Croydon Tram Crash

[James H]

Update prepared for next week's TfL board meeting:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/board-20161215-item05-croydon-tram-incident.pdf

Not withstanding the immediate temporary speed restrictions and other steps taken before re-commencement of services, we are reviewing a number of other potential permanent infrastructure and operational enhancements to respond to this incident.

Scroll down in the linked PDF to see a PowerPoint presentation.

 

[BestWestern]

FWIW, most German buses have this kind of lock as well, on Citaros for example you have to turn a knob on the door to release it in emergency. I believe it's not allowed in the UK.

That's interesting, and I would imagine you're correct; I'm rather familiar with buses and I've never come across any sort of physical latching system in the UK. There have been some fairly recent changes to emergency exit arrangements, the most obvious being the moving of the typical emergency door location from the usual rear offside of the bus to a central offside position, as well as the removal of the requirement for an upstairs exit (usually the rear window being a 'door') on double deckers. I gather this is to come in line with standard EU rules?

 

[daikilo]

That's interesting, and I would imagine you're correct; I'm rather familiar with buses and I've never come across any sort of physical latching system in the UK. There have been some fairly recent changes to emergency exit arrangements, the most obvious being the moving of the typical emergency door location from the usual rear offside of the bus to a central offside position, as well as the removal of the requirement for an upstairs exit (usually the rear window being a 'door') on double deckers. I gather this is to come in line with standard EU rules?

I will be very surprised if the EU no longer requires a usable upstairs emergency exit at all, however I have been unable to find evidence.

 

[christopher]

They are now usually windows that break that form the exit rather than doors

 

[Nicks]

Observed in Croydon today, two officials pointing a speed gun at every tram approaching them and recording the data.

 

[edwin_m]

They are now usually windows that break that form the exit rather than doors

Use of breakable (toughened) instead of laminated windows is probably one reason for such a high casualty rate in Croydon...

 

[daikilo]

Observed in Croydon today, two officials pointing a speed gun at every tram approaching them and recording the data.

Ah yes, the defence preparing the case after the horse has bolted, so to speak.

 

[Busaholic]

Ah yes, the defence preparing the case after the horse has bolted, so to speak.

I thought speed guns went out with the last century. If TfL can only discover how fast trams are going by these means, then they really do have problems. It sounds to me like a management v union scenario, where management are indicating they do not necessarily trust their drivers, almost another Southern Railway stand-off, or maybe it is aimed at specific drivers. Not a reassuring sight for passengers, I'd have thought, though some will; I suppose, take the opposite view.

 

[AlterEgo]

I thought speed guns went out with the last century. If TfL can only discover how fast trams are going by these means, then they really do have problems. It sounds to me like a management v union scenario, where management are indicating they do not necessarily trust their drivers, almost another Southern Railway stand-off, or maybe it is aimed at specific drivers. Not a reassuring sight for passengers, I'd have thought, though some will; I suppose, take the opposite view.

They still use speed guns on the Tube. It's not that obsolete. Yet!

 

[Jonny]

I thought speed guns went out with the last century. If TfL can only discover how fast trams are going by these means, then they really do have problems. It sounds to me like a management v union scenario, where management are indicating they do not necessarily trust their drivers, almost another Southern Railway stand-off, or maybe it is aimed at specific drivers. Not a reassuring sight for passengers, I'd have thought, though some will; I suppose, take the opposite view.

It's not the only way to measure speeds, but it is still helpful for measuring "point" speeds rather than average speeds through the tracking system.

 

[bradders1983]

Im sure it would have been in the news but has the driver been charged with anything as of yet?

 

[AlterEgo]

Im sure it would have been in the news but has the driver been charged with anything as of yet?

No. Don't expect anything to happen for a long time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some passengers are taking legal action against TfL:

http://news.sky.com/story/croydon-tram-crash-survivors-take-legal-action-against-tfl-10693246

Survivors of the Croydon tram crash have launched legal action against Transport for London and the tram's operator, First Group.


Seven people died, and 51 were injured, when the tram derailed near Sandilands station on 9 November.

Matthew Hewish, 25, suffered hip and ankle injuries in the crash.

He is one of a number of survivors who are taking legal action against TfL and First Group.

Mr Hewish said: "People died that day, and while I, and others like me, know how lucky we are to have survived, we have the same questions as the families of those who died. We want to know what happened. We want to know what could have been done, if anything to stop it and most importantly we need to stop it ever happening again.

 

[Busaholic]

The old saying 'Justice delayed is justice denied' is no less relevant today than ever, and there are so many examples e.g. Hillsborough, child abuse survivors, etc., but, in this case, so long as there are aspects that require further investigation, a rush to judgment or prosecution would seem unwise. I guess (and it's purely a guess) the police and CPP are unwilling to initiate anything before at least another interim report from the Railway Inspectorate, if not the full-blown thing.

 

[BestWestern]

The old saying 'Justice delayed is justice denied' is no less relevant today than ever, and there are so many examples e.g. Hillsborough, child abuse survivors, etc., but, in this case, so long as there are aspects that require further investigation, a rush to judgment or prosecution would seem unwise. I guess (and it's purely a guess) the police and CPP are unwilling to initiate anything before at least another interim report from the Railway Inspectorate, if not the full-blown thing.

RAIB reports are expressly not intended for use as evidence in legal proceedings, however? I would have thought that by now, even at the glacial pace the authorities like to move, the part played by the Driver would be fairly clear? At least enough to charge him with an offence if appropriate?

 

[Busaholic]

RAIB reports are expressly not intended for use as evidence in legal proceedings, however? I would have thought that by now, even at the glacial pace the authorities like to move, the part played by the Driver would be fairly clear? At least enough to charge him with an offence if appropriate?

I probably didn't make myself clear enough - I'm not suggesting for a minute that the RAIB report would directly lead to a criminal prosecution, just that it might seem strange if the driver was to be charged with whatever, then two weeks later the RAIB reported that the driver was completely exonerated, not that I'm suggesting either that is a likely scenario. I just don't believe that in the real, interconnected world that two entirely separate enquiries are being conducted without reference to one another: indeed, if that were the case then it would be a scandal.

 

[Domh245]

I probably didn't make myself clear enough - I'm not suggesting for a minute that the RAIB report would directly lead to a criminal prosecution, just that it might seem strange if the driver was to be charged with whatever, then two weeks later the RAIB reported that the driver was completely exonerated, not that I'm suggesting either that is a likely scenario. I just don't believe that in the real, interconnected world that two entirely separate enquiries are being conducted without reference to one another: indeed, if that were the case then it would be a scandal.

The spiel at the start of every RAIB report reads thusly:

The purpose of a Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) investigation is to improve railway safety by preventing future railway accidents or by mitigating their consequences. It is not the purpose of such an investigation to establish blame or liability. Accordingly, it is inappropriate that RAIB reports should be used to assign fault or blame, or determine liability, since neither the investigation nor the reporting process has been undertaken for that purpose

my emphasis.

That is a bit of a sticky situation then - the RAIB report is in theory a factual summary of the facts, but according to them, shouldn't be used to assign blame, so you'd think that it would make it unusable in court. I imagine that they might be able to get away with using the first parts of the report ("The accident" and "The sequence of events") as evidence in a court as up to there, it is all factual reporting.

 

[rebmcr]

While the report cannot be formally used as a legal conclusion, the various bodies involved in the incident will almost certainly be coordinating their actions.

 

[James H]

Quite a lengthy discussion on this at the TfL board meeting this week - webcast here:

https://www.london.gov.uk/transport-london-board-meeting-2016-12-15

 

[Busaholic]

While the report cannot be formally used as a legal conclusion, the various bodies involved in the incident will almost certainly be coordinating their actions.

I cannot see that any other scenario is possible. In a fatal road accident the specialist police officers have the necessary expertise, born unfortunately of too much experience of such matters, to do the measurements, the physical examination of vehicles, road, etc, as well as taking statements from the living. With a fatal tram crash I would be highly sceptical that any policeman, even with the BTP, would have sufficient knowledge/expertise etc to be doing any of the technical analysis and will have to rely heavily on those industry individuals and be largely guided by them in assessing the culpability, if any, of the tram driver. A dossier/file will at some stage have to go from the Met Police to the CPS, unless the individual in the meantime is formally told no charge will be laid, as was the case with the Glasgow bin lorry driver, in which case he will be released from police bail. To proceed with a prosecution the CPS will require the test of a realistic prospect of conviction to be met. If the case came to court and the prosecution were unable to come up with the technical evidence as to how the tram was being driven then it would almost certainly get thrown out, so the conclusion must be there will be collusion (not a bad thing, in these circs) between police and 'experts'.

 

[QueensCurve]

a bit of a sticky situation then - the RAIB report is in theory a factual summary of the facts, but according to them, shouldn't be used to assign blame, so you'd think that it would make it unusable in court. I imagine that they might be able to get away with using the first parts of the report ("The accident" and "The sequence of events") as evidence in a court as up to there, it is all factual reporting.

RAIB do not seek to apportion blame.

I don't for a moment think that others will hold back from using its findings to assign blame and punishment if they can.

That said we don't have a RAIB report yet.

RAIB have called for witnesses.

 

[ainsworth74]

I have a feeling that at least on one occasion in the past (I'm thinking it was that horrible incident at James Street in Liverpool) the RAIB held off from publishing their report until the criminal proceedings against the guard were concluded. This was to avoid prejudicing anything in the trial with their findings.

 

[QueensCurve]

I have a feeling that at least on one occasion in the past (I'm thinking it was that horrible incident at James Street in Liverpool) the RAIB held off from publishing their report until the criminal proceedings against the guard were concluded. This was to avoid prejudicing anything in the trial with their findings.

I personally think that puts the cart befor the horse.

 

[gsnedders]

I have a feeling that at least on one occasion in the past (I'm thinking it was that horrible incident at James Street in Liverpool) the RAIB held off from publishing their report until the criminal proceedings against the guard were concluded. This was to avoid prejudicing anything in the trial with their findings.

Was anyone from the RAIB called as a witness?

 

[AlterEgo]

I have a feeling that at least on one occasion in the past (I'm thinking it was that horrible incident at James Street in Liverpool) the RAIB held off from publishing their report until the criminal proceedings against the guard were concluded. This was to avoid prejudicing anything in the trial with their findings.

Yes, the RAIB report on James St was after the court proceedings were finished.

 

[Muzer]

The issue with using RAIB report findings as evidence in order to apportion blame is it might lead to people who really did do something wrong withholding important evidence that would otherwise help improve safety. I don't know if this is how it works or not, but IMHO if RAIB really is only about safety none of their evidence should be permissible in criminal proceedings, or at least, none of the evidence deduced via statements from the person being tried.

 

[edwin_m]

The issue with using RAIB report findings as evidence in order to apportion blame is it might lead to people who really did do something wrong withholding important evidence that would otherwise help improve safety. I don't know if this is how it works or not, but IMHO if RAIB really is only about safety none of their evidence should be permissible in criminal proceedings, or at least, none of the evidence deduced via statements from the person being tried.

Going by the preambles to their reports, the MAIB has such a law but RAIB doesn't.

 

[gsnedders]

Going by the preambles to their reports, the MAIB has such a law but RAIB doesn't.

MAIB = Marine Accident Investigation Branch for anyone who like me doesn't know.

 

[littlerock]

A bus overturned in fog on the M40 last night and went onto the grassy verge. There were 17 injuries but no fatalities. Trams are supposedly built to the same safety standards and yet the Croydon crash was much more serious. I am posting a link here to the Daily Mail coverage which has a lot of photos. The bus's windows do not appear to be broken. I realise the bus would have been going more slowly than the tram but is this the whole story? Did the bus have stronger windows? Interested in your views.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-grip-UK-weather-warnings-place-country.html

 

[daikilo]

A bus overturned in fog on the M40 last night and went onto the grassy verge. There were 17 injuries but no fatalities. Trams are supposedly built to the same safety standards and yet the Croydon crash was much more serious. I am posting a link here to the Daily Mail coverage which has a lot of photos. The bus's windows do not appear to be broken. I realise the bus would have been going more slowly than the tram but is this the whole story? Did the bus have stronger windows? Interested in your views.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-grip-UK-weather-warnings-place-country.html

The coach appears to be a recent Volvo/Plaxton Elite Interdeck. The BBC has a report also with additional photos including one after the vehichle had been righted. It looks to me that at least the first upper-deck window on the left side is missing along with a body panel (could be glass also). Of course this could have occured during the recovery. I have been unable to find details of the window construction but I would not be surprised if it is laminated.

 

[Clip]

A bus overturned in fog on the M40 last night and went onto the grassy verge. There were 17 injuries but no fatalities. Trams are supposedly built to the same safety standards and yet the Croydon crash was much more serious. I am posting a link here to the Daily Mail coverage which has a lot of photos. The bus's windows do not appear to be broken. I realise the bus would have been going more slowly than the tram but is this the whole story? Did the bus have stronger windows? Interested in your views.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-grip-UK-weather-warnings-place-country.html

There is a thread in teh bus forum abotu this and someone has suggested that the bus driver may have mistaken the turning for another due to the bad weather and again may have been going to fast which led to it overturning.

Couldnt tell you about the glass on them being the same however everyone on a coach must be seated and on a tram they dont and I do believe coaches have seatbelts which again trams dont. Also are the windows the same size as the tram? Do we know if those thrown from the tram were in the seats of the tram? I dont think we do so i dont think we can try and compare the two incidents with similar scrutiny.