CRS codes for station groups

[yorkie]

I'm informed that the following CRS codes are to be introduced for station groups. They are not in the fares data yet. In future, they will be printed on tickets.

CRS     NLC    Description
BED    0410    Bedford Midland or Bedford St Johns
BST    0418    Birmingham New St, Moor St or Snow Hill
LVP    0435    Liverpool Lime St, Central, James St or Moorfields
LON    1072    London Terminals
WRC    0447    Worcester Shrub Hill or Foregate St
BOO    1780    Bootle New Strand or Oriel Rd
BFO    0424    Bradford Forster Square or Interchange
CAB    0428    Canterbury East or Canterbury West
CAF    0258    Catford or Catford Bridge
CHS    0254    Colchester or Colchester Town
CYD    0449    East or West Croydon
DRC    0429    Dorchester South or Dorchester West
DRK    0416    Dorking, Dorking West or Deepdene
EDE    0259    Edenbridge or Edenbridge Town
EFI    0263    Enfield Chase or Enfield Town
FLK    0431    Falkirk Grahamston or High
FBO    0260    Farnborough Main or Farnborough North
FOL    0432    Folkestone Central or West
GAI    0415    Gainsborough Central or Gainsborough Lea Road
GLW    0433    Glasgow Central or Queen St
HLH    0404    Helensburgh Central or Helensburgh Upper
HRT    0413    Hertford East or North
LTA    4452    London Thameslink
MSE    0437    Maidstone East, West or Barracks
MCR    0438    Manchester Piccadilly, Victoria, Oxford Road or Deansgate
NWK    0441    Newark Castle or Northgate
PNG    0262    Penge East or West
POF    0268    Pontefract Baghill or Monkhill
POS    0440    Portsmouth & Southsea or Harbour
REA    0403    Reading or Reading West
SSN    0411    Southend Central or Victoria
THR    0271    Thorne North or South
TLY    7468    Tilbury Town or Riverside
TYN    0443    Tyndrum Lower or Upper
WAK    0444    Wakefield Westgate or Kirkgate
WRG    0445    Warrington Central or Bank Quay
WSD    0265    West Hampstead or West Hampstead Thameslink
WIG    0446    Wigan North Western or Wallgate

(Just a reminder, the forum does allow the use of correct CRS codes to be used, but please do mention the name of the location first! )

In case you are wondering what CRS or NLC codes are, see:
http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/crs/CRS0.shtm

Computer reservation system (CRS) codes are one way of identifying places, usually stations (though some junctions and depots have codes). They were created to enable the booking of seat reservations by (station-based) computers. Thus, one place where the codes can be seen in everyday use is at the base of seat reservation labels, showing the start and end stations for that particular service....

National location codes (NLCs) are used in an accounting context to identify individual assets, and were first used from 1 January 1968....

 

[Starmill]

These currently appear on some print at home tickets.

 

[JB_B]

Presumably this is to avoid problems like this..

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=121051

 

[RJ]

From a ticket office view it'd be useful to have CRS codes. I use a couple quite regularly. London Terminals is irritating as it's the one location in the entire database the TIS throws a tantrum with when typing in the NLC!

 

[gray1404]

I see they're sticking with London Terminals.

 

[najaB]

I see they're sticking with London Terminals.

What's your suggestion for an alternative?

 

[Wallsendmag]

There's a big big problem splitting London Terminals as we've found out


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[Starmill]

I see they're sticking with London Terminals.

'sticking' with it in so far as a significant minority of tickets have now been migrated away from London Terminals.

As an aside this does expose the bizzare nature of station groups, where they exist for Reading and Bootle, but not for Edinburgh, Cardiff or Burnley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's your suggestion for an alternative?

You'd need a few.

 

[Merseysider]

'sticking' with it in so far as a significant minority of tickets have now been migrated away from London Terminals.

As an aside this does expose the bizzare nature of station groups, where they exist for Reading and Bootle, but not for Edinburgh, Cardiff or Burnley.

...nor for Birkenhead, which has 6!

(North, Park, Central, Hamilton Square, Conway Park, Green Lane)

 

[Paul Kelly]

As an aside this does expose the bizzare nature of station groups, where they exist for Reading and Bootle, but not for Edinburgh, Cardiff or Burnley.

I always understood the general rule to be that they existed where stations on different lines served the same settlement and that a reasonable route to that settlement could involve a train that calls at only one of the stations in the group. The fact that the stations are on different lines therefore means there isn't one station you can buy a ticket to that gives you the flexibility of being valid to all the stations in the group.

This is occasionally true for Reading when CrossCountry services are diverted via Reading West and don't call at Reading (but isn't strictly necessary, assuming arrival from the Oxford direction, as a ticket to Reading would be valid anyway under the 3 mile rule). It looks to be a strange omission that there is no fares group for Burnley, I have to agree. And the one for Bootle doesn't seem to make sense as all trains call at both stations in the group. If you want the flexibility of alighting at either then you'd just buy a ticket to the farther of the two. But the same goes for Cardiff and Edinburgh, as far as I can see - as the likely destination stations (Cardiff Central and Queen Street, Edinburgh Waverley and Haymarket) are effectively on the same lines you'd just buy a ticket to the farther of them (depending on which direction you were coming from) if you needed the flexibility, and there's no need for a fares group.

 

[Starmill]

I suppose you could argue that it is unnecessary for Cardiff and Edinburgh and Exeter, but in my experience lots of people book tickets to the main station, or are given a ticket to the main station because they do not know of the existence of Exeter Central, Cardiff Queen Street or Haymarket, and that later turns out to be of use to them - these stations often are closer to where people want to go, or provide better connections to other public transport.

Of course there is potential for this in many places, and an excess could probably be issued too (although it may be refused). There is also apparently some wish to price some of these deferentially, so it seems they will go on.

According to the logic that you have laid down, which makes very good sense, it seems very odd indeed not to have a group for Burnley and I would also include Blackpool in that. I can only guess that again there may be some desire to keep price differentials for these (although there are astoundingly few for Edinburgh / Haymarket and Burnley).

It only gets more confusing though. If Penge and West Hampstead are entitled to station groups, why not Walthamstow? Why not put Ash Vale and North Camp into a group? Why not Chinley and Chapel-en-le-Frith? If Maidstone is entitled,why not Burscough stations? We have Falkirk stations, but why not have Greenock stations and include Drumforchar and Whinhill?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

From a ticket office view it'd be useful to have CRS codes. I use a couple quite regularly. London Terminals is irritating as it's the one location in the entire database the TIS throws a tantrum with when typing in the NLC!

I really don't see the point in them, and I would presume it is just for:

.... In future, they will be printed on tickets....

As far as I know, all current ticket machines, and journey planners, automatically pick up the group if that is where the fares are to (though I haven't used the myriad of post-SPORTIS on-board machines), the only exception I know of is Manchester Central Zone (MCZ) which is probably seen more as an add-on or Rail-link for the former Manchester Stations fare, rather than a group in it's own right. If I typed an origin of DGT (Deansgate) and destination of EUS (London Euston) into STAR it automatically reverts to Manchester Stations (0438) and London Terminals (1072) when finding the fare.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I was wondering if the existence of the Bootle group went back to the first half of 1948 when British Rail was created and Bootle Balliol Road was still open - as this was on a different line it would have made sense to have a Bootle group back then. But the Wikipedia article on Fares Groups says that Bootle group was created in 1999. As this is relatively recently, a more plausible explanation might then be simply that whoever created the group didn't understand the logic regarding group stations being on different lines. This also holds for the Workington Stations group that was set up temporarily, for fares from certain locations, while Workington North was open in 2010.

There does seem to be something going on in Lancashire particularly with obvious candidates for fares groups not having them. Maybe some historical local resistance to the idea?

 

[alistairlees]

I'm informed that the following CRS codes are to be introduced for station groups. They are not in the fares data yet. In future, they will be printed on tickets.

CRS NLC Description
BST 0418 Birmingham New St, Moor St or Snow Hill

Oh. I'd asked for the Birmingham Stations one to be BIR instead of BST. BIR is currently Bishopstone Hill Rise (by bus) which sees about 1 person a week or something, so it would make more sense for BIR to be reallocated to Birmingham and something else used for Bishopstone Hill Rise (by bus). GTR had agreed to the change.

They are being introduced for eTickets by the way. These are the ones that use the Apple Boarding Pass coupon, which is used by many airlines. This uses a large three-letter code for the airport or station - hence the need to create one for each group station to avoid having an eTicket with a large gap in it below the text.

As to why there are group stations in some places, and not others; or what the collective name for each group station is, that's a topic for another thread I feel!

 

[Starmill]

I really don't see the point in them, and I would presume it is just for:



As far as I know, all current ticket machines, and journey planners, automatically pick up the group if that is where the fares are to (though I haven't used the myriad of post-SPORTIS on-board machines), the only exception I know of is Manchester Central Zone (MCZ) which is probably seen more as an add-on or Rail-link for the former Manchester Stations fare, rather than a group in it's own right. If I typed an origin of DGT (Deansgate) and destination of EUS (London Euston) into STAR it automatically reverts to Manchester Stations (0438) and London Terminals (1072) when finding the fare.

If you type on Manchester Stations to London Terminals, will it show you tickets that are from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you type on Manchester Stations to London Terminals, will it show you tickets that are from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston?

It will show Manchester Stns to London Terminals fares. Even 'Virgin Trains Only' Advance tickets are Manchester Stns to London Terminals.

 

[Starmill]

It will show Manchester Stns to London Terminals fares. Even 'Virgin Trains Only' Advance tickets are Manchester Stns to London Terminals.

How sure are you about that?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

How sure are you about that?

As sure as I can be without a STAR machine sitting in front of me.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Even 'Virgin Trains Only' Advance tickets are Manchester Stns to London Terminals.

Most of them, anyway. http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&rte=474&tkt=VES

 

[causton]

It will show Manchester Stns to London Terminals fares. Even 'Virgin Trains Only' Advance tickets are Manchester Stns to London Terminals.

I think STAR is more advanced than you give it credit for.

Since the May fares change (and for some fares before that), I have had to:
Specifically type in Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston and London Euston to Birmingham New Street, for example, rather than the station groups, for Virgin Trains Only tickets and;
Specifically type in Manchester Stations to London Terminals for Virgin + Connections or Any Permitted tickets.

I believe most places automatically collate them so perhaps STAR does it for you, as Tribute certainly does not anymore.

Edit: As shown in the post above:

Most of them, anyway. http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&rte=474&tkt=VES

The + Connections tickets are listed as from Manchester Stns. The VT Only bear no such listing. This is consistent with what I have to do on Tribute.

 

[Hassocks5489]

A few places mentioned above used to have station groups in the BR era.

• Burnley (NLC 0427): January 1985 to May 1994. Burnley Barracks, Burnley Central, Burnley Barracks, Burnley Manchester Road and (until October 1988) Rose Grove.
• Blackpool (0426): January 1985 to May 1994. Blackpool North and Blackpool South; also Blackpool Pleasure Beach was included for the duration of one fares manual (!) between May and October 1988.
• Exeter (0430): January 1985 to May 1992. Exeter Central, Exeter St David’s and Exeter St Thomas; also St James's Park between January 1986 and January 1989.
• Cardiff (0401): January 1985 to January 1995. Cardiff Bute Road, Cardiff Central, Cardiff Queen Street, and until January 1989 Cathays.
• Birkenhead (0266): January 1994 to September 1994. Birkenhead Hamilton Square, Birkenhead Central, Green Lane, Birkenhead Park and Birkenhead North. Rarely seen on tickets in my experience.
• Greenock (0434): January 1985 to January 1989. Greenock Central and Greenock West.

An NLC (0255) existed for an Edinburgh group comprising Waverley and Haymarket, but I have never seen EDINBURGH BR on a ticket. (<Place name> BR was of course the suffix identifying a station group in pre-privatisation days.)


A group called LONDON SR, covering all the south-of-the-river termini, was introduced in April 1970. This was extended in May 1983 to cover all London termini, as per Selective Prices Manual 27: "As part of the progress towards simplification of routes and a reduction of entries [within the Manual], a common origin/destination of LONDON BR has been adopted for most London fares". National Fares Manual 29 (January 1985) then extended the concept to another 34 towns and cities. There have been various other changes since.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think STAR is more advanced than you give it credit for.

Since the May fares change (and for some fares before that), I have had to:
Specifically type in Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston and London Euston to Birmingham New Street, for example, rather than the station groups, for Virgin Trains Only tickets and;
Specifically type in Manchester Stations to London Terminals for Virgin + Connections or Any Permitted tickets.

I believe most places automatically collate them so perhaps STAR does it for you, as Tribute certainly does not anymore....

Fair enough, I stand corrected on that, I hadn't been told about, or noticed, the change to those fares. Though Journey Planner (which i am more likely to use for Advance tickets) and STAR list all relevant fares whether to/from a group or specific station, with the exception of Manchester CTLZ.

 

[CentralTrainer]

What's your suggestion for an alternative?

London Kingpadcanfriarseuscharliverbridgebonegatepancreasvicloo Church Street is quite snappy