Cumbrian Coast Loco Hauled Stock

[_toommm_]

Apparently a 156 on the 05:15 but 37402 expected to take over with the 11:56 (now 424)

Is this for this upcoming Saturday or was it for the Saturday just gone?

 

[yorksrob]

Well that's interesting although if diagrams continue to alternate past May I'm not sure why you would bother with the 153, as 3 x MK2 with a with a brake is about the same capacity as a 156 and their will be a lot less enthusiasts on the 156, unless it runs with 4 carriages, people are suggesting there is an issue at Whitehaven with the platform and signal position which may require a reduction to 3 carriages but they ran with 4 carriages when the 37's initially ran T&T

Well, a 156/153 would help to alleviate the toilet issue, which I've alluded to previously.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Well that's interesting although if diagrams continue to alternate past May I'm not sure why you would bother with the 153, as 3 x MK2 with a with a brake is about the same capacity as a 156 and their will be a lot less enthusiasts on the 156, unless it runs with 4 carriages, people are suggesting there is an issue at Whitehaven with the platform and signal position which may require a reduction to 3 carriages but they ran with 4 carriages when the 37's initially ran T&T

Goodness! I don't think you understand the market on the Cumbrian Coast.

Although the local hauled sets have generated a small amount of interest, it is completely insignificant in relation to the other flows. The first northbound and southbound loco services are specifically designed to cater for Sellafield workers and as such are pretty much full. If the service could be shown to be reliable it would be easy to fill a 3 car sprinter from either end and probably easy to fill a 4 car. On top of that there are commuter flows to Carlisle, Workington, Whitehaven and Barrow and smaller communities like Millom with poor bus services and low car ownership. Then there is the tourist nature of the route and the major attraction at Ravenglass as well as its proximity to many long distance walks and cycle routes.

A reliable frequent clock face timetable would probably require peak time capacity in the region of 2 x 156 going forward.

 

[a_c_skinner]

153, 155 and 156 seem the only options from Maryport to Carlisle though Mk1-3 coaches are OK too; presumably this is why this awfully costly (and pending the 68s unsatisfactory) solution is in play. The problem is a few very well loaded trains over some parts of the route, the Furness Line generally well loaded throughout and some very lightly loaded trains up the "middle bit" of the coast. Flex is plainly months away but to my (foolish and simple) mind ought to "fit" up the coast (only a few mm in it and suitable for evacuation in tunnels) and would suit Furness and Beetham line trains too.

 

[47802]

Goodness! I don't think you understand the market on the Cumbrian Coast.

Although the local hauled sets have generated a small amount of interest, it is completely insignificant in relation to the other flows. The first northbound and southbound loco services are specifically designed to cater for Sellafield workers and as such are pretty much full. If the service could be shown to be reliable it would be easy to fill a 3 car sprinter from either end and probably easy to fill a 4 car. On top of that there are commuter flows to Carlisle, Workington, Whitehaven and Barrow and smaller communities like Millom with poor bus services and low car ownership. Then there is the tourist nature of the route and the major attraction at Ravenglass as well as its proximity to many long distance walks and cycle routes.

A reliable frequent clock face timetable would probably require peak time capacity in the region of 2 x 156 going forward.

And you have completely misssd the point I was making which is that unless the diagrams change to out and back diagrams in may, unlike the present diagrams where set A works from Barrow on day 1 and then works from Carlisle the following day you would have a capacity mismatch between a suggested 3 carriage class 68 working, and a 156+153 working it wasn't really a comment on whether the capacity is sufficiant, and made a fairly obvious comment that a DMU working is likely to have less enthusiasts onboard. To get roughly equivalent capacities of a 156+153 you would need 4 carriage Mk2's as now, while 3 MK2's doesn't offer much more than a single 156.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

And you have completely misssd the point I was making which is that unless the diagrams change to out and back diagrams in may, unlike the present diagrams where set A works from Barrow on day 1 and then works from Carlisle the following day you would have a capacity mismatch between a suggested 3 carriage class 68 working, and a 156+153 working it wasn't really a comment on whether the capacity is sufficiant, and made a fairly obvious comment that a DMU working is likely to have less enthusiasts onboard. To get roughly equivalent capacities of a 156+153 you would need 4 carriage Mk2's as now, while 3 MK2's doesn't offer much more than a single 156.

No need to get excited, I was simply responding to your comment about 'a lot less enthiusiasts'. The busy Sellafield services have an average of zero and the off peaks attract 2-10 on an average day.

 

[47802]

No need to get excited, I was simply responding to your comment about 'a lot less enthiusiasts'. The busy Sellafield services have an average of zero and the off peaks attract 2-10 on an average day.

Ok fair enough, Its been nice having the Loco Hauled stock from enthusiast viewpoint and I'm sure there is some merit in having a Loco Hauled train on the Line although probably the S&C has more potential from an enthusiast and tourist perspective, although the last day trippers I met on that line were more interested in a through train which avoided the need to change at Barrow

If your going to do it then you need do it properly ie a Modern Loco with Driving Trailer and Coaches with Powered Doors especially on that route with the Window Bars restriction, and if look at the bottom line of extra cost of Loco Hauled verses extra revenue generated I suspect it doesn't add up, of course this was only meant to be a temp solution anyway not a long term thing but even then in retrospect it should have been done with class 68's from the start with DBSO's modified accordingly if that was a bit more cost, instead we got a still expensive but unreliable solution.

Also the unreliability of this service hasn't exactly given Loco Haulage a Good Press, even if newer Loco's and Rolling stock are much more reliable.

 

[BRX]

Do we have some up to date stats on the reliability of the trains themselves, compared to others?

I get the impression that a lot of the delays are due to other things.

I wonder if passengers are going to be a bit disappointed when they find out their "new" trains are going to be rattly sprinters which are still not going to provide a highly reliable service.

 

[47802]

Do we have some up to date stats on the reliability of the trains themselves, compared to others?

I get the impression that a lot of the delays are due to other things.

I wonder if passengers are going to be a bit disappointed when they find out their "new" trains are going to be rattly sprinters which are still not going to provide a highly reliable service.

From other forum's I believe there are some stats floating about which show that the Loco Hauled Trains are significantly below Northern 156's, in any case like it or not rattly sprinters is the longer term plan.

 

[IanXC]

From other forum's I believe there are some stats floating about which show that the Loco Hauled Trains are significantly below Northern 156's, in any case like it or not rattly sprinters is the longer term plan.

Aren't 156s one of the most reliable Sprinter fleets anyway?

 

[Roose]

Northern stock plans may have changed since timetable requests for May were made.

If rumours that one LHCS diagram is to be replaced in a couple of weeks by DMU and the other by a Class 68 service until May, north of Barrow only, are correct then most Cumbrian Coast line services will be units until May - perhaps all thereafter, some maybe operating to LHCS times until the winter timetable change.

The important 08:06 departure from Barrow would no longer be dependent upon the LHCS lottery (but would still be eligible to participate in the daily Northern starting lottery and the regular RMT disruption).

 

[70014IronDuke]

From other forum's I believe there are some stats floating about which show that the Loco Hauled Trains are significantly below Northern 156's, in any case like it or not rattly sprinters is the longer term plan.

I don't have any stats, but just cursory checks on RTT back this up. I'm sure some of the delays to LHCS trains are down to 'other' causes and, it is true that with the first two early morning trains on the Barrow - Whitehaven section being Cl 37s there is probably a slightly higher risk of encountering some track or signalling defect than later daytime workings, but the overwhelming evidence from the statistical pov would indicate LHCS trains are far more prone to failure. I'd say about three or four times the rate of the regular DMUs. Of course, some of the LHCS failures may be down to carriage faults rather than the 37s - but to regular punters that matter not one whit, I'd suggest.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Just to confuse matters further, it now seems that 1 class 37 will be replaced by 2x 68s at the end of Jan and the second set replaced by 68s some weeks later.

It maybe related to the DMU shortage that the Bolton electrification fiasco will cause.

 

[sprinterguy]

I wonder if passengers are going to be a bit disappointed when they find out their "new" trains are going to be rattly sprinters which are still not going to provide a highly reliable service.

Given that the class 156s are Northern's most reliable diesel fleet (and seventh most reliable Sprinter fleet in the country, out of 23, at the time of last years' "Golden Spanner" awards - Bearing in mind that the top three are the stupendous results that South West Trains have turned in year after year), I'm not sure how much more they could do! As of September/October 2016, they were nearly THREE TIMES more reliable than the class 37 hauled rakes, though I don't know how the latter have fared in this years' "Golden Spanners".

 

[a_c_skinner]

People want to sit not stand in a train that is on time or within close enough time to make any reasonable connection or appointment. After that everything else is secondary. Even Pacers on time with a seat beat anything very late or too full.

 

[47802]

I don't think 'BRX' has got anything to complain about the 156 is likely to be more reliable, and its a good, reasonably comfortable no thrills train for longer Northern Secondary routes, obviously there may be issues of capacity on some services, and some services may end up with Pacer for a while yet, but then that's no different to many other Northern routes.

If your a daily commuter then the main priority is that it does what it says on the tin, ie turns up and get you to work on time, the quality of the train is of secondary importance as is getting a seat to some degree if its only a short journey.

 

[BRX]

If the stats clearly show that the delays are mainly down to the trains rather than other issues with the line or timetable - then fair enough. A 156 is not in any way as comfortable as a mk2 coach but yes, if you're a commuter then of course the question of whether the train is going to show up reliably is probably a higher priority.

 

[Newshy37]

Does anyone know for certain which diagram will change to 68's? I assume the Monday morning 29th Jan 05:15 Carlisle-Preston turn but does anyone know for sure? Ta.

 

[70014IronDuke]

If the stats clearly show that the delays are mainly down to the trains rather than other issues with the line or timetable - then fair enough. A 156 is not in any way as comfortable as a mk2 coach but yes, if you're a commuter then of course the question of whether the train is going to show up reliably is probably a higher priority.

What's all this with commuters? If you are flying (say) out of Manchester at 16.00 and need to get the 08.42 ex Carlisle at Ravenglass and it doesn't turn up, are you any less inconvenienced?
I agree, of course, that repeated failures are noticed by daily commuters more - but that is because they travel more (by definition). But if the service is unreliable, everyone suffers who uses it - or would like to use it.

 

[Tringonometry]

Does anyone know for certain which diagram will change to 68's? I assume the Monday morning 29th Jan 05:15 Carlisle-Preston turn but does anyone know for sure? Ta.

No word as yet. *If* the loco diagrams stay as they are now (and I've not heard otherwise) then that service will be 68 one day and 37 the next ... and so on.

 

[BRX]

What's all this with commuters? If you are flying (say) out of Manchester at 16.00 and need to get the 08.42 ex Carlisle at Ravenglass and it doesn't turn up, are you any less inconvenienced?
I agree, of course, that repeated failures are noticed by daily commuters more - but that is because they travel more (by definition). But if the service is unreliable, everyone suffers who uses it - or would like to use it.

Simply that commuters tend to do shorter journeys. Those who do longer journeys will probably tend to rate comfort a bit more highly, relative to reliability, than those who do shorter journeys.

 

[Newshy37]

Thanks. I am assuming the set that will finish at Carlisle on the Saturday (forming the Monday 05:15) would be the one to change locos. I understand after that, that they alternate diagrams. I was just hoping someone would know for sure. Ta.

 

[47802]

Simply that commuters tend to do shorter journeys. Those who do longer journeys will probably tend to rate comfort a bit more highly, relative to reliability, than those who do shorter journeys.

Upto point but if you have ever been a regular train commuter who has experienced an unreliable service then you get to point where anything is acceptable even a coal truck if it actually gets to to work and back on time.

 

[47802]

Thanks. I am assuming the set that will finish at Carlisle on the Saturday (forming the Monday 05:15) would be the one to change locos. I understand after that, that they alternate diagrams. I was just hoping someone would know for sure. Ta.

So youve got a good change of getting there on Mondays,Wednesdays, and Fridays or Tuesdays and Thursdays, Love it

 

[absolutelymilk]

Upto point but if you have ever been a regular train commuter who has experienced an unreliable service then you get to point where anything is acceptable even a coal truck if it actually gets to to work and back on time.

Wasn't that the point BRX was making?

 

[47802]

Wasn't that the point BRX was making?

My point was referring to a longer distance commuter which might rate comfort a bit more highly but that's only up to point if you train is unreliable.

 

[Tringonometry]

Thanks. I am assuming the set that will finish at Carlisle on the Saturday (forming the Monday 05:15) would be the one to change locos. I understand after that, that they alternate diagrams. I was just hoping someone would know for sure. Ta.

The date isn't definite yet, let alone deciding which traction runs which diagram.

 

[Tringonometry]

The date isn't definite yet, let alone deciding which traction runs which diagram.

Update:

Plan is for the Class 37 set to start at Carlisle on Tues/Thurs/Sat, with the 68 set starting at Barrow on those days.

The class 68 set will start at Carlisle on Mon/Weds/Fri, with the 37 set starting at Barrow on those days.

 

[The Lad]

Erm. . .

 

[70014IronDuke]

Seems Northern have been getting ever more desperate - even resorting to using electric tractions this morning for the first off Carlisle, if this is to be believed
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y50533/2018/01/17/advanced

(Anyone know the 'real' story behind this?)