance services:

Avanti
EMR (only the 810s for STP to Sheffield/Nottingham)
LNER
GWR (only the IETs)

tfw is justified given the length of the Milford/ Swansea- Manchester Piccadilly and Cardiff to hollyhead

 

[LittleAH]

I would get rid of XC and TPE as separate operators and allocate most of their services to a suitable regional operator, the only exceptions being:

• NW England to Scotland services should go to the WCML franchise
• NW England to Northallerton and beyond should go to the WCML franchise
• SW England to NE England should be a joint GWR/ECML operation.

There aren't any suitable regional operators. TPE are the regional intercity operator for the North and XC the non London regional operator for the UK. Franchises are dead in the water and it doesn't make sense to dissolve regional operators and give XC to GWR/LNER. Bonkers.

 

[daodao]

There aren't any suitable regional operators.

In the north of England, there is Northern and in the Midlands, LMR and EMR.

Also what's the point in having the WCML basically take over all the TPE operations north of York?

Apologies - I meant to state ECML should take over the NW England to NE England services via Standedge.

Definitely none - in fact it should be removed from most other TOC and only be kept on long distance services:

Avanti
EMR (only the 810s for STP to Sheffield/Nottingham)
LNER
GWR (only the IETs)

I agree. @ Aictos - In response to the whole of your reply, I am not alone in my view.

My suggestion to transfer certain services from NW and SW England to Scotland and NE England to inter-city operators was based partly on the desirability of retaining first class provision on these long-distance routes and improving the service offering, given that TPE and XC are appalling TOCs, that are best broken up.

 

[37424]

Getting back to Northern... reading this month's Modern Railways, and the introduction of the class 153 units in Scotland. Would they kill any birds with one stone on the Settle-Carlisle / Lancaster-Morecambe routes? More bike and luggage space for the walkers, hikers and cyclists, First Class for those that want it. And no need to change existing stock.

Given 153 are a dog end of a train putting First Class in them has got to be a joke.

There is just no need for 1st class on any Northern Service, might be justified on the S&C in the form special service like Staycation Express but otherwise just No. Catering S&C services only.

The TPE routes don't need First Class either especially with likely abandonment of Edinburgh services on the East Coast, probably just about justified on XC Voyager routes but not 170 routes.

 

[LittleAH]

The TPE routes don't need First Class either especially with likely abandonment of Edinburgh services on the East Coast, probably just about justified on XC Voyager routes but not 170 routes.

Yes they do and there's plenty of uptake on them. Especially the Scottish WCML and Liverpool - Newcastle services. There's also no abandonment of Edinburgh services with 5 per day set to run from Dec 21.

In the north of England, there is Northern and in the Midlands, LMR and EMR.

They're not suitable - you also fail to take into account depots etc. In fact the Liverpool-Nottingham should be transferred over from EMR to either Northern/TPE.

 

[37424]

Yes they do and there's plenty of uptake on them. Especially the Scottish WCML and Liverpool - Newcastle services. There's also no abandonment of Edinburgh services with 5 per day set to run from Dec 21.


They're not suitable - you also fail to take into account depots etc. In fact the Liverpool-Nottingham should be transferred over from EMR to either Northern/TPE.

Rubbish TPE is little more than a Regional service and the East Coast Edinburgh service will likely be little more than a token service in future possibly acting as a glorified stopper.

 

[LittleAH]

Rubbish TPE is little more than a Regional service and the East Coast Edinburgh service will likely be little more than a token service in future possibly acting as a glorified stopper.

Please do have a go travelling on the Man Air-Edinburgh and Liverpool - Newcastle services, especially Thurs-Sun. First class always busy, services busy - and it's a regional intercity service where those travelling expect first class and catering. God knows how many questions we've answered in the last few months about it on services.