Croydon tram penalty fare

[yorks808]

Hi,

I got on rhe Croydon tram with my GTR staff pass. I told the inspector I left my rail staff travel card at home.

I was in so much stress and anxiety that I thought it's easier I say this than try to find it in my backpack.
Got issued with a penalty notice.

I went in the supermarket straight afterwards and was able to find the staff travel card at the bottom of my bag.

Have I grounds to appeal?

 

[z444z]

Firstly could you please attach a copy of the notice you were given (with personal details redacted)?

 

[Watershed]

For the benefit of others reading this thread who may be unfamiliar with the staff travel facilities in question - a Rail Staff Leisure Card entitles holders to free leisure travel on London Tramlink services. So whether the OP had a valid ticket would depend on whether they were travelling for leisure purposes or something else (e.g. commuting).

As to the OP's question, there is no risk in appealing provided they were indeed using their facilities legitimately. However, TfL Penalty Fares work under a different legal regime (the Greater London Authority Act) than PFs on most National Rail services. We don't see many TfL PF cases and therefore can't give much feedback on the likelihood of an appeal succeeding.

TfL's Penalty Fare Appeals Policy document is worthwhile having a read through to understand the process and the possible grounds of appeal. Having a valid ticket/pass but not showing it at the time isn't directly a listed ground of appeal. You would have to argue that:

There is significant and relevant mitigation and evidence put forward by the appellant to justify discretion

Which does seem a high bar to me and I wouldn't assume that an appeal would automatically succeed in these circumstances. Nevertheless, as mentioned, I see no harm in bringing one. There are three stages of appeal, the first being handled 'in house' by the Tramlink operating company, and the next two externally and independently.

 

[yorks808]

For the benefit of others reading this thread who may be unfamiliar with the staff travel facilities in question - a Rail Staff Leisure Card entitles holders to free leisure travel on London Tramlink services. So whether the OP had a valid ticket would depend on whether they were travelling for leisure purposes or something else (e.g. commuting).

As to the OP's question, there is no risk in appealing provided they were indeed using their facilities legitimately. However, TfL Penalty Fares work under a different legal regime (the Greater London Authority Act) than PFs on most National Rail services. We don't see many TfL PF cases and therefore can't give much feedback on the likelihood of an appeal succeeding.

TfL's Penalty Fare Appeals Policy document is worthwhile having a read through to understand the process and the possible grounds of appeal. Having a valid ticket/pass but not showing it at the time isn't directly a listed ground of appeal. You would have to argue that:


Which does seem a high bar to me and I wouldn't assume that an appeal would automatically succeed in these circumstances. Nevertheless, as mentioned, I see no harm in bringing one. There are three stages of appeal, the first being handled 'in house' by the Tramlink operating company, and the next two externally and independently.

Thanks for your reply.
I was travelling for leisure purposes. It's the first time using public transport in some weeks now because I have been very ill.

I was under so much stress and anxiety that I found it easier to say I didn't have the leisure card on me.

I later found the card which is still attached to the original letter. It's in my backpack, and was on me all along during the journey.

 

[ChilliSauce]

For the benefit of others reading this thread who may be unfamiliar with the staff travel facilities in question - a Rail Staff Leisure Card entitles holders to free leisure travel on London Tramlink services. So whether the OP had a valid ticket would depend on whether they were travelling for leisure purposes or something else (e.g. commuting).

As to the OP's question, there is no risk in appealing provided they were indeed using their facilities legitimately. However, TfL Penalty Fares work under a different legal regime (the Greater London Authority Act) than PFs on most National Rail services. We don't see many TfL PF cases and therefore can't give much feedback on the likelihood of an appeal succeeding.

TfL's Penalty Fare Appeals Policy document is worthwhile having a read through to understand the process and the possible grounds of appeal. Having a valid ticket/pass but not showing it at the time isn't directly a listed ground of appeal. You would have to argue that:


Which does seem a high bar to me and I wouldn't assume that an appeal would automatically succeed in these circumstances. Nevertheless, as mentioned, I see no harm in bringing one. There are three stages of appeal, the first being handled 'in house' by the Tramlink operating company, and the next two externally and independently.

I believe a Rail Staff Leisure card is actually very different to a Staff Travel Card (STC) as the STC is related to Safeguarded Travel Facilities and does indeed allow the holder to travel for free on the Tram link without dating a box .

 

[Watershed]

I believe a Rail Staff Leisure card is actually very different to a Staff Travel Card (STC) as the STC is related to Safeguarded Travel Facilities and does indeed allow the holder to travel for free on the Tram link without dating a box .

Both allow free travel without dating a box, however it's for leisure purposes only in either case.

 

[furlong]

The key fact to establish is whether or not you *knew* you didn't have the pass before you boarded the tram or only discovered later e.g. when the inspector asked to see it.

In the first case, you indeed owe the Penalty Fare (and potentially face sanctions e.g. likely temporary withdrawal of travel facilities) as you were required to purchase a public ticket (i.e. touch in Oyster/contactless) before boarding if you knew you wouldn't be able to present it.

In the second case, you should appeal enclosing a copy of the pass concerned and apologising for failing to check before boarding that you'd be able to present it should you be asked.

In the circumstances, it's probably better just to pay it rather than risk an investigation deciding you knew when you boarded that you wouldn't be able to show a valid ticket.

 

[yorks808]

The key fact to establish is whether or not you *knew* you didn't have the pass before you boarded the tram or only discovered later e.g. when the inspector asked to see it.

In the first case, you indeed owe the Penalty Fare (and potentially face sanctions e.g. likely temporary withdrawal of travel facilities) as you were required to purchase a public ticket (i.e. touch in Oyster/contactless) before boarding if you knew you wouldn't be able to present it.

In the second case, you should appeal enclosing a copy of the pass concerned and apologising for failing to check before boarding that you'd be able to present it should you be asked.

In the circumstances, it's probably better just to pay it rather than risk an investigation deciding you knew when you boarded that you wouldn't be able to show a valid ticket.

Thing is, I didn't actually know I had to show the pass. I showed my Staff Travel Pass from GTR. And the guy asked me what other passes I had on me. I said I didn't have anything else.
Then the guy showed me his rail staff travel leisure card, which I didn't have.

(Later once the penalty fare had been issued I found the original letter in my backpack)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2025 ==

Thing is, I've shown my GTR staff ID before on the tram and no questions were asked.

 

[furlong]

I should just add that your starting point is a poor one as the supermarket excuse does not sound very plausible, as you could equally well have thoroughly searched your bag while still with the inspector rather than waiting.

 

[yorks808]

I should just add that your starting point is a poor one as the supermarket excuse does not sound very plausible, as you could equally well have thoroughly searched your bag while still with the inspector rather than waiting.

Is it easier I pay and then appeal?

 

[furlong]

Let's first establish for certain whether the document you showed was sufficient or not. I.e. if the inspector was correct, I'd not recommend an appeal because there's a risk of an additional sanction. Staff are held to higher standards than the public and they do impose sanctions on staff who got things wrong because they didn't understand the rules.

 

[yorks808]

Let's first establish for certain whether the document you showed was sufficient or not. I.e. if the inspector was correct, I'd not recommend an appeal because there's a risk of an additional sanction. Staff are held to higher standards than the public and they do impose sanctions on staff who got things wrong because they didn't understand the rules.

That's pretty unfair though how staff are held to higher standards than the public.

The amount of passengers I see jumping the barriers or tailgating others through the underground barriers is unreal. I've stood at King's Cross underground and watched passengers with no intention of paying simply hurl abuse at the dateline staff. At Elephant and Castle I've seen passengers enter the underground through the no entry entrance and just force their way through.

 

[John R]

That's pretty unfair though how staff are held to higher standards than the public.

It may be unfair, it may not be. But that’s a different debate, and not one that will help the OP, as from reading many staff cases on here, it would appear that @furlong ‘s observation represents the actual position.

 

[ChilliSauce]

I should just add that your starting point is a poor one as the supermarket excuse does not sound very plausible, as you could equally well have thoroughly searched your bag while still with the inspector rather than waiting.

My view for what it's worth is as you didn't actually show the Staff Leisure Card (non safeguarded) or Staff Travel Card (safeguarded) then I cannot see how you have actually committed a "Staff" travel irregulatity. Not as if you hadn't dated or not dated correctly or was using it for a none leisure purpose etc etc . So nothing to report back to RDG/RSTL on. Does the penalty fare notice make reference to a staff pass? If not then I suggest your being treated as you were just a member of the public who had boarded the Tram with no ticket.

And in this situation that could be a "good deal" .

 

[Mattplans]

That's pretty unfair though how staff are held to higher standards than the public.

Do you really think that? Revenue inspectors are pretty notorious for being unreasonable people, and cases on this forum show that discretion isn't applied in cases where it should be. Why should staff not be subject to higher standards than the public? Especially when the railway seizes any opportunity to enforce these standards? Let's take all of that and multiply it 100x because it's TfL and not a ToC.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Do you really think that? Revenue inspectors are pretty notorious for being unreasonable people, and cases on this forum show that discretion isn't applied in cases where it should be. Why should staff not be subject to higher standards than the public? Especially when the railway seizes any opportunity to enforce these standards? Let's take all of that and multiply it 100x because it's TfL and not a ToC.

Staff are actually on a lot of trust to use their travel facilities in accordance with the rules laid down for their use.. Active staff can be asked to give up their seats when fare payers are standing .. whilst they are asked "not instructed" failure to comply would be deemed a travel irregularity.

Those that are Retired with travel facilities (so only Safeguarded) who hold "All Stations Status Passes" are continually reminded that these passes must only be for leisure use. And anything else will result in loss of the "privilege" . These are "high value" passes so to Speak, given then provide free unlimited travel in 1st Class .. so it is only right that the holders of respect the rules .. And are dealt with accordingly should they not.

 

[furlong]

My view for what it's worth is as you didn't actually show the Staff Leisure Card (non safeguarded) or Staff Travel Card (safeguarded) then I cannot see how you have actually committed a "Staff" travel irregulatity.

It's sufficient to have identified yourself as a member of railway staff attempting to travel free of charge but unable to show any valid authority to make such a journey. This is a breach of the Conditions of Use, namely stating you were making use of your travel facilities but failing to show them. What happened counts as unauthorised use.

2.7 Rail staff travel facilities (e.g. cards, passes, tickets or coupons) must be shown on request, together with any Photo Identity Card or other supporting documents where these are required. They must be shown and/or handed over upon request to a member of staff, or agents, of any carrier on whose service a journey is undertaken. Valid rail staff travel facilities must be held throughout the entire journey, and they should be kept available for inspection at all times.
...
2.15 Any unauthorised use of rail staff travel facilities will be classed as a Travel Irregularity and may result in the withdrawal of rail staff travel facilities, dismissal, and/or legal proceedings against the employee, widow(er) and/or a family member.

Saying you thought the original staff ID entitled you to travel when it didn't isn't a reasonable excuse as it was your responsibility to know the correct validity as part and parcel of the very deal that offered you the free and discounted travel. (You shouldn't have expected the staff ID to provide travel entitlements because if it did they'd be unable to withdraw the entitlement as they can't withdraw that ID. Since almost everyone has both, it's perfectly understandable if showing your staff ID is usually accepted in lieu of the correct documention - but that's only done on the basis that you're trusted to have the correct documentation on your person knowing that the consequences of that not being the case may be very severe for you.)

In your situation, I'd be paying the Penalty Fare and hoping that that's the end of the matter and that the incident wasn't additionally reported to your employer via RSTL. An appeal, particularly one based on excuses demonstrating straightforward non-compliance with both the rules and the law, would seem to make escalation more likely. While losing your job over this incident seems unlikely, it is not impossible.

And do read up on the rules and the full validity so you won't be caught out again!

 

[yorks808]

It's sufficient to have identified yourself as a member of railway staff attempting to travel free of charge but unable to show any valid authority to make such a journey. This is a breach of the Conditions of Use, namely stating you were making use of your travel facilities but failing to show them. What happened counts as unauthorised use.



Saying you thought the original staff ID entitled you to travel when it didn't isn't a reasonable excuse as it was your responsibility to know the correct validity as part and parcel of the very deal that offered you the free and discounted travel. (You shouldn't have expected the staff ID to provide travel entitlements because if it did they'd be unable to withdraw the entitlement as they can't withdraw that ID. Since almost everyone has both, it's perfectly understandable if showing your staff ID is usually accepted in lieu of the correct documention - but that's only done on the basis that you're trusted to have the correct documentation on your person knowing that the consequences of that not being the case may be very severe for you.)

In your situation, I'd be paying the Penalty Fare and hoping that that's the end of the matter and that the incident wasn't additionally reported to your employer via RSTL. An appeal, particularly one based on excuses demonstrating straightforward non-compliance with both the rules and the law, would seem to make escalation more likely. While losing your job over this incident seems unlikely, it is not impossible.

And do read up on the rules and the full validity so you won't be caught out again!

The thing is, I actually had the rail staff travel card in my backpack the whole time.

I was under so much stress and anxiety the whole time that it was easier for me to say I didn't have it.

The guy was pretty ruthless. He asked me what other passes I had. I said I didn't have any others.

 

[yorks808]

The fact is, I've showed my staff ID on the tram before and it's been accepted no problem.
So isn't that a transparency issues among inspectors?

 

[John R]

Lots of people with railcard discounted tickets don’t get asked to show their railcard time after time. It makes no difference when they eventually get asked and cannot produce a valid railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

The fact is, I've showed my staff ID on the tram before and it's been accepted no problem.
So isn't that a transparency issues among inspectors?

I don't think you'd have preferred getting written up for a travel irregularities and getting a disciplinary off the back off it on the first occasion. If you're rail staff you need to show the correct pass. It's on you to remove the Priv card from the letter and carry it with you, I don't think this is asking very much of you to be honest.

 

[RJ]

I'd say just pay the penalty and move on with life. The penalty is for not producing a valid ticket when requested. Other staff have gotten into a lot of trouble for not appreciating that documents have to shown as a condition of getting discounted or free travel.

If showing the Rail Staff Leisure Card is deemed to be an onerous requirement to get free travel then it might be easier to use contactless in future, for peace of mind and to avoid getting a Penalty Fare again.

 

[Belperpete]

The fact is, I've showed my staff ID on the tram before and it's been accepted no problem.
So isn't that a transparency issues among inspectors?

There is a saying "when you are in a hole, stop digging". Do you really think it a good idea to announce on a public forum that this isn't the first time that you have broken the rules? I suspect that anyone from the TfL travel irregularities department reading this site will be able to identify your case.

My recommendation would be to pay the penalty asap, and stop drawing attention to your case. As other posters have noted, the penalties for staff travel irregularities can be very severe. You might not lose your job, but you could lose your travel facilities FOR LIFE.

 

[furlong]

The thing is, I actually had the rail staff travel card in my backpack the whole time.
I was under so much stress and anxiety the whole time that it was easier for me to say I didn't have it.
The guy was pretty ruthless. He asked me what other passes I had. I said I didn't have any others.

So this is also admitting behaving dishonestly by lying to the inspector?

The fact is, I've showed my staff ID on the tram before and it's been accepted no problem.
So isn't that a transparency issues among inspectors?

It's not an issue at all. The responsibility lies with entirely with you either to know you need this document and be able to present it if requested or alternatively to have bought a public ticket. There is no requirement for the inspector to request it, though obviously in the situation described they made a good judgement in doing so.

There is a saying "when you are in a hole, stop digging".

 

[yorks808]

So this is also admitting behaving dishonestly by lying to the inspector?



It's not an issue at all. The responsibility lies with entirely with you either to know you need this document and be able to present it if requested or alternatively to have bought a public ticket. There is no requirement for the inspector to request it, though obviously in the situation described they made a good judgement in doing so.

Not realising I had it on me the whole time is acting dishonestly?
I didn't realise I had it on me. I chose the easy way out by saying I didn't have it on me.

You all clearly have no clue what stress and anxiety I'm under

 

[ChilliSauce]

Not realising I had it on me the whole time is acting dishonestly?
I didn't realise I had it on me. I chose the easy way out by saying I didn't have it on me.

You all clearly have no clue what stress and anxiety I'm under

Can I suggest you will be under more stress and anxiety if through your employer you are facing having to challenge a claim of staff travel irregularity. If you have just been penalty fared as a 'member of the public' without a valid ticket then I personally think that is a good outcome for you.

If you are non safeguarded then in my view your very lucky to have such facilities as unlike safeguarded they are non-contractual, do not attract a Benefit in Kind, and can be withdrawn by the employer at any time.

If you wish to challenge etc and risk a staff travel irregularity with the possible resultant of the loss of all your and your dependants travel facilities for life then just carry on and challenge the penalty fare .. as being unfair.