Croydon Tram Crash

[ScouserGirl]

Everyone needs to stop the speculation.. just wait unti RAIB realease the full report..
My thoughts go out to everyone involved in this terrible accident.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I have 2 questions.
1, how many people were on the tram, have BTP said ?

2 whats the seating on these trams ? Longitudinal as on London Overground trains , or more conventional rear/ forward facing ?

Thanks

It's conventional rear/forward facing - no longitudinal as far as I know. Don't think anything has been said about the loading of the tram involved.

 

[J-2739]

I suppose that if the trams were built to railway crashworthyness standards (like a tram-train), the impact would have been less severe?

 

[All Line Rover]

Well the issue does keep coming up and nobody has explained exactly what they expect to see on their TV screen?

What anyone would expect to see when a serious rail incident occurs. Not rolling footage of the scene, but simply an acknowledgement that the incident has occurred, a brief summary of the facts, and a telephone number that people with concerns can contact. This was successfully managed in a mere 3 minutes on the domestic BBC News at Six news this evening (after 33 minutes of US election coverage - perhaps those 3 minutes could have been moved to an earlier part of the programme). The BBC had plenty of opportunities earlier today to set aside 3 minutes to cover the story.

 

[68000]

Everyone needs to stop the speculation.. just wait unti RAIB realease the full report..

May as well close the thread then as the report will take about a year

 

[richw]

It's conventional rear/forward facing - no longitudinal as far as I know. Don't think anything has been said about the loading of the tram involved.

As far as I rememberThere is only around 25 seats per set, they have large standing areas. 50 injured and 7 deceased tells us there were twice as many people as seats.
Btp say 8 of those injured are life threatening injuries.

 

[Bungle73]

As far as I rememberThere is only around 25 seats per set, they have large standing areas. 50 injured and 7 deceased tells us there were twice as many people as seats.
Btp say 8 of those injured are life threatening injuries.

That can't be right, surely? There must be more than 25 seats in two carriages??

 

[Chris M]

I have 2 questions.
1, how many people were on the tram, have BTP said ?

2 whats the seating on these trams ? Longitudinal as on London Overground trains , or more conventional rear/ forward facing ?

Thanks

Most of the seating is transverse, but there are a few longitudinal seats and lots of standing room.
See https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Beckenham_Junction_station_MMB_04_2544.jpg for a good photo (it's from 2011 but all that has changed is the colour of the grab poles and moquette).

The only thing I've seen on the loading was that it was "crowded". I'm bad at estimating numbers, but as Wikipedia reports them as having 70 seats and capacity for 138 standing per tram I think there would need to be significantly more than 58 people on board for it to feel crowded.

 

[Haydn1971]

As far as I rememberThere is only around 25 seats per set, they have large standing areas. 50 injured and 7 deceased tells us there were twice as many people as seats.

The CR4000s have 70 seats and standing room for 138, I'd expect most passengers would be seated on a early tram.

 

[Chris M]

That can't be right, surely? There must be more than 25 seats in two carriages??

35 seats in each carriage, 70 per tram.
FWIW the newer Variobahn units have 72 seats per tram.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry but that is nonsense. Had it been any other day this story would have been a story high up the agenda on the national news. Look at the Alton Towers accident last year, nobody died then and there wasn't many TV friendly pictures, but it was top story off and on for days.

It was obviously decided that the U.S. Election shouldn't just be the top story, but the only story this morning.

It wasn't clear for several hours that this was even a serious accident with fatalities. Give us all a break please.

 

[bengley]

I suppose that if the trams were built to railway crashworthyness standards (like a tram-train), the impact would have been less severe?

The vehicle actually appears not to have suffered much damage at all (which would have caused injury to those inside)

I reckon the injuries and deaths would have been caused by the rapid deceleration and overturning.

 

[dosxuk]

The vehicle actually appears not to have suffered much damage at all (which would have caused injury to those inside)

I reckon the injuries and deaths would have been caused by the rapid deceleration and overturning.

Or, as I suspect more likely, being ejected from the vehicle.

 

[RobShipway]

My heart goes out to those that have relatives or friends killed in the tram crash today and to the 50 people injured.

As has been said already I think that we need to wait for the RAIB report as I notice on the BBC news website that they are saying that the driver has been arrested for speeding faster on the route, than they should have been. However, these sort of accusations have within days been found out not to be true, so best to wait until the RAIB have been able to fit together the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle rather than guessing.

 

[96tommy]

When I created this threat at the break of dawn this morning I could not imagine how severe the incident would turn out to be. Thoughts with the families and friends of those who have sadly passed away or are injured.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

BBC homepage now showing an image confirming the vehicle involved is 2551

 

[richw]

My heart goes out to those that have relatives or friends killed in the tram crash today and to the 50 people injured.

As has been said already I think that we need to wait for the RAIB report as I notice on the BBC news website that they are saying that the driver has been arrested for speeding faster on the route, than they should have been. However, these sort of accusations have within days been found out not to be true, so best to wait until the RAIB have been able to fit together the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle rather than guessing.

But the BBC are just recycling and joining together what has been said by RAiB in their initial statement and BTP already.
RAiB have said the tram was going overspeed, the BTP have said the driver is arrested under suspicion of manslaughter. Certainly not speculation when quoting those two sources.

 

[2000]

From the BBC:

British Transport Police said they were investigating whether he fell asleep.

There must be some sort of basis for this investigation.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

But the BBC are just recycling and joining together what has been said by RAiB in their initial statement and BTP already.
RAiB have said the tram was going overspeed, the BTP have said the driver is arrested under suspicion of manslaughter. Certainly not speculation when quoting those two sources.

There must be some sort of basis for this investigation.

Given that most of those onboard a service at that time in the morning are probably regular commuters they will be very familiar with the slow-down to that corner and know if the train appeared or felt to be going faster. Combined with the fact that the drivers have glass panels behind them means that the passengers at the front probably had a clear view of what was happening, interviews with them will have very quickly given suggestions as to what may have caused the crash.

Being able to see but not intervene in something like that is horrible to think about really, I hope those who have survived manage to move on from such a horrific incident.

 

[mirodo]

I have seen a post on Facebook from the end of October where someone reported a tram taking the same corner at considerable speed. "We thought our time was up" is the phrase used.

 

[bengley]

My heart goes out to those that have relatives or friends killed in the tram crash today and to the 50 people injured.

As has been said already I think that we need to wait for the RAIB report as I notice on the BBC news website that they are saying that the driver has been arrested for speeding faster on the route, than they should have been. However, these sort of accusations have within days been found out not to be true, so best to wait until the RAIB have been able to fit together the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle rather than guessing.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a bit of speculation on a discussion forum. Nobody here is going to hinder the investigation by speculating.

 

[LeylandLen]

Thanks for info abo ut the seating and capacity and where to look for more info.

Yes condolences to the relatives of deceased and seriously injured who could lose limbs. It must be a horrible job retrieving the deceased ; somebody has to do as as do the wonderful NHS staff tending to the injured.

 

[J-2739]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a bit of speculation on a discussion forum. Nobody here is going to hinder the investigation by speculating.

I think he means it's the fact that speculation could be seen as disrespectful to those who died, were involved, or related.

 

[68000]

This will probably lead to some sort of TPWS type solution for PSRs like that bend on Tram systems

 

[berneyarms]

Thanks for info abo ut the seating and capacity and where to look for more info.

Yes condolences to the relatives of deceased and seriously injured who could lose limbs. It must be a horrible job retrieving the deceased ; somebody has to do as as do the wonderful NHS staff tending to the injured.

Very true - I think it's important that we never lose sight of how brave the emergency services staff all are in tragic circumstances such as this.

 

[Chris M]

From the BBC:


There must be some sort of basis for this investigation [into whether thdriver fell asleep].

Yes - allegations from passengers that he was or might have been asleep that are sufficiently plausible that they warrant investigation and cannot be immediately proven incorrect.

 

[WatcherZero]

Hope the investigation is better handled than the Glasgow Bin Lorry crash at Christmas two years ago.

 

[Antman]

I have seen a post on Facebook from the end of October where someone reported a tram taking the same corner at considerable speed. "We thought our time was up" is the phrase used.

I've been on trams that have taken that curve a bit quicker than usual but it certainly didn't give me any cause for alarm.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the BBC are just recycling and joining together what has been said by RAiB in their initial statement and BTP already.
RAiB have said the tram was going overspeed, the BTP have said the driver is arrested under suspicion of manslaughter. Certainly not speculation when quoting those two sources.

I think it is blindingly obvious that the tram was going too fast or it wouldn't have overturned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When I created this threat at the break of dawn this morning I could not imagine how severe the incident would turn out to be. Thoughts with the families and friends of those who have sadly passed away or are injured.

Indeed and when I heard about it on the car radio this morning I expected it to be something relatively minor, I certainly didn't envisage fatalities.

 

[mirodo]

I've been on trams that have taken that curve a bit quicker than usual but it certainly didn't give me any cause for alarm.

The quote in full:

Oh mate... 30 of us on the tram this morning and we all thought our time was up

 

[Busaholic]

I'm not sure anyone has mentioned the maximum permitted speed on this curve - it is 25 km per hour, equating to 16 mph. I believe at the time of the accident it would still have been pretty dark given the time of year, also the weather conditions. The BTP have stated the tram was moving 'considerably in excess' of this speed. I believe the theoretical top speed of these trams is 50 mph, not that they should get anywhere near approaching that speed at any point ever. I also know from having been in Croydon by sheer chance when the first-ever public tram went through that there was almost a tragic accident by the almshouses at the end of George Street when a toddler ran out in front of it - only the tram bell, which was an afterthought to the original plan, being deployed saved him being struck.