Cumbrian Coast Loco Hauled Stock

[Dent]

How do you cope with having to open the doors on cars? Billions of people manage it. It wouldn't personally put me off catching a train.

Just because some people can manage something does not prove that it is not less convenient than something else.

Car doors are a false parallel, since they do not involve the same performance as opening a train door from the inside.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Regarding the use of the 37s and MK2s on the S&C, I tweeted Northern about it a little while ago and they said they were looking into the operational viewpoint of doing this during the summer

 

[anme]

Just because some people can manage something does not prove that it is not less convenient than something else.

Car doors are a false parallel, since they do not involve the same performance as opening a train door from the inside.

I think everyone agrees that manual doors are less convenient than powered doors. It's very good that most trains now have powered doors. The question is whether manual doors are so much less convenient that anyone would deliberately avoid a train known to have them.

 

[fowler9]

Just because some people can manage something does not prove that it is not less convenient than something else.

Car doors are a false parallel, since they do not involve the same performance as opening a train door from the inside.

Ah come on mate seriously. I never said that the doors are more or less convenient. I was commenting on someone saying they would avoid them like the plague. Would you? If you would how would you travel, presumably by bus or a car with your own driver so you don't have to open the door. Interesting contrast there.

 

[randyrippley]

what happened to the Irish-built MkIII's with the powered doors? Were they all scrapped in the end? We should have bought them back and fitted UK gauge bogies to them. Could probably have got them at scrap prices.........
Would have been very useful now

 

[Dent]

If you would how would you travel, presumably by bus or a car with your own driver so you don't have to open the door. Interesting contrast there.

As I already pointed out twice in this thread, car doors are a false parallel. Opening as car door from inside is trivial and can be done without even thinking about it, this is not true of manual train door.

 

[Hophead]

As I already pointed out twice in this thread, car doors are a false parallel. Opening as car door from inside is trivial and can be done without even thinking about it, this is not true of manual train door.

You are obviously presuming that some contributors to the thread do not operate their car doors as they would BR Mk2/3 coaches. I'll certainly be looking out for them in car parks.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

You are obviously presuming that some contributors to the thread do not operate their car doors as they would BR Mk2/3 coaches. I'll certainly be looking out for them in car parks.

Actually, I do wind down the window of my van and open it from the outside

 

[Ash Bridge]

what happened to the Irish-built MkIII's with the powered doors? Were they all scrapped in the end? We should have bought them back and fitted UK gauge bogies to them. Could probably have got them at scrap prices.........
Would have been very useful now

I think most of them were, with just a handful retained for some purpose that I can't recall now, I'm sure that I also read that they were suffering rather badly from corrosion too, perhaps someone can confirm? anyway over the next few years there will surely be plenty of mk3 HST trailer cars available if required.
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Actually, I do wind down the window of my van and open it from the outside

Is it also fitted with secondary door locking and the BR style orange lights on the sides as per mk2/3 coaches?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I think most of them were, with just a handful retained for some purpose that I can't recall now, I'm sure that I also read that they were suffering rather badly from corrosion too, perhaps someone can confirm? anyway over the next few years there will surely be plenty of mk3 HST trailer cars available if required.
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Is it also fitted with secondary door locking and the BR style orange lights on the sides as per mk2/3 coaches?

As it happens, it does indeed have an orange light on both sides

 

[randyrippley]

I think most of them were, with just a handful retained for some purpose that I can't recall now, I'm sure that I also read that they were suffering rather badly from corrosion too, perhaps someone can confirm? anyway over the next few years there will surely be plenty of mk3 HST trailer cars available if required.

thing is, those Irish ones had powered plug doors fitted, the HST ones don't.
Typical that the Irish took our best coach design and then improved it. Sounds like they must have forgotten the undercoat when painting them though....

 

[Bevan Price]

Regarding the use of the 37s and MK2s on the S&C, I tweeted Northern about it a little while ago and they said they were looking into the operational viewpoint of doing this during the summer

Presumably that was before the landslip ? The Appleby - Carlisle section of the S&C is likely to be out of action for several months, I believe.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Presumably that was before the landslip ? The Appleby - Carlisle section of the S&C is likely to be out of action for several months, I believe.

Clearly...

 

[fowler9]

As I already pointed out twice in this thread, car doors are a false parallel. Opening as car door from inside is trivial and can be done without even thinking about it, this is not true of manual train door.

Alright so you think it is a false parallel because opening a car door from the inside is different from opening a train door from the outside. At the end of the day getting out of a car door is still more of a pain in the arse than getting out of a train door so lets stop being pedantic. I'm waisting my time though aren't I, at the end of the day you are defending someone who said they would avoid a train without push button door opening like the plague. Go for it, I am obviously being ridiculous and am completely wrong.

 

[randyrippley]

getting out of a car door is still more of a pain in the arse than getting out of a train door

only if you're bad at parking

 

[fowler9]

only if you're bad at parking

Ha ha, unless you are mobility impaired.

 

[randyrippley]

Ha ha, unless you are mobility impaired.

OK, got me there.

 

[RichmondCommu]

How do you cope with having to open the doors on cars? Billions of people manage it. It wouldn't personally put me off catching a train. And for the record I have seen plenty of people who don't know you have to press the button to open train doors. God knows how they navigate the planet.

Now of course I can't vouch for the cars that you might have owned / driven however I've never known a car where from the inside the only way to open a car door is to lower the window and reach out with your hand.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Now of course I can't vouch for the cars that you might have owned / driven however I've never known a car where from the inside the only way to open a car door is to lower the window and reach out with your hand.

*raises hand*

I do

Actually, I do wind down the window of my van and open it from the outside

 

[RichmondCommu]

Ah come on mate seriously. I never said that the doors are more or less convenient. I was commenting on someone saying they would avoid them like the plague. Would you? If you would how would you travel, presumably by bus or a car with your own driver so you don't have to open the door. Interesting contrast there.

Around once a month I have to travel to Bristol in connection with my job. I always travel by train (a HST) and on occasion have to open the door on arrival / departure. I consider that to be a waste of my time and effort and personally cannot wait for their overdue replacements. Why we are still suffering that kind of inconvenience in the 21st century is beyond me and I can only assume that it's down to DfT dithering.

Other than that I do indeed avoid trains with manual doors like the plague. No manual doors on my commute into Waterloo, no manual doors on the WCML and on my regular travels up and down the MML I've not used a HST in years. Now that my youngest son has long since finished his year long Uni placement at Sellafield I have no reason to visit the Cumbrian Coast route, loco hauled stock or not.
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*raises hand*

I do

In which case you need to get yourself a new van.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Around once a month I have to travel to Bristol in connection with my job. I always travel by train (a HST) and on occasion have to open the door on arrival / departure. I consider that to be a waste of my time and effort and personally cannot wait for their overdue replacements. Why we are still suffering that kind of inconvenience in the 21st century is beyond me and I can only assume that it's down to DfT dithering.

Other than that I do indeed avoid trains with manual doors like the plague. No manual doors on my commute into Waterloo, no manual doors on the WCML and on my regular travels up and down the MML I've not used a HST in years. Now that my youngest son has long since finished his year long Uni placement at Sellafield I have no reason to visit the Cumbrian Coast route, loco hauled stock or not.

In that case, I shall get in touch with my good friends over at EMT and have them put on more HST stock
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In which case you need to get yourself a new van.

Elsie is perfect for me... Don't you dare to insult her

 

[randyrippley]

Now of course I can't vouch for the cars that you might have owned / driven however I've never known a car where from the inside the only way to open a car door is to lower the window and reach out with your hand.

that was the case for some sports cars from the 1930's-50's. Open top lightweight Riley/MG types from memory. I've seen a Bentley fitted like that as well.
I've half a memory of a Sunbeam Rapier with no internal door levers, but whether that was design or error I'm not sure........
If you remember the orginal Minis didn't have a door lever, but instead a pull-cord which usually broke meaning you had to contort your arm through the sliding window to get out

 

[RichmondCommu]

Alright so you think it is a false parallel because opening a car door from the inside is different from opening a train door from the outside. At the end of the day getting out of a car door is still more of a pain in the arse than getting out of a train door so lets stop being pedantic. I'm waisting my time though aren't I, at the end of the day you are defending someone who said they would avoid a train without push button door opening like the plague. Go for it, I am obviously being ridiculous and am completely wrong.

Well you said it and I can't help but agree. How is opening a car door from the inside more of a waste of time and effort than opening a door on a Mk3 coach, or worse a Mk2 coach on the Cumbrian Coast route? You keep saying that it is but you haven't explained why.
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In that case, I shall get in touch with my good friends over at EMT and have them put on more HST stock

And now back to reality.

Elsie is perfect for me... Don't you dare to insult her

As to how high you set your standards is entirely up to you.
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that was the case for some sports cars from the 1930's-50's. Open top lightweight Riley/MG types from memory. I've seen a Bentley fitted like that as well.
I've half a memory of a Sunbeam Rapier with no internal door levers, but whether that was design or error I'm not sure........
If you remember the orginal Minis didn't have a door lever, but instead a pull-cord which usually broke meaning you had to contort your arm through the sliding window to get out

Fair enough, however I do wonder how many of those models are still on the road / for sale.

 

[Flying Snail]

Around once a month I have to travel to Bristol in connection with my job. I always travel by train (a HST) and on occasion have to open the door on arrival / departure. I consider that to be a waste of my time and effort and personally cannot wait for their overdue replacements. Why we are still suffering that kind of inconvenience in the 21st century is beyond me

You are suffering are you? :roll:

If I read that without your name beside it I would assume it came from a whiny spoilt over-privileged little brat, but we both know you are someone of an age that should know better.

There are many things in this world that the word suffering can reasonably be applied to, opening a door by hand once a month is not one of them.

I assume seeing as you find it such a terrible imposition to use wrist action to open doors that you have replaced all the doors, wardrobes and cupboards in your home with automatic ones?

 

[Rhydgaled]

There are many things in this world that the word suffering can reasonably be applied to, opening a door by hand once a month is not one of them.

Actually, I think I've heard of somebody hurting their hand trying to turn the handle on a mrk2 or mrk3 door, in which case the word suffer would be appropriate. Personally, I find openning mrk2 and mrk3 doors from the inside a little tricky, but well worth it for the quieter environment (and, the the case of the mrk2s on the Cumbrian coast, plenty of seats aligned with windows) compared with a DMU. Now, if only we could have an interior that good on powered-door stock...

 

[yorksrob]

Around once a month I have to travel to Bristol in connection with my job. I always travel by train (a HST) and on occasion have to open the door on arrival / departure. I consider that to be a waste of my time and effort and personally cannot wait for their overdue replacements. Why we are still suffering that kind of inconvenience in the 21st century is beyond me and I can only assume that it's down to DfT dithering.

Other than that I do indeed avoid trains with manual doors like the plague. No manual doors on my commute into Waterloo, no manual doors on the WCML and on my regular travels up and down the MML I've not used a HST in years. Now that my youngest son has long since finished his year long Uni placement at Sellafield I have no reason to visit the Cumbrian Coast route, loco hauled stock or not.
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In which case you need to get yourself a new van.

How long does this 'inconvenience' take you, which seems to colour your entire opinion of a journey which could take several hours.

Personally, I find this takes around five to six seconds (and most of that is waiting for the release of the door locking). Not really enough to warrant replacing an item of rolling stock with a less comfortable one for a potentially long journey.

 

[47802]

We seem to be getting hung up on doors, the fact is Loco Hauled manual doors are more difficult to open especially for elderly and disabled persons, and the required bars on the windows on the Cumbrian Coast trains doesn't particularly help, added to which customers on many routes are now used to trains with powered doors. To some degree this has been discussed before on other threads do we really need to discuss it further, as by 2020 we know manual doors either have to be replaced by powered doors or have an internal door handle with more robust central locking.

The key issue for me whether these trains are reliable enough, if I was a regular commuter on the Cumbrian route then I would rather stand on a 153 or Railbus that's going to get me to work on time, than the supposedly more comfortable Loco Hauled train that isn't.

The fact that the DBSO's have been renovated to work with the 37's rather precludes the use of something more modern, so lets hope that with more DBSO's and 37's being renovated the service becomes more reliable, but I wouldn't put money on it.

 

[Ash Bridge]

We seem to be getting hung up on doors, the fact is Loco Hauled manual doors are more difficult to open especially for elderly and disabled persons, and the required bars on the windows on the Cumbrian Coast trains doesn't particularly help, added to which customers on many routes are now used to trains with powered doors. To some degree this has been discussed before on other threads do we really need to discuss it further, as by 2020 we know manual doors either have to be replaced by powered doors or have an internal door handle with more robust central locking.

The key issue for me whether these trains are reliable enough, if I was a regular commuter on the Cumbrian route then I would rather stand on a 153 or Railbus that's going to get me to work on time, than the supposedly more comfortable Loco Hauled train that isn't.

The fact that the DBSO's have been renovated to work with the 37's rather precludes the use of something more modern, so lets hope that with more DBSO's and 37's being renovated the service becomes more reliable, but I wouldn't put money on it.

First of all, point accepted about the window bars, but unfortunately a fact of life on the Cumbrian Coast services, then again they are only there to protect the precious heads of those bods that love to window hang, as was suggested up thread would it not be possible to fit internal handles as per mk1 southern emu's etc. plus as you mention a beefed up secondary locking system, most of the 'inconvenience' is then removed.

Secondly, if the total number of train failures was to be broken down, what is the percentage that is attributable to the class 37's after allowing for failures on the coaching stock, I would guess the figure is no worse than that of unit failures (especially 142's) overall, I honestly don't believe though that it's your preference to stand for an hour or so on a railbus over sitting in a comparatively comfortable (and much cleaner) former Intercity vehicle, you just can't be serious?

 

[chubs]

The fact that the DBSO's have been renovated to work with the 37's rather precludes the use of something more modern, so lets hope that with more DBSO's and 37's being renovated the service becomes more reliable, but I wouldn't put money on it.

How many more DBSO's have DRS taken on? I've seen 6 in total mentioned before, is there any update if that's still so and if the other 4 are in for work?

 

[47802]

First of all, point accepted about the window bars, but unfortunately a fact of life on the Cumbrian Coast services, then again they are only there to protect the precious heads of those bods that love to window hang, as was suggested up thread would it not be possible to fit internal handles as per mk1 southern emu's etc. plus as you mention a beefed up secondary locking system, most of the 'inconvenience' is then removed.

Secondly, if the total number of train failures was to be broken down, what is the percentage that is attributable to the class 37's after allowing for failures on the coaching stock, I would guess the figure is no worse than that of unit failures (especially 142's) overall, I honestly don't believe though that it's your preference to stand for an hour or so on a railbus over sitting in a comparatively comfortable (and much cleaner) former Intercity vehicle, you just can't be serious?

Have you ever been a regular rail commuter?, I was for 2 periods in the late eighties and early nineties, in the end I made other arrangements because the service was so poor it was either that or lose my Job.

Doesn't matter if its the loco or coaching stock at fault, if overall its less reliable than the DMU's on the route its not very acceptable, although newer Loco's might at least help the overall reliability, there isn't much choice in terms of using ancient coaching stock.

Have you ever actually used the internal door handles on old MK1 EMU's they were not particularly easy to use, I gather that for internal door handles that would be acceptable post 2020 the current central locking system isn't regarded as good enough and will require substancial mods which wont be cheap, and are probably not worthwhile for the length of the DRS contract especially as they are not mandatory during the period of the contract.