CT - 170s how things change....

[whoshotjimmi]

Firstly, Mark 2 and 3 stock is dead and buried in this country. The only reason so much still exists is because there has been no replacement for the HST and Mk3 sets. Slam door stock is being rid of and therefore reintroducing it to any line as anything other than an emergency replacement is not going to happen.

Secondly, to all those saying that Northern should release stock to EMT in exchange for some of their battered remains let me say this: Northern passengers have waited a long time for reasonable stock and, regardless of how it is paid for, the situation is now much improved, especially in Yorkshire.

Thirdly, EMT have suffered in part for their removal from the Central franchise. However, the main and repetitive moan coming from that area is the Liverpool - Norwich route. The rest, though far from perfect, is reasonable. Let me ask this question: why was the Norwich - Liverpool route ever put on the EMT franchise? Surely it would have been much better suited to Cross Country or TransPennine franchises. There would have been no arguments about the stock used as it would have been 3-car 170 or 185. It makes no sense in the EMT franchise.

Just as an aside, since some have mentioned the repositioning of stock, what if the MML is electrified? People have mentioned class 90 + Mk3. Would it not make more sense to order some IEP? Or cascade 91 + Mk4? Either way, this would free up all the Meridiens. These could then be redistributed to areas that desperately need it. 8 car trains on Cross Country anyone? Deploy a number of 4 car voyagers + 5 car meridiens to shorter XC routes, couple up the rest to provide 8 car running on longer routes, send the Super Voyagers off to work TPE services to Edinburgh and send displaced 170's to EMT for Norwich - Liverpool and TPE to strengthen Hull services. Sounds quite simple to me. Extra capacity everywhere. IF MML is electrified.

 

[222001]

Let me ask this question: why was the Norwich - Liverpool route ever put on the EMT franchise? Surely it would have been much better suited to Cross Country or TransPennine franchises.

IF MML is electrified.

It think Liverpool-Norwich does make sense with EMT as it goes straight through the East Midlands. It wouldn't make any difference being with XC or FTPE as it would still be the same stock as there is no other free. The government needs to support an order for new four car class 172 units for this route. I would bet passenger growth would be massive with new longer trains that are not a pain to travel on.

I read somewhere today that the electrification of the MML and GWML is expected to be approved this summer.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

It think Liverpool-Norwich does make sense with EMT as it goes straight through the East Midlands. It wouldn't make any difference being with XC or FTPE as it would still be the same stock as there is no other free. The government needs to support an order for new four car class 172 units for this route. I would bet passenger growth would be massive with new longer trains that are not a pain to travel on.

I read somewhere today that the electrification of the MML and GWML is expected to be approved this summer.

In terms of the Norwich - Liverpool going to TPE or XC, TPE would have been ordering new trains at the time which would have nicely fit in to introduction of the route on the franchise. With XC, though they would still have had 158's, the 3 car 170's would have been available should they have decided to choose them for the route. It seems that EMT have been lumped with what's left, which is mainly inapproprate stock for the route. The other two franchises would have had more options with this regard. It would have been of particular benefit to XC IMO as 158's and 153's coupled together make more sense than 170 + 153. Having said that, the Birmingham 'hub' would have been missed which drops neatly into TPE as the Manchester 'hub' would not.

If the MML is electrified, the possibilities for improvement across the network with the release of 222's is endless.

 

[MCR247]

Thirdly, EMT have suffered in part for their removal from the Central franchise. However, the main and repetitive moan coming from that area is the Liverpool - Norwich route. The rest, though far from perfect, is reasonable. Let me ask this question: why was the Norwich - Liverpool route ever put on the EMT franchise? Surely it would have been much better suited to Cross Country or TransPennine franchises. There would have been no arguments about the stock used as it would have been 3-car 170 or 185. It makes no sense in the EMT franchise.

Just as an aside, since some have mentioned the repositioning of stock, what if the MML is electrified? People have mentioned class 90 + Mk3. Would it not make more sense to order some IEP? Or cascade 91 + Mk4? Either way, this would free up all the Meridiens. These could then be redistributed to areas that desperately need it. 8 car trains on Cross Country anyone? Deploy a number of 4 car voyagers + 5 car meridiens to shorter XC routes, couple up the rest to provide 8 car running on longer routes, send the Super Voyagers off to work TPE services to Edinburgh and send displaced 170's to EMT for Norwich - Liverpool and TPE to strengthen Hull services. Sounds quite simple to me. Extra capacity everywhere. IF MML is electrified.

Why do people keep mentioning XC for liverpool - norwich. Its just that XC have no services in the areas, like it'd be like when a XC network map came out, it'd be on A4 never mind a timetable because for XC it'd be out of the way.

If meridians went to XC they would need to keep voyagers still!!

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Why do people keep mentioning XC for liverpool - norwich. Its just that XC have no services in the areas, like it'd be like when a XC network map came out, it'd be on A4 never mind a timetable because for XC it'd be out of the way.

If meridians went to XC they would need to keep voyagers still!!

I mention XC purely as a minor suggestion. I think TPE would be the franchise I would place it in.

If meridiens went to XC, Voyagers could be reshuffled around XC releasing 170's. Or released to other operators. Or kept and coupled together to strengthen other services. There are many uses for them - I was just pointing out a few.

My choice would be this: I think there are 28 222's of varying length - split at the moment like this: 8 x 7 car, 16 x 5 car and 4 x 4 car. (I think I am right in thinking there are more carriages unused somewhere) XC currently have 29 170's - 16 3 car and 13 2 car. If the 222's went to XC, I would employ the longer trains on the Reading - Newcastle route displacing 8 4 car Voyagers. I would place those Voyagers and all the remaining 222's on the Cardiff - Nottingham/Birmingham - Stansted Airport routes. This would provide additional capacity on these routes as well as releasing the 170's. The 3 car units could then be moved over to EMT for the Norwich - Liverpool leaving the 2 car units which I would be inclined to hand over to TPE to strengthen Hull services. I still think the Norwich - Liverpool route would be better suited to TPE, regardless of trains used.

 

[222001]

My choice would be this: I think there are 28 222's of varying length - split at the moment like this: 8 x 7 car, 16 x 5 car and 4 x 4 car. (I think I am right in thinking there are more carriages unused somewhere) XC currently have 29 170's - 16 3 car and 13 2 car. If the 222's went to XC, I would employ the longer trains on the Reading - Newcastle route displacing 8 4 car Voyagers. I would place those Voyagers and all the remaining 222's on the Cardiff - Nottingham/Birmingham - Stansted Airport routes. This would provide additional capacity on these routes as well as releasing the 170's. The 3 car units could then be moved over to EMT for the Norwich - Liverpool leaving the 2 car units which I would be inclined to hand over to TPE to strengthen Hull services. I still think the Norwich - Liverpool route would be better suited to TPE, regardless of trains used.

TPE would be the most sensable and there was talk at one point of splitting the route at Nottingham with TPE getting the Liverpool section and EMT the Norwich section. I think Norwich is too South for TPE, but I suppose Liverpool is too north for EMT.

There are 27 222s. 6 x 7 car, 17 x 5 car, 4 x 4 car. There are no unused 222 carriages anywhere at the moment (apart from 222103 which is being repaired).
I think EMT would need to retain some 222s for use on services that are not electrified such as Lincoln.
The 7 cars can go to XC after coverting one of the first class carriages to standard.
I would then give some of the 5 cars to TPE to operate their Scotland service.
Then new build 172s for Liverpool-Norwich.

 

[MCR247]

@whoshotjimmi XC 220s could be used on selected 170 workings but the main XC network is too overcrowded so it'd be best to double up 4 car 220s and then use 7 cars by themselves. Then every service would be at least 7 car. I agree with 222001 about EMT keeping a few 222s for non electrified services.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

@whoshotjimmi XC 220s could be used on selected 170 workings but the main XC network is too overcrowded so it'd be best to double up 4 car 220s and then use 7 cars by themselves. Then every service would be at least 7 car. I agree with 222001 about EMT keeping a few 222s for non electrified services.

If the MML is electrified, why would the entire thing not be done? I would assume services to Lincoln along the MML will cease following the introduction of services along the ECML.

 

[222001]

If the MML is electrified, why would the entire thing not be done? I would assume services to Lincoln along the MML will cease following the introduction of services along the ECML.

EMT also have the services to York and Scarborough. It would be a shame to cut them as they are quite popular. I'm sure EMT will find some other place to serve with direct London trains when all these Meridians are made free anyway! Such as Mansfield. I predict they will keep a fleet of about 4 or 5 and then others can be sent off to XC or TPE, both are an option.
Thinking about it I do think they will give up the Lincoln trains once NXEC are on the scene. Unless EMT is quite a bit cheaper than the NXEC service.

Edit: Why not have some Meridians on the select Liverpool-Nottingham services that do not continue to Norwich?

 

[MCR247]

Edit: Why not have some Meridians on the select Liverpool-Nottingham services that do not continue to Norwich?

Because there is barely any.........
And the previous workings will be from Norwich..

 

[222001]

Because there is barely any.........
And the previous workings will be from Norwich..

Hmm. I see no reason why they cannot fix up the track and increase the speed on the section between Nottingham and Norwich!
The problem is that loadings are a LOT higher in the Liverpool section.
158s suit the Norwich section very well. 222s would be waste going down there...

 

[WillPS]

Hmm. I see no reason why they cannot fix up the track and increase the speed on the section between Nottingham and Norwich!
The problem is that loadings are a LOT higher in the Liverpool section.
158s suit the Norwich section very well. 222s would be waste going down there...

It's not the track, it's the soil quality beneath it - if you look around on this section you'll see lots of leaning telegraph poles - further evidence of the same. To increase the speed restrictions you'd have to do some quite significant work beneath the track bed; the restriction is to stop track from sinking/sagging.

 

[222001]

It's not the track, it's the soil quality beneath it - if you look around on this section you'll see lots of leaning telegraph poles - further evidence of the same. To increase the speed restrictions you'd have to do some quite significant work beneath the track bed; the restriction is to stop track from sinking/sagging.

Ah right I see.
I would have thought something going over the track faster would put the weight on the area for less amount of time which would reduce any sagging.
They should just buy 172s!

 

[asylumxl]

Ah right I see.
I would have thought something going over the track faster would put the weight on the area for less amount of time which would reduce any sagging.
They should just buy 172s!

I don't really understand why you'd want more space for standing passengers rather than more seats, as proposed in the Class 172. I guess people standing takes up less area than a seat, and if thats the reason, thats disgraceful.

If they got 172s that'd be a full circle, seeing as MML started with 170/1s and replaced them with 222s .

 

[jopsuk]

Ah right I see.
I would have thought something going over the track faster would put the weight on the area for less amount of time which would reduce any sagging.

This isn't the case, however- if the running was microscopically smooth, this would be true. However, the reality is that the faster a train goes, the more stress it puts on the tracks- the up/down and side-side motion gets worse as you get faster, creating bigger dynamic forces- and it's dynamic forces that really kill tracks/bridges/roads/whatever.

 

[90019]

This isn't the case, however- if the running was microscopically smooth, this would be true. However, the reality is that the faster a train goes, the more stress it puts on the tracks- the up/down and side-side motion gets worse as you get faster, creating bigger dynamic forces- and it's dynamic forces that really kill tracks/bridges/roads/whatever.

If you have a train running over softer ground, you can also get a sort of bow wave effect, with the force of the train pushing down pushing the ground up a small amount in front of it, and the faster the train goes, the larger this is, meaning the strain on the tracks is greater and wear happens quicker.

 

[clagmonster]

Great Western will soon be getting new units for the Cardiff-Portsmouth services, and I think other Bristol area services. That will presumably allow their allocation of class 158s to be transferred to EMT, to allow the Norwich-Liverpool services to be strengthened, preferably all to at least 4 coaches. Displaced 158s from Scottish electrification could also join them, or go to Northern.
Similarly, with the arrival of new units for the Moor St lines (are these going to cover other Birmingham diesel suburban runs as well, ie Rugely, possibly Shrewsbury stoppers). This will allow at the very least the fleet of Tyseley 150s, and probably some or all of the 153s to be cascaded. Hopefully common sense will prevail, and the 150/1s will be concentrated at Newton Heath to allow capacity enhancement and possibly some pacer replacement on North-West suburban services. The 150/2s, including those currently split and formed into 150/1 units, should go to Exeter, to enhance capacity and replace pacers there. Any 153s should go to the East Midlands to provide extra capacity, and perhaps in some cases increase frequencies on local services.
150s displaced by the new Goblin units should join the other 150/1s at Newton Heath.
MML electrification would presumably cover Bedford-Moorthorpe/Nottingham, hopefully with Swinton-Doncaster done as well. If this is completed before the IEPs are intoduced, 90s should be introduced, replacing the HST power cars and utilising modified rakes of mark 3s (it was done with 91s quite easily). Either keep 1 HST power car on each set, or use the spare mark 3 DVTs.
Lincoln/Burton/Barnsley (unless Meadowhall-Barnsley-Leeds is electrified as well) - St Pancras through services should end, allowing all 222s to be cascaded to Cross Country to relieve overcrowding there. I assume it is possible to make changes to the computers to allows the 220/1s to talk to the 222s. Manchester-Preston should be electrified, if not this cascade should see 221s with tilt enabled to work Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh services. Some HSTs, if not life expired, could also be cascaded to North East-South West services, allowing the 22x units to be concentrated on North West-South East.

Of course, most of this probably won't happen, but it would solve a lot of problems.

 

[90019]

Displaced 158s from Scottish electrification could also join them, or go to Northern.

I think this is unlikely to happen because the cascades from the electrification and 380s are meaning that the 314s will be scrapped, with the displaced trains going to fill in for other stock or add extra capacitiy AFAIK. I don't think any are actually going to be displaced from the FSR fleet.

 

[WillPS]

Great Western will soon be getting new units for the Cardiff-Portsmouth services, and I think other Bristol area services. That will presumably allow their allocation of class 158s to be transferred to EMT, to allow the Norwich-Liverpool services to be strengthened, preferably all to at least 4 coaches. Displaced 158s from Scottish electrification could also join them, or go to Northern.
Similarly, with the arrival of new units for the Moor St lines (are these going to cover other Birmingham diesel suburban runs as well, ie Rugely, possibly Shrewsbury stoppers). This will allow at the very least the fleet of Tyseley 150s, and probably some or all of the 153s to be cascaded. Hopefully common sense will prevail, and the 150/1s will be concentrated at Newton Heath to allow capacity enhancement and possibly some pacer replacement on North-West suburban services. The 150/2s, including those currently split and formed into 150/1 units, should go to Exeter, to enhance capacity and replace pacers there. Any 153s should go to the East Midlands to provide extra capacity, and perhaps in some cases increase frequencies on local services.
150s displaced by the new Goblin units should join the other 150/1s at Newton Heath.
MML electrification would presumably cover Bedford-Moorthorpe/Nottingham, hopefully with Swinton-Doncaster done as well. If this is completed before the IEPs are intoduced, 90s should be introduced, replacing the HST power cars and utilising modified rakes of mark 3s (it was done with 91s quite easily). Either keep 1 HST power car on each set, or use the spare mark 3 DVTs.
Lincoln/Burton/Barnsley (unless Meadowhall-Barnsley-Leeds is electrified as well) - St Pancras through services should end, allowing all 222s to be cascaded to Cross Country to relieve overcrowding there. I assume it is possible to make changes to the computers to allows the 220/1s to talk to the 222s. Manchester-Preston should be electrified, if not this cascade should see 221s with tilt enabled to work Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh services. Some HSTs, if not life expired, could also be cascaded to North East-South West services, allowing the 22x units to be concentrated on North West-South East.

Of course, most of this probably won't happen, but it would solve a lot of problems.

If EMT do get enough 158s to double up Liverpool-Norwich, then I'd hope they'd refurbish the two 'extra' coaches to have all tables - it'd be mad having 4 high density cars.

Personally, I see semi-permanent 3 car 158s as being more likely.

 

[clagmonster]

I think this is unlikely to happen because the cascades from the electrification and 380s are meaning that the 314s will be scrapped, with the displaced trains going to fill in for other stock or add extra capacitiy AFAIK. I don't think any are actually going to be displaced from the FSR fleet.

Edinburgh-Falkirk-Gasgow, along with Dunblane and Alloa is being done, I believe. Bathgate will also become EMU, and I think the Fife circle is planned. As far as I know the West Highland isn't cleared for 158s, so the 156s will have to stay on there. The far north will presumably stay as 158, but I should imagine the 170s will cope with everything else, which will basically just be the the Highland main line, bits associated with Aberdeen, and the Glasgow South Western, for which I believe RETB 156s are required. I can see the 158s becoming redundent. I will happily be proved wrong, however.

 

[WillPS]

Edinburgh-Falkirk-Gasgow, along with Dunblane and Alloa is being done, I believe. Bathgate will also become EMU, and I think the Fife circle is planned. As far as I know the West Highland isn't cleared for 158s, so the 156s will have to stay on there. The far north will presumably stay as 158, but I should imagine the 170s will cope with everything else, which will basically just be the the Highland main line, bits associated with Aberdeen, and the Glasgow South Western, for which I believe RETB 156s are required. I can see the 158s becoming redundent. I will happily be proved wrong, however.

Why would a 156 get clearance over a 158?? I was under the impression that a Sprinter is a Sprinter is a Sprinter as far as restrictions etc. were concerned?

 

[90019]

Why would a 156 get clearance over a 158?? I was under the impression that a Sprinter is a Sprinter is a Sprinter as far as restrictions etc. were concerned?

158s can't run on the WHL, I seem to remember it being something about the fact that they can't fit, or something along those lines anyway.

 

[clagmonster]

I believe that the stepboards overhang some of the platforms. Even is a 158 were to be cleared, the cascade to England would be essentially the same, just with 156s instead of 158s.

 

[92028]

The 150s are going to Northern. London Midland have 26 150s so I would have thought EMT could have at least 10. This would solve a lot of their problems!

Aren't the LM 150 being split between Northern, FGW and ATW?

 

[MCR247]

Aren't the LM 150 being split between Northern, FGW and ATW?

I thought FGW were getting 172s now, thus giving northern some 142s back. I'm not sure about atw

 

[ukrob]

I thought FGW were getting 172s now, thus giving northern some 142s back. I'm not sure about atw

FGW are getting an as yet unannounced class.

 

[WillPS]

Flipping heck - these Pacers need to be withdrawn, not passed on!