Current large road building projects

[John R]

Are there examples where this is happening in the area proposed to be served by Go-op? or indeed anywhere?

mods note split from this thread

In Gloucestershire the 1980s Birdlip Bypass is shortly to be superseded by the A417 Missing Link project.

 

[slowroad]

In Gloucestershire the 1980s Birdlip Bypass is shortly to be superseded by the A417 Missing Link project.

But overall very limited road construction in recent decades. And UK has an inferior road network to other developed countries, including places like the Netherlands which have also invested more in other modes.

 

[Bald Rick]

In Gloucestershire the 1980s Birdlip Bypass is shortly to be superseded by the A417 Missing Link project.

That’s a bypass for a bypass. Not what the post I was quoting was suggesting.

 

[The Planner]

In Gloucestershire the 1980s Birdlip Bypass is shortly to be superseded by the A417 Missing Link project.

Or was that orignal bypass from 1989 just not strategically designed and done on the cheap considering what has happened subsequently with Brockworth and the M5 junction and the Cirencester bypass?

 

[Annetts key]

In Gloucestershire the 1980s Birdlip Bypass is shortly to be superseded by the A417 Missing Link project.

Near Weston-super-Mare, a new bypass is under construction: the Banwell bypass. Some details from the local council here.

There has also been news that either a new junction for the M5 motorway is under consideration or expanding and upgrading one or more existing junctions. Both ideas being for the northern part of Somerset / southern part of North Somerset area.

The U.K. currently has difficulty maintaining it's existing road network, so if more roads are built, that will encourage even more road traffic. And make road maintenance even more difficult and costly.

Although the U.K. population rate of growth has reduced compared to recent years, the general number of people travelling overall is I believe continuing to grow. I've not searched to try to find figures for this though.

So I believe this country should be both increasing the capacity and service frequency on existing railway lines, using existing freight lines for passenger traffic where it's beneficial for the community and building new lines where there is the potential for a reasonable amount of demand (even if the projected figures may indicate that such a line may not break even for many years).

In general, it's normally less expensive to build a railway line compared to a road for the same capacity and a railway line uses less land. There are also advantages for the environment for a railway vs. a road.

So it follows that greater cooperation between private railways and the national railway system should be something that is seriously considered.

This country really does need to do a whole lot more to encourage far more people to use public transport (both trains and local authority run bus services).

The existing mess left by all the years of Conservative government is just not good enough. The private bus company (First) ideas of running a reliable service are a standing joke on some routes.

 

[BayPaul]

Near Weston-super-Mare, a new bypass is under construction: the Banwell bypass. Some details from the local council here.

There has also been news that either a new junction for the M5 motorway is under consideration or expanding and upgrading one or more existing junctions. Both ideas being for the northern part of Somerset / southern part of North Somerset area.

The U.K. currently has difficulty maintaining it's existing road network, so if more roads are built, that will encourage even more road traffic. And make road maintenance even more difficult and costly.

Although the U.K. population rate of growth has reduced compared to recent years, the general number of people travelling overall is I believe continuing to grow. I've not searched to try to find figures for this though.

So I believe this country should be both increasing the capacity and service frequency on existing railway lines, using existing freight lines for passenger traffic where it's beneficial for the community and building new lines where there is the potential for a reasonable amount of demand (even if the projected figures may indicate that such a line may not break even for many years).

In general, it's normally less expensive to build a railway line compared to a road for the same capacity and a railway line uses less land. There are also advantages for the environment for a railway vs. a road.

So it follows that greater cooperation between private railways and the national railway system should be something that is seriously considered.

This country really does need to do a whole lot more to encourage far more people to use public transport (both trains and local authority run bus services).

The existing mess left by all the years of Conservative government is just not good enough. The private bus company (First) ideas of running a reliable service are a standing joke on some routes.

The Banwell bypass is mainly to relieve the extremely overcrowded roads through Banwell village, where several busy routes meet in the middle of the village on a section of road that is just a bit too narrow for two cars to pass. It will transform the village centre from a polluted nightmare to a pleasant place, and will also help punctuality of local buses. I can't see any way that a rail upgrade could be an alternative.

It may be cheaper to build a railway for the same capacity (though it sounds unlikely), but that is ignoring the fact that said capacity is unlikely to be required. For actual passengers transported, the economics of building a branch line are pretty poor compared to a similar road.

We do need more transport capacity in this country, but winding rural branch lines really aren't going to do anything to help. New urban and intercity routes are much more likely to take cars off the road. Nearby Portishead is a good example, as would be a Bristol metro, which seems to be gaining a bit of traction, though probably not enough to actually get built.

 

[Annetts key]

The Banwell bypass is mainly to relieve the extremely overcrowded roads through Banwell village, where several busy routes meet in the middle of the village on a section of road that is just a bit too narrow for two cars to pass. It will transform the village centre from a polluted nightmare to a pleasant place, and will also help punctuality of local buses. I can't see any way that a rail upgrade could be an alternative.

It may be cheaper to build a railway for the same capacity (though it sounds unlikely), but that is ignoring the fact that said capacity is unlikely to be required. For actual passengers transported, the economics of building a branch line are pretty poor compared to a similar road.

We do need more transport capacity in this country, but winding rural branch lines really aren't going to do anything to help. New urban and intercity routes are much more likely to take cars off the road. Nearby Portishead is a good example, as would be a Bristol metro, which seems to be gaining a bit of traction, though probably not enough to actually get built.

One - where do you think most of the traffic through Banwell is going or coming from? Clue, only a fraction is locals from the local villages.

Two - I never suggested that building a brand new railway line would be a solution for Banwell. Although not far away is the line of route of the former Cheddar Valley line (also known as The Strawberry line). Here's one web site showing the line of route link. And here's the Wikipedia article on this line.

It is possible to force more people to use public transport, but politicians won't go near this for obvious reasons. Then trains and bus services could operate more profitably. Note I am not suggesting that should be done. I think it's better to make public transport more attractive to people. Use a carrot not a stick.

My comments about building new railway lines or reopening existing lines to passenger services were for the principle in general across the mainland U.K.

 

[BayPaul]

One - where do you think most of the traffic through Banwell is going or coming from? Clue, only a fraction is locals from the local villages.

Two - I never suggested that building a brand new railway line would be a solution for Banwell. Although not far away is the line of route of the former Cheddar Valley line (also known as The Strawberry line). Here's one web site showing the line of route link. And here's the Wikipedia article on this line.

It is possible to force more people to use public transport, but politicians won't go near this for obvious reasons. Then trains and bus services could operate more profitably. Note I am not suggesting that should be done. I think it's better to make public transport more attractive to people. Use a carrot not a stick.

My comments about building new railway lines or reopening existing lines to passenger services were for the principle in general across the mainland U.K.

Oh, most of it is from Weston and the huge new housing developments there, to places to the east.

The railway in Weston could do a better job of dealing with the new north - south traffic. Ideally it needs a metro-style 4tph into Bristol, and Worle station becoming a full on Weston Parkway, with XC services also stopping. But that wouldn't change the need for a Banwell bypass, or make Go op style services any more likely to be viable.

 

[Egg Centric]

or indeed anywhere?

The A1 through/past Newcastle (if you consider v1 when it was passing over the swing bridge)

 

[Topological]

The M4 replaces the dual carriageway A48 which bypassed the old single carriage road through Baglan. However, that is still one replacement shy of the post @Bald Rick quoted.

There is (and probably needs to be) huge growth in developments along the M5 between Bristol and Exeter. Given the land in the area, having housing focused on that corridor makes a lot of sense.

However, the flow will be towards Bristol and any Swindon service would be to London and via Bristol. You could ultimately make a case for all Bristol terminators to extend down the corridor.

Not doing much to help Go-Op

 

[John R]

Not sure what that is but it doesn't sound as if it will be very sympathetic to the Cotswold countryside!

A quick Google of A417 Missing Link will bring up the National Highways project page.

And the project certainly wasn’t very sympathetic to the Air Balloon pub….

 

[Harpo]

In Gloucestershire the 1980s Birdlip Bypass is shortly to be superseded by the A417 Missing Link project.

Making the quick (45 mins ish currently) drive from Cheltenham to Swindon even faster than the awful 65-70 min Stroud valley plod on the train.

 

[nw1]

A quick Google of A417 Missing Link will bring up the National Highways project page.

And the project certainly wasn’t very sympathetic to the Air Balloon pub….

I had a look after my post and it seems to blast right through the escarpment. I do wonder why this route even needs a large highway. Traffic from the Midlands and North to the Central South (Berkshire, Hampshire etc) would go via the M40/A34. Traffic from the Midlands and North to Bristol, South Wales, Devon and Cornwall would stick to the M5.

Why do we need such a large highway through the Cotswolds when we definitely didn't in the past (as I said, in the 80s we occasionally travelled via the M5, A435 and M4 as an alternative and slower 'scenic route' from the Midlands to the South, and it definitely wasn't busy - at the time the A417 didn't even have an M5 junction, hence this routing). Is it worth degrading that part of the Cotswolds when the really large traffic flows could go via the M40/A34 or the M5?

 

[Harpo]

I had a look after my post and it seems to blast right through the escarpment. I do wonder why this route even needs a large highway. Traffic from the Midlands and North to the Central South (Berkshire, Hampshire etc) would go via the M40/A34. Traffic from the Midlands and North to Bristol, South Wales, Devon and Cornwall would stick to the M5.

Why do we need such a large highway through the Cotswolds when we definitely didn't in the past (as I said, in the 80s we occasionally travelled via the M5, A435 and M4 as an alternative and slower 'scenic route' from the Midlands to the South, and it definitely wasn't busy - at the time the A417 didn't even have an M5 junction, hence this routing). Is it worth degrading that part of the Cotswolds when the really large traffic flows could go via the M40/A34 or the M5?

From the west side of the west mids such as Bromsgrove the A417 is already the fastest route towards Southampton, and that’s before factoring in the usual congestion and standstills between the M40 and Oxford.

 

[nw1]

From the west side of the west mids such as Bromsgrove the A417 is already the fastest route towards Southampton, and that’s before factoring in the usual congestion and standstills between the M40 and Oxford.

Potentially that traffic could go via the M42/M40 of course, you could always upgrade the A34 spur to Oxford from the M40 as it's not an especially outstanding area scenically. Replace the roundabout at the M40/A34 junction with an uninterrupted spur, for example.

It's an interesting issue, but I guess that part of the Cotswolds is seen as not-so-important for preservation? I wonder if there was a lot of local opposition, another poster mentioned the Air Balloon pub for example. Certainly the Seven Springs area, a little further east, is very attractive (I've stopped in the Coberley/Cowley/Elkstone area once or twice, there is, or was, a nice pub in the area) and I can see that area might be significantly degraded due to the proximity of this new road.

I guess my ethic would always be to try and protect AONBs from new road development unless it's unavoidable, and route traffic round them, via alternate routes.

 

[The Planner]

Not sure what that is but it doesn't sound as if it will be very sympathetic to the Cotswold countryside!

At one point, the only way through this area was to come off the M5 and go through Cheltenham and the A435 to Cirencester. This was the typical route in the 80s, it sounds like traffic has vastly increased if they need a super-highway through the Cotswolds though where all extra the traffic has come from, I don't know.

Its the last missing piece of dual carriageway between J11A on the M5 and the M4 at Swindon.

 

[The exile]

Its the last missing piece of dual carriageway between J11A on the M5 and the M4 at Swindon.

Otherwise known as the can that can’t be kicked down the road any further because it’s stuck in a traffic jam!

 

[Harpo]

you could always upgrade the A34 spur to Oxford from the M40

The A34 will soon have a vastly improved spur on/off the M3 at J9 but its achilles heel is still the section around Oxford. (Screen grab of the J9 scheme below.)

 

[ABB125]

The A34 will soon have a vastly improved spur on/off the M3 at J9 but its achilles heel is still the section around Oxford. (Screen grab of the J9 scheme below.)

And, for traffic heading towards the M1, there will soon be the absolute car crash developer-funded "upgrade" of J10 of the M40 to deal with. Plans are linked in this post on the SABRE forum: https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1429263#p1429263



Perhaps controversially, I would suggest that there are no major road schemes going on in the UK at the moment. A few miles of new road, or a junction "upgrade" that any other country would immediately reject as not fit for purpose, should not be considered major by any definition of the word, regardless of how stupidly expensive the projects may be.

Edit: actually, having thought a bit more, I will concede that the Lower Thames Crossing counts as a major project - in places I'd argue it's excessive (the proposed spaghetti where it joins the A2) yet elsewhere it scrimps on provision (the 2 lane southbound bit between the M25 and A13)

 

[thejuggler]

Work to dual the A66 from Penrith to Scotch Corner is finally underway, that must be considered a major scheme.

 

[Bald Rick]

Work to dual the A66 from Penrith to Scotch Corner is finally underway, that must be considered a major scheme.

Agreed, and quite some work it is too.

Also A9 dualling, which is significant - work underway on three sections: Tomatin - Moy, Tay Crossing - Ballinluig, and Pitlochry - Killecrankie (enabling works).

 

[telstarbox]

The M25 / A12 junction has just been upgraded - I think this is separate from the upcoming LTC works.

Is the M25 / A3 upgrade at Wisley done and dusted now?

 

[ABB125]

Work to dual the A66 from Penrith to Scotch Corner is finally underway, that must be considered a major scheme.

Agreed, and quite some work it is too.

Also A9 dualling, which is significant - work underway on three sections: Tomatin - Moy, Tay Crossing - Ballinluig, and Pitlochry - Killecrankie (enabling works).

I'll accept both of those, although arguably they're both a collection of small/medium projects under one umbrella. Can't believe I forgot about the A9, having driven most of it recently.

The M25 / A12 junction has just been upgraded - I think this is separate from the upcoming LTC works.

Is the M25 / A3 upgrade at Wisley done and dusted now?

Neither of those I would class as major projects under my personal road scheme classification system. Especially the A3: let's spend an extortionate amount of money to make a signalised roundabout slightly bigger* to reduce the length of the queues (by making the queues wider instead...). This (and the A12, and a large number of other junctions) would be built fully free-flowing at the beginning in any other country.


*Yes, I know a few other minor improvements were made to the A3 as well as the junction itself

 

[swt_passenger]

I think relatively speaking, in terms of length and complexity, the A428/A421 changes between the Black Cat (St Neots) and Caxton Gibbet is one of the bigger current projects.

But I’d agree, there are projects playing catch up - like M3 J9 Winchester (that @Harpo mentioned earlier) are basically rectifying original design flaws. I think the A34 should have been a freeflow junction when the M3 was first built.

 

[Magdalia]

The Black Cat-Caxton Gibbet project is current and large.

It bypasses two existing bypasses, at St Neots and Eltisley.

When complete I understand that the road will be renumbered from A428 to A421.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Construction of the A628 Mottram bypass in Gtr. Manchester / Derbyshire is well underway, with some very significant earthworks. It will link the M67 and the Woodhead Pass - the current road has been a notorious traffic blackspot for many years with long queues.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Black Cat-Caxton Gibbet project is current and large.

It bypasses two existing bypasses, at St Neots and Eltisley.

When complete I understand that the road will be renumbered from A428 to A421.

I saw something about that in the SABRE forum a while back. It’s referred to as an A428 project on the Highways list of projects, but the A421 will be extended over the new route to replace the A428 as far as Caxton, but possibly all the way to Girton. The A428 immediately east out of St Neots is detrunked but remains A Road status and is renumbered to A1428, then it continues alongside the new route as a local access road, but now its renumbered to B1428.

 

[HSTEd]

Construction of the A628 Mottram bypass in Gtr. Manchester / Derbyshire is well underway, with some very significant earthworks. It will link the M67 and the Woodhead Pass - the current road has been a notorious traffic blackspot for many years with long queues.

As someone who semi regularly drives from Manchester to the M1/M18, it will help, but I fear all it will do is pile you into the awful road beyond even faster.

Without a proper transpennine route from Sheffield to Manchester it all seems rather futile.

 

[ABB125]

As someone who semi regularly drives from Manchester to the M1/M18, it will help, but I fear all it will do is pile you into the awful road beyond even faster.

Without a proper transpennine route from Sheffield to Manchester it all seems rather futile.

A proper Manchester Sheffield link would definitely count as a major project - except it would've been built 40 years ago in most other countries

 

[nw1]

A proper Manchester Sheffield link would definitely count as a major project - except it would've been built 40 years ago in most other countries

You do have to think what's between Manchester and Sheffield though. Would have to be a tunnel, basically, if you want to avoid negatively impacting the Peak District too much. It's much shorter, of course, but the Hindhead Tunnel is a rare example of a road scheme that has actually improved the environment. Then again, the Alps has far longer tunnels, so if they can do it in the Alps, why not the Peak District? I guess that UK spending-averse ethic that other countries don't seem to have so much is the likely reason...

Could they somehow re-use Woodhead as a road tunnel? Could they have done that 40 years ago?