Curious questions - Caledonian Sleeper

[vinnielo]

I travelled on the Caledonian Sleeper back down from Glasgow the other night.
Just a few questions, as I'd never been on it before..

1) The train stopped at Carstairs. According to Wikipedia, this is where it couples with an Edinburgh-originated train. I expected this to be at the front of the train, but getting off at Euston, I noticed I was in the front carriage. Have I misunderstood how it all works, or did the Edinburgh train fail to make it on time?

2) I had a seated ticket. If there were unbooked berths, would I have been able to purchase an instant upgrade on board the train?

3) Wikipedia says the buffet car is sometimes restricted to First Class passengers only. How do I know if that is the case for this particular service?

4) Stupid question, but do they lock the door at the back of the end car, or could a sleepwalking passenger fall to their death? How is it locked?

Thanks in advance.

 

[causton]

2) The stewards will tell you as you board/if you ask them as you board I believe.
3) Once again, the stewards will let you know when you're in the buffet car

1 and 4 I do not know, but perhaps I will as I will be going on the sleeper from Euston - Edinburgh in November

 

[ainsworth74]

2) I had a seated ticket. If there were unbooked berths, would I have been able to purchase an instant upgrade on board the train?

Yes you could buy a berth supplement on board, though I imagine that avaliblity is likely to zero or very limited.

4) Stupid question, but do they lock the door at the back of the end car, or could a sleepwalking passenger fall to their death? How is it locked?

The only stupid question is the one you don't ask Anyway the answer is quite simply locked with a key!

 

[Eagle]

1) The train stopped at Carstairs. According to Wikipedia, this is where it couples with an Edinburgh-originated train. I expected this to be at the front of the train, but getting off at Euston, I noticed I was in the front carriage. Have I misunderstood how it all works, or did the Edinburgh train fail to make it on time?

The Edinburgh portion usually gets to Carstairs first, and the Glasgow portion passes it and backs onto the Edinburgh portion. The Edinburgh loco detaches and the Glasgow one hauls the lot to London. Hence the Glasgow rake is at the front. This is the only way you can do it.

If you wanted the Edinburgh portion to be at the front you'd either need to leave the Edinburgh rake temporarily without a loco (and hence no power) while it ran round, or end up with the Edinburgh loco stuck in the middle.

 

[Rich McLean]

On point 4, the back doors of the back carriage will most definitely be locked

 

[Eagle]

I drew a diagram of what happens because I found my own post confusing :P

You should be able to see that there's no way of getting the Edinburgh rake (pink) at the front without either abandoning a rake or trapping the red loco between the two rakes.

 

[crewmeal]

Nice one Eagle. Now can you do one for the Fort William/ Inverness/Aberdeen collection at Edinburgh.

 

[Essexman]

3) I have never known anyone ask if customers have first or standard berth tickets in lounge car. I have seen it full but it's always first come first served.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I drew a diagram of what happens because I found my own post confusing :P
You should be able to see that there's no way of getting the Edinburgh rake (pink) at the front without either abandoning a rake or trapping the red loco between the two rakes.

In the old days (1980s) when there were daytime loco-hauled trains, the Edinburgh portion (diesel hauled) arrived first in P1 and then shunted clear to the north.
Then when the Glasgow portion (electric hauled) arrived in P2 the Edinburgh portion was shunted on to the rear.
ie the Edinburgh portion did the twiddly bits.
Coming the other way the Edinburgh portion was on the back and was just left behind by the Glasgow.
So somewhere they must have turned the rakes at the English end, or used symmetrical portions, to get them in position for Carstairs.
Glasgow always got the restaurant car!

 

[The 39 Steps]

After making the Carstairs stop in P1, the portion from Edinburgh draws forward into the Up Passenger Loop. When the portion from Glasgow arrives into Carstairs P1 - and is confirmed as stationary - the portion in the UPL is propelled onto the rear of the portion from Glasgow and coupled up. Then the loco which brings the portion from Edinburgh in is uncoupled and a continuity brake test is done. When the driver is happy with the brake test the train is then ready for heading south.

 

[Liam]

Nice one Eagle. Now can you do one for the Fort William/ Inverness/Aberdeen collection at Edinburgh.

Usually it's done on platform 11. The Aberdeen portion usually arrives first and stops at the Western end of the platform, the 67 stays attached until the Class 90 is on the other end, then the 67 uncouples. The Fort William has usually arrived by the time the loco swap is done. It waits for the Aberdeen loco to leave, runs round the Aberdeen set and reverses onto it, loco, seating car and lounge car are uncoupled. Inverness portion runs round, and reverses onto the back of the Fort William portion, loco uncoupled and leaves.

So on leaving Edinburgh the formation (usually) is Class 90 on the front, Aberdeen portion, Fort William then Inverness on the rear.

 

[DarloRich]

I drew a diagram of what happens because I found my own post confusing :P

You should be able to see that there's no way of getting the Edinburgh rake (pink) at the front without either abandoning a rake or trapping the red loco between the two rakes.

good little diagram that! It has saved me explaining it all it all!

I always like to get off at Carstairs for a leg stretch and a breath of fresh air as it takes c.10 minutes to lash everything up!

 

[Rick1984]

Great diagram. Anyone got any videos of the coupling. Couldn't find on youtube.

 

[DarloRich]

Great diagram. Anyone got any videos of the coupling. Couldn't find on youtube.

difficult at 1AM in the dark

 

[Butts]

good little diagram that! It has saved me explaining it all it all!

I always like to get off at Carstairs for a leg stretch and a breath of fresh air as it takes c.10 minutes to lash everything up!

That would be handy for me to get off at Carstairs for a quick "burn" as it's a Scotrail Station - "breath of polluted air" :cry:

 

[DarloRich]

That would be handy for me to get off at Carstairs for a quick "burn" as it's a Scotrail Station - "breath of polluted air" :cry:

that is what a lot of people seem to do - i wouldn't stray to far form the train - cant imagine being left behind at Carstairs would be fun

 

[Butts]

that is what a lot of people seem to do - i wouldn't stray to far form the train - cant imagine being left behind at Carstairs would be fun

Does anyone sneak off illegally for a "sly burn" at any of the English stops ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Not likely, most of the booked stops at Watford Jn, Crewe, Preston and Carlisle are between 3-5 minutes only.

EDIT - For tonight at least, the southbound Highland at Preston looks like it has 30 mins or so, but that's it for any: bear in mind I'm checking tonight's, so during the week it may be different.

EDIT 2 - Looking at it deeper, I'm not too confident of where that 30 mins is booked though, and also I don't think it has to wait for the booked time as it's set down only I think, so can depart early.

 

[Liam]

Not likely, most of the booked stops at Watford Jn, Crewe, Preston and Carlisle are between 3-5 minutes only.

Whenever I have been on the sleeper it has arrived at Crewe very early and sat there for a good 20 minutes. I've seen the EWS drivers have a smoke on the station at Crewe or Preston...

 

[Butts]

Not likely, most of the booked stops at Watford Jn, Crewe, Preston and Carlisle are between 3-5 minutes only.

For tonight at least, the southbound Highland at Preston looks like it has 30 mins or so, but that's it for any. Bearing in mind I'm checking tonight's, so during the week it may be different.

Shame they'll have to leave that "back door" open for me.....

"Middle Aged Gentlemen found spreadeagled on line with the dying embers of a cigarette encased between his fingers "
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whenever I have been on the sleeper it has arrived at Crewe very early and sat there for a good 20 minutes. I've seen the EWS drivers have a smoke on the station at Crewe or Preston...

This is an encouraging post

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Looking for during the week, the most I can see is about 8-10 at Crewe on the Highland Sleeper heading north. None of the 4 are seemingly booked long at Watford Jn, only a couple of mins. At Preston, the Highland is booked to get about 5 minutes each way. The Lowland gets about 8 at Carlisle north, about 5 south. Of course the Sleeper gets quite a lot of slack (or padding), so trains can inevitably run early and wait time. I don't think this would happen in England southbound though, IIRC no Sleeper is booked to pick up in England southbound, so can depart at any time once it's ready.

 

[Helvellyn]

In the old days (1980s) when there were daytime loco-hauled trains, the Edinburgh portion (diesel hauled) arrived first in P1 and then shunted clear to the north. Then when the Glasgow portion (electric hauled) arrived in P2 the Edinburgh portion was shunted on to the rear, i.e. the Edinburgh portion did the twiddly bits. Coming the other way the Edinburgh portion was on the back and was just left behind by the Glasgow.
So somewhere they must have turned the rakes at the English end, or used symmetrical portions, to get them in position for Carstairs. Glasgow always got the restaurant car!

It was symmetrical portions, with the restaurant car always the middle coach so that it was left attached to the relevant portion.

Of the top of my head typical formations were: -

BG-TSO-TSO-FK(or BFK)-TSO-TSO-RBR-TSO-TSO-FK(or BFK)-TSO-TSO-BG

As InterCity began to manage capacity tighter the formations became: -

BG-TSO-TSO-TSO-FK(or BFK)-RBR-FK(or BFK)-TSO-TSO-TSO-BG

The Cornish, Devon, Wessex and Sussex Scot sets generally had Mk 2D first class vehicles and Mk 2D or 2E TSOs, with Mk 1 BGs and RBRs. There was also an additional Mk 2C set that operated the (un-named) Paignton service.

I believe one exception to the restaurant car going to Glasgow was the Devon Scot, where if I recall the RBR was left on the Aberdeen portion rather than the Glasgow one.

Not all sets had the BG in the formation (I'm sure the Paignton service didn't), and on a Summer Saturday all services were named as "InterCity Holidaymaker" rather than carry the "Scot" names of a weekday. As I also recall, on a few Summers in the late 1980s what was the Sussex Scot, which ran to Brighton, ran to/from Eastbourne on a Saturday. I imagine that meant a long ECS formation running to/from Brighton on a Friday and Saturday evening.

Two things killed off the portion working services: cascase of InterCity 125 units from an electrified East Coast (introduced on Cornish, Devon and Wessex Scots) and the introduction of fixed formation Mk 2 sets on loco-hauled services that started eliminating the Mk 1 RBR coaches, and that also made formation working impossible: -

BG-RFB-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO

The second thing that killed off portion working was getting the assets to do more. With the portion working described above the sets only made one revenue journey a day. Using fixed formation HSTs and loco-hauled sets meant that fewer sets could be digrammed for more intense diagrams, doing more than one journey per day.

For reference, the named trains were: -

Cornish Scot - Edinburgh/Glasgow to Penzance
Devon Scot - Aberdeen/Glasgow to Plymouth
Unnamed - Edinburgh/Glasgow to Paignton (Summer only if I recall)
Wessex Scot - Edinburgh/Glasgow to Poole
Sussex Scot - Edinburgh/Glasgow to Brighton (Summer Saturdays to Eastbourne)

 

[vinnielo]

I drew a diagram of what happens because I found my own post confusing :P

You should be able to see that there's no way of getting the Edinburgh rake (pink) at the front without either abandoning a rake or trapping the red loco between the two rakes.

Thanks for the drawing. That's explained it well.
Is it a bad idea to leave rakes abandoned, then? No brakes?

I think The 39 Steps got it right when he says it's the Edinburgh train which reverses onto the Glasgow one, rather than the other way round. I didn't notice us going backwards!

Thanks for the replies from everyone else, too.

Anyway the answer is quite simply locked with a key!

Primitive, and I guess a procedure that's been inadvertently skipped on a very small number of occasions?

 

[DarloRich]

Does anyone sneak off illegally for a "sly burn" at any of the English stops ?

I couldn't tell you - i am asleep!

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks for the drawing. That's explained it well.
Is it a bad idea to leave rakes abandoned, then? No brakes?

The breaks would be impossible to release without a locomotive as there would be no air supply to release them. The reason for not abandoning the rake is that there would be no ETS (Electric Train Supply) so no AC, only emergency lights, no catering and so on.

Primitive, and I guess a procedure that's been inadvertently skipped on a very small number of occasions?

Well the vehicles are around thirty years old now And it does happen but it's very very rare and the only time I've heard it happen it was with the set of doors behind the locomotive not at the rear of the train (and that was back in BR days and not on the sleeper).

 

[transportphoto]

The interconnecting door of carriages is locked with a BR1 lock, the BR1 key is a reasonably secure key but its not hard to get hold of. I have one for use as / when needed as part of my volunteer role on the North Norfolk Railway.

Here's a photo of the key: http://s.ecrater.com/stores/185223/4d032e74ec014_185223n.jpg

The doors are often secured as well using sliding bolts only accessible from the outside.

Primitive, and I guess a procedure that's been inadvertently skipped on a very small number of occasions?

Yes, I have worked a train (as a ticket inspector) on the NNR where I found the door leading outside (directly behind the loco) unlocked, quickly slammed shut and locked was the answer to that problem!

TP

 

[reb0118]

4) Stupid question, but do they lock the door at the back of the end car, or could a sleepwalking passenger fall to their death? How is it locked?

Anyway the answer is quite simply locked with a key!

Primitive, and I guess a procedure that's been inadvertently skipped on a very small number of occasions?

Well, it may be primitive but it also works. The gangway connection at the extreme ends of the train are also secured by way of a French Pin. The biggest problem is when coupling up the two portions of the train that you don't forget to unsecure the French Pin prior to coupling on as you will be unable to unlock the gangwang door from the inside - and yes you've guessed it another tie off/tie on will be necessary!

 

[Tomnick]

The breaks would be impossible to release without a locomotive as there would be no air supply to release them.

Someone with a more in-depth knowledge of air-braked stock might correct me, but it should be possible to release the pressure holding the brakes on manually (and they'd gradually release over time anyway). That's what handbrakes are for!

 

[ainsworth74]

Someone with a more in-depth knowledge of air-braked stock might correct me, but it should be possible to release the pressure holding the brakes on manually (and they'd gradually release over time anyway). That's what handbrakes are for!

Oh, really? You're probably right, air brakes aren't exactly an area in which I'm an expert Now you mention it that's kind of obvious

 

[jamieP]

Someone with a more in-depth knowledge of air-braked stock might correct me, but it should be possible to release the pressure holding the brakes on manually (and they'd gradually release over time anyway). That's what handbrakes are for!

You can pull the brake release cord. That would then release the brakes on that coach and over time the air would drain away causing the brakes to release. This is why LHCS have brake vans.