CT - 170s how things change....

[MCR247]

I was just thinking about, how time change. CT used to have loads of 170s service all over the network. I mean CT ran 170s on Liverpool - Norwich, Nottm - Cardiff/Hereford, Birmingham - Stanstead and even some like Like Lincoln - Leicester - Birmingham (before to Leicester then change to B'ham)Nottm - Worksop/Mansfield Wdhse, Nottm - Skeggy, Derby - Matlock & Derby - Crewe. Now some of those routes are still 170s and some are 153s! (CT have 101- 117, all the /5s, all /6s & 397-399). I think that they should a kept it all as one franchise and then just change the operater. What are your views?

 

[xc170]

No I tink it good its been split in to 2/3 franchises, I thinkthe previous network was a bit too big for one toc to manage.

 

[222001]

I think that they should a kept it all as one franchise and then just change the operater. What are your views?

In my opinion the franchises should have remained how they were! They ran a lot better and made better use of stock. I remember in Central Trains days most Liverpool-Norwich services were more than 2 cars long and made use of better 170 stock.
I really feel sorry for services which have single 153s for all or most of day where just over a year ago they were having 2 car 170s! What a downgrade!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also is it just me or do London Midland seem to have more 170s/153s than they need? I've read that 170/153 combos are used on services that do not require them really.

 

[Dave R]

perhaps the split was a bit unfair on the east midlands half, a handful of 170/6s for liverpool-norwich wouldnt have done any harm to the west midlands. East mids could get some 150s when the new 172s arrive for the snow hill lines. where do east mids maintain their DMUs, it used to be tysley in CT days.

 

[Techniquest]

Also is it just me or do London Midland seem to have more 170s/153s than they need? I've read that 170/153 combos are used on services that do not require them really.

Then it's just hearsay, as I know only too well how much they need the combinations in the peak times on the Birmingham to Hereford route.

Unless you've regularly been on the Hereford trains out of Birmingham between 4 and 6pm, you don't know how busy they get. These combinations are about the only thing I'm glad we got London Midland for, otherwise I'd have been happy to see CT about still!

 

[222001]

perhaps the split was a bit unfair on the east midlands half, a handful of 170/6s for liverpool-norwich wouldnt have done any harm to the west midlands. East mids could get some 150s when the new 172s arrive for the snow hill lines. where do east mids maintain their DMUs, it used to be tysley in CT days.

The 150s are going to Northern. London Midland have 26 150s so I would have thought EMT could have at least 10. This would solve a lot of their problems!

 

[1D53]

perhaps the split was a bit unfair on the east midlands half, a handful of 170/6s for liverpool-norwich wouldnt have done any harm to the west midlands. East mids could get some 150s when the new 172s arrive for the snow hill lines. where do east mids maintain their DMUs, it used to be tysley in CT days.

EMT use Etches Park Derby, Nottingham Eastcroft and Leeds Neville Hill.

To correct an earlier post too 170399 is now 170309 and is with TransPennine Express.

 

[WillPS]

No I tink it good its been split in to 2/3 franchises, I thinkthe previous network was a bit too big for one toc to manage.

How exactly? Northern is almost as massive as Central was, and they do a pretty damned good job.

Management was pretty shoddy at Central from what I've heard, by the franchise area seemed pretty well thought out to me. Seperating Mainline from local/cross country services makes sense to me.

What's more, Midland Mainline had a fantastic record - a real success story of privatisation. It was such a shame to see it go.

Then it's just hearsay, as I know only too well how much they need the combinations in the peak times on the Birmingham to Hereford route.

Never been Liverpool - Norwich? Jeeesus! In my opinion, this should be 3-car Turbostars - just as the other ex-Citylink service out of Nottingham now has.

It would definitely had made more sense for London Midland to get more Sprinters, which could then be run in multiple with 153s without the need for 2 guards.

 

[Techniquest]

I'm not saying that EMT don't need more 3-car trains or whatever, as I've seen a Norwich-bound train at Sheffield before now on a Saturday afternoon (must be a bit over 2 years back), which appeared to be wedged and only a 170/5.

What I WAS saying and still am is that people say things like "LM don't need the 153/170 combinations" and "EMT are desperate for additional stock to ease overcrowding, they should send the 153s there", but this is simply not true in reference to the first part. The second part, well yes overcrowding does appear to be a major problem for EMT on the Liverpool to Norwich route (I can't say it is a problem because I've never done their run, only done bits of it with other operators many moons ago. Once I've sampled it, then I'll pass a solid judgement but until then, it's all hearsay and reports back from busy trains), however taking stock away from LM, even just a single 153, would not doubt involve tons of paperwork involving sub-leasing, not to mention the movement of the unit to EMT's depots, then there's familiarising the depot staff with the 153 (although NL already do this AFAIK), re-branding and Goodness knows what else.

One day I will have sampled EMT's notoriously overcrowded Liverpool to Norwich, then I'll have a solid base upon which to base my opinions on what they should do. In the meantime, rather than complaining LM have had the sense to stick a 153 onto a 170 when needed, the better solution all-round would be for a new fleet getting built for EMT or even a new fleet to displace 158s from Northern so EMT can have the 3-car 158s. Sadly logic would get abandoned for the cheapest option from the DfT (which would appear to do absolutely **** all).

 

[Dave R]

i see a 170+153 combo every morning from hereford to new st and it does look very busy i think it used to be a pair of 170/5s last year. overcrowding is a problem for most of the network and there is no simple way to solve this by the number of trains, the only soloution is to get new stock or bring back withdrawn stock. would a 67, 3 mk3s & DVT do for l'pool-norwich.

 

[Pumbaa]

would a 67, 3 mk3s & DVT do for l'pool-norwich.

No, due to no Mk3s available, ****ty linespeeds and it's almost a commuter route, rendering Mk3s silly. Also, the 67s would be subject to stupid speed restrictions even more than the current route.

 

[Mojo]

You've also got some 170+153 combinations on the New Street - Rugeley service as well. Despite the poor service on the lines into Euston, the ex-CT part of LM certaintly seems to have gotten a better deal than the local routes of EMT.

 

[alex57601]

Never been Liverpool - Norwich? Jeeesus! In my opinion, this should be 3-car Turbostars - just as the other ex-Citylink service out of Nottingham now has.

The Liverpool-Norwich route was the original reason why Central Trains ordered the 3-car 170s.

My opinion is that EMT got a raw deal out of the Central Trains split, although what didn't help was that the DafT were completely oblivious to what the TOC's formed out of the split actually needed and when the new franchisees were allowed to initially specify what they needed, they overlapped each other, so the DafT decided for them.

To be honest, EMT have too many 153s as unless they are always paired up, they are causing themselves capacity problems when a single 153 gets kicked out vice 156 or 158. What EMT do need is more 158s - not only will this reduce the likelihood of a 153 or 156 appearing on the important Liverpool-Norwich route, it allows these services to be doubled up without resorting to a 153 or a 156 to strengthen a 158 service and handicap the formation's top speed to 75mph.

A solution would be to do a swap with Northern for a few 158s in return for an equivalent amount of 153s, so say four 2-car 158s for eight 153s. Some of Northern's 158s are allocated to services which don't really need a 158 but are due to Yorkshire Forward/Metro funding, and can be catered for just as well with a pair of 153s. Alternative would be to swap EMT's 156s for the equivalent amount of Northern 158s. But it isn't going to happen!

With regards to Northern themselves, it could be argued that once they acquire LM and LOROL's 150s (and receive the new DMUs they have been allocated) it could allow the release of other units to go elsewhere once the capacity the additional 150s are deployed appropriately, although that's unless Northern decide to attempt to withdraw a few Pacers.

 

[scandal]

The important thing to remember was that Central Trains had many diagrams that worked right across the region. A unit from Worcester could quite easily end up in Lincoln by the evening and so we had the wide variety of units all over the area. In the early 2000s I seem to recall Central Trains fleet diagraming to be "put whatever is started first" on the service, to the tune of 153s on Nottingham - Cardiff meanwhile 170/6 units would be on Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse shuttles. However of course there was by the end of things certainly 2005 onwards that Central Trains wasnt that bad, performance was generally up, cleanliness improved and refurbishments were talked about.

I would of said that Midland Mainline were a rather over rated TOC, the timetable got very padded and they only had a few routes to contend with (infact about 5?) so reliability and cleanliness was never an issue for them - comfortable turnarounds at Nottingham and Sheffield I seem to recall meant that unlike the Central diagrams they never had such intensive work. Meanwhile Central would quite often run a service into New Street and it'd be straight back out again within minutes. This as well as over crowded depots meant that despite Centrals best efforts reliability of stock was never on par.

The split in services id debatable on its benefits, for those in the WM it seems to of been a good deal, those in the EM maybe not so. One of the crucial errors of the splitting has been the non-inclusion of Norwich-Liverpool into the Cross Country services - while it could be argued the route tends to be used by people commuting and only using it a few stops rather then the whole length I believe it fits far better to Intercity rather then regional operations.

All in all it is a shame that the East Midlands, particularly the Norwich - Liverpool route have lost the 170s, but I'd expect in a way this was down to fleet standardisation with the impending 172s heading to LM Tylesy looks set to maintain nearly all Turbostar units.

 

[WillPS]

Ah well, there's always a hope that we'll get Meridians/Pioneers running Norwich to Liverpool. A hope in hell that is.

 

[MCR247]

Ah well, there's always a hope that we'll get Meridians/Pioneers running Norwich to Liverpool. A hope in hell that is.

What about giving them to SWT for some 158 or 159s to strenghten Liverpool - Norwich. Then you can still use sprinter speeds.

 

[ukrob]

What about giving them to SWT for some 158 or 159s to strenghten Liverpool - Norwich. Then you can still use sprinter speeds.

Because there aren't any to 'give away'? Or are we talking in an ideal world?

 

[MCR247]

Because there aren't any to 'give away'? Or are we talking in an ideal world?

I'm on about ginving the some 222s for Exeter/Salisbury/Bristols for some 158s & 159s

 

[ukrob]

I'm on about ginving the some 222s for Exeter/Salisbury/Bristols for some 158s & 159s

But the 158 and 159s then replace what the 222s worked - that doesn't help Liverpool - Norwich

 

[MCR247]

But the 158 and 159s then replace what the 222s worked - that doesn't help Liverpool - Norwich

Yeah, I forgot that I was thinking about when ~MML is electrified.

 

[222001]

What about giving them to SWT for some 158 or 159s to strenghten Liverpool - Norwich. Then you can still use sprinter speeds.

How long are the services that 158/159s are used on in SWT?

When the MML is electrified the 222s will be prime candidate for open access operators such as the 180s are now with Grand Central and Hull Trains.
The 7 car 222s would be good with CrossCountry services.
But I do think some 222s will remain with East Midlands Trains (Mainline) for services not under wires such as the Lincoln servies.

The best thing to do is spend money upgrading the track so 222s can use them at higher speeds on Liverpool-Norwich - it would then be a proper inter-city style service!

BUT by the time the MML is electrified I think new stock will be on order for Liverpool-Norwich as part of the East Midlands franchise renewal (in 6 years time).

 

[daccer]

It seems there is a real shortage of long distance diesel trains whether for inter city or regional operations. This is only going to get worse as passenger growth returns post-recession and IEP will only have a real effect when cascades start post-2015. The real key is electrification.

A very short term solution might be a partial or full electrification of the MML. It is already electrified to Bedford and the formation northwards is very simple.

You can do the work in three stages to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield. Each route is pretty self contained with diagrams to each point. As each 'spoke' is electrified it will release Meridians/HST for cascading.

In the very short term the only suitable stock would probably be 90's (DBS have many in store) and LHCS either MK3's or 2's. The cascaded stock could then be moved onto long distance cross country services such as Norwich-Liverpool (Meridians) and to CrossCountry (HST). Cross Country could then cascade some 4 car Voyagers onto more suitable routes/TOC's.

At the moment EMT and Cross Country are diesel only TOC's. Northern and Transpennine also rely heavily/totally on diesel units. All four TOC's run long distance routes with unsuitable rolling stock. I am not sure if the stock being ordered (the 202 diesel vehicles recently announced) will be suitable for long distance cross country routes and if not the only way to free up vehicles is to try and get current rolling stock onto routes for which they are suited.

Even if a major electrification programme is undertake it will definitely concentrate on trunk routes into London. Cross country routes will need diesel trains for decades to come. At the moment there seems to be little planning for this. I really cant see diesel IEP's being procured as they face redundancy if electrification is ongoing. Even if they are procured will they end up on Norwich-Liverpool services or other such routes. There is also the minor problem of the Pacers and Sprinters fast approaching the twilight of their careers and considering the problems the Dft has had in convincing ROSCO's to invest in a couple of hundred diesel units now I am not sure how complete diesel fleet replacements are going to be financed. As far as I can see there is a ticking diesel time bomb and electrification is the only really cure so why not start with a route which is easy to electrify and which will provide instant cascaded solutions to some of the most critical capacity problems being faced on the network today i.e long distance being run by two car units with no prospect of relief.

 

[ukrob]

It seems there is a real shortage of long distance diesel trains whether for inter city or regional operations. This is only going to get worse as passenger growth returns post-recession and IEP will only have a real effect when cascades start post-2015. The real key is electrification.

A very short term solution might be a partial or full electrification of the MML. It is already electrified to Bedford and the formation northwards is very simple.

You can do the work in three stages to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield. Each route is pretty self contained with diagrams to each point. As each 'spoke' is electrified it will release Meridians/HST for cascading.

In the very short term the only suitable stock would probably be 90's (DBS have many in store) and LHCS either MK3's or 2's. The cascaded stock could then be moved onto long distance cross country services such as Norwich-Liverpool (Meridians) and to CrossCountry (HST). Cross Country could then cascade some 4 car Voyagers onto more suitable routes/TOC's.

Where are these Class 90s, Mk2 and Mk3s in the quantites required?

At the moment EMT and Cross Country are diesel only TOC's. Northern and Transpennine also rely heavily/totally on diesel units. All four TOC's run long distance routes with unsuitable rolling stock. I am not sure if the stock being ordered (the 202 diesel vehicles recently announced) will be suitable for long distance cross country routes and if not the only way to free up vehicles is to try and get current rolling stock onto routes for which they are suited.

In your opinion, what stock do TPE run that is not suitable for long distance? Is it purely because the 185s have 1/3 and 2/3 doors? They are ideal for the routes the 185s run on. Northern run 158's on (some) long distance routes - are they unsuitable too?

The 202 vehicles will also have 1/3 and 2/3 doors.

Even if a major electrification programme is undertake it will definitely concentrate on trunk routes into London. Cross country routes will need diesel trains for decades to come. At the moment there seems to be little planning for this. I really cant see diesel IEP's being procured as they face redundancy if electrification is ongoing. Even if they are procured will they end up on Norwich-Liverpool services or other such routes. There is also the minor problem of the Pacers and Sprinters fast approaching the twilight of their careers and considering the problems the Dft has had in convincing ROSCO's to invest in a couple of hundred diesel units now I am not sure how complete diesel fleet replacements are going to be financed. As far as I can see there is a ticking diesel time bomb and electrification is the only really cure so why not start with a route which is easy to electrify and which will provide instant cascaded solutions to some of the most critical capacity problems being faced on the network today i.e long distance being run by two car units with no prospect of relief.

Whilst I understand what you are saying, I suspect it is a very simplictic and idealistic view of how the railways are (rightly or wrongly) run .

 

[thefab444]

How long are the services that 158/159s are used on in SWT?

Journey times range from about 1h 30 for Waterloo - Salisbury, to nearly 7h for Penzance - Waterloo. They can be formed of anything between 3 and 10 coaches.

 

[Pumbaa]

Journey times range from about 1h 30 for Waterloo - Salisbury, to nearly 7h for Penzance - Waterloo. They can be formed of anything between 3 and 10 coaches.

They don't run past Exeter now however.

 

[daccer]

With regards to finding stock for an MML electrification - DBSchenker have plenty of class 90's and 92's in store. The class 92's could be reinstated and these could cascade 90's to the MML.

With regards to coaching stock - we seem to have plenty of Mk 2's to export to New Zealand who seem to think there is some life left in them yet. The situation with Mk3's is obviously very tight but I am sure some creativity with some of the spot hire guys and some trawling around will bring in a couple of rakes. There are DVT's a plenty parked up also. The point I was trying to make but maybe failed slightly was that this would be a stop-gap procedure to release diesel units and HST's for other routes. Also as soon as IEP is ready the MML can take its IEP units or cascaded 91's/Mk4's without delay. It seems to me that all the talk about electrification of the network has hidden the fact that we are going to need hundreds or even thousands of new diesel units just for renewal of life expired vehicle never mind to cope with future growth. The ROSCO's are very reluctant to get involved with diesel procurement and with a programme of electrification in place for main lines will remain reluctant in case they end up with unusable assets.

I have spoken before about what i perceive as a North-South divide but I think Transpennine Express typifies this perfectly. These should be major inter-city routes - just because they dont include London should not mean they are downgraded. At the moment Tpe run a mix of 2 and 3 car diesel units on what amount to journeys between some of the UK's biggest cities. Of course overcrowing is endemic - these units also have no gangway connections so strengthening results in parts of the train being isolated from the guard/trolley etc. I think this is one part of the network which would see massive growth if investment was put in. A four/five car Voyager would be much more appropriate for such routes.

My worry is that whilst we await IEP in six/seven years time and buy thousands of emus for crossrail and Thameslink routes such as Norwich-Liverpool and York-Blackpool and Cardiff-Portsmouth which are important inter-region routes will continue with ageing two and three car dmu's on slow timings and with no chance of coping with growth. This seems slightly silly when the perfect rolling stock for such routes already exists - they are just in the wrong places. As for this being simplistic - well arent the answer to most things in life normally simple. The railways dont need to be a complicated mess - they used to be a simple mess in BR's days - it just needs someone to point out the Emperor has no clothes on.

 

[dylan_w]

They don't run past Exeter now however.

I thought that hadn't happened yet or have I missed something? According to the SWT timetable there appears to be a number of services to/from Paignton and Plymouth which are past Exeter...there also appears to be a service from Penzance to Waterloo on Sundays

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWTrains/pdfs/TimetablesDecember2008/20Dec08.pdf

See page 14, far right hand side of the page, then look at footnote B

 

[MCR247]

I thought that hadn't happened yet or have I missed something? According to the SWT timetable there appears to be a number of services to/from Paignton and Plymouth which are past Exeter...there also appears to be a service from Penzance to Waterloo on Sundays

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWTrains/pdfs/TimetablesDecember2008/20Dec08.pdf

See page 14, far right hand side of the page, then look at footnote B

Not after december

 

[dylan_w]

Not after december

December this year or last? The timetable seems to indicate that the services still run which goes against what was said in the above post.

 

[MCR247]

December this year or last? The timetable seems to indicate that the services still run which goes against what was said in the above post.

This year