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Croydon Chaos Again

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Chrisgr31

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For the second time in as many weeks a person under a train has caused chaos to Southerns travellers passing through the East Croydon/South Croydon pinchpoint.

It gets difficult to remember exactly what incidents there are in the Croydon area to cause chaos but I assume that the proposers for BML2 are keeping a record and working out the cost of the chaos, in order to prove that BML2 is a great plan?

Equally though what can Southern and FCC do to improve the chaos that does occur at this time? Can they produce alternative travel routes between stations that remain operational? Can they widen ticket availability (eg whilst at Crowborough this morning 2 buses to Tunbridge Wells arrived but very few used them as they would need to buy a ticket)?
 
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tsr

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I believe tickets were accepted on Southeastern on all reasonable routes, including the whole route from Hastings to Charing Cross, fairly early on in the course of the disruption. Other alternative routes available (but not useful in your case) included FGW from Gatwick/Redhill to Dorking/Guildford, then SWT and Tramlink/Tube/etc. There was also acceptance on Metrobus, Brighton & Hove Buses and London Buses.

I have heard that ticket acceptance was not well publicised on trains or at stations, and from both these reports and my prior experience of such incidents, I can understand that it was easy to believe that you had to pay extra to use other operators' services.

It would be ideal to put chords back in on the North Downs Line at Dorking and also on the Redhill to Tonbridge Line, electrify Reigate-Shalford Junction and build a flyover at Redhill... you could in theory divert trains via Redhill, Dorking and towards Sutton (or wherever)... but is the cost worth it, and would there be a major capacity issue on the North Downs Line? No and yes are the realistic answers for now... sadly!
 
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steamybrian

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For the second time in as many weeks a person under a train has caused chaos to Southerns travellers passing through the East Croydon/South Croydon pinchpoint.

It gets difficult to remember exactly what incidents there are in the Croydon area to cause chaos but I assume that the proposers for BML2 are keeping a record and working out the cost of the chaos, in order to prove that BML2 is a great plan?

Equally though what can Southern and FCC do to improve the chaos that does occur at this time? Can they produce alternative travel routes between stations that remain operational? Can they widen ticket availability (eg whilst at Crowborough this morning 2 buses to Tunbridge Wells arrived but very few used them as they would need to buy a ticket)?

There are 6 platforms at East Croydon so presume Southern closed all 6 platforms??
BML2 is non-runner.....(forget this idea!!)
It appears today if there is an incident then close the whole line .
In my BR working days it was minimise the closure to the affected tracks only. Tickets would have been accepted on a much wider selection of routes because BR had full control over all train services.
Sorry to get on my "soap box".
 

GodAtum

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I dont understand why it too so long to clear. A similar incident at Guildford everything was fine after an hour or so.
 

tsr

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There are 6 platforms at East Croydon so presume Southern closed all 6 platforms??
BML2 is non-runner.....(forget this idea!!)
It appears today if there is an incident then close the whole line .
In my BR working days it was minimise the closure to the affected tracks only. Tickets would have been accepted on a much wider selection of routes because BR had full control over all train services.
Sorry to get on my "soap box".

This incident happened at around 0521 on the approach to Platforms 5/6 at East Croydon, which (in layman's terms) lead onto the Uckfield/East Grinstead & Slow Lines. Platforms 1 & 2 and the Fast Lines were reopened after approximately 52mins, with all lines opened by around 0754.

I dont understand why it too so long to clear. A similar incident at Guildford everything was fine after an hour or so.

This was an incident which required a long cleanup to allow the train involved to move and the scene to be cleared of any evidence. I believe the train involved was unable to move for 142 minutes.
 

Mcr Warrior

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:roll: The route of BML2 (i.e. as alternative to the Brighton Main Line) looks as if it would pass through South Croydon and East Croydon, so not sure if it would provide actually an effective alternative route.

bml2-map_720.jpg


P.S. This area is indeed a major pinchpoint, as was evidenced by the chaos caused in the immediate aftermath of the August 2011 mudslide.
 

steamybrian

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BML2 as planned would use the route of the former BR line between Selsdon-Elmers End line the trackbed of which is now mainly occupied by the Croydon Tramlink. How more trains could be accommodated on the Mid-Kent line north of Elmers End and through Lewisham is beyond belief. The route through Lewisham is already full during the peak hours which the above diagram does not mention.
My comments about the author of this project are "censored".
 
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ushawk

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BML2 as planned would use the route of the former BR line between Selsdon-Elmers End line the trackbed of which is now mainly occupied by the Croydon Tramlink. How more trains could be accommodated on the Mid-Kent line north of Elmers End and through Lewisham is beyond belief. The route through Lewisham is already full during the peak hours which the above diagram does not mention.
My comments about the author of this project are "censored".

Its simply a jazzed-up way to get Uckfield-Lewes open - nothing more, nothing less. It will NEVER happen, simple as that.

As TSR said, there was a bit of a mess and without wanting to sound morbid, issues with the recovery. Because of this the slows had to remain closed until the train was able to be cleared. Croydon is congested at the best of times, so if you reduce it to 2 lines through the area, you have prolonged chaos.
 

dk1

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I planned on catching the 09.55 Eastbourne-Victoria then the 12.30 Liverpool St-Norwich so with the 09.55 cancelled then the 10.32 delayed it looked bleak.

I ended up catching the 10.09 to Ashford Intl then the 11.43 SE High Speed to Stratford Intl arriving 12.14 & even had time to pop into M&S at Westfield before boarding my intended 12.30 GA service at Stratford at 12.38. Great work all round from the very friendly & helpful staff at both Southern & SouthEastern.
 

Kentish Paul

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I planned on catching the 09.55 Eastbourne-Victoria then the 12.30 Liverpool St-Norwich so with the 09.55 cancelled then the 10.32 delayed it looked bleak.

I ended up catching the 10.09 to Ashford Intl then the 11.43 SE High Speed to Stratford Intl arriving 12.14 & even had time to pop into M&S at Westfield before boarding my intended 12.30 GA service at Stratford at 12.38. Great work all round from the very friendly & helpful staff at both Southern & SouthEastern.

Try Waitrose, they seem to be better. My stop after a 12hr day shift on the way home from Canning Town.
 

Chrisgr31

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The delays and cancellations continued in to the peak this evening, several Southern trains cancelled due to staff shortages (presumably they were in the wrong place) and other trains were late.

As a matter of interest who is the blame for all these delays placed on is it Southern or Network Rail.

Personally I can't see the Uckfield - Lewes line re-opening, and in any event it doesn't solve the East Croydon problem unless using the route currently used by the tram to get round East Croydon. Mind you if you were going to return that to heavy train use surely you could actually create a link through from the main line coming through the allotments just north of Purleys Oaks station?

Money would seem better spent on sorting out other diversionary routes. However as I originally asked does anyone calculate the theoretical cost of a day like today?

Also glad someone has reminded me when the burst water main was as it feels like yesterday but was 2 years ago!
 

Bald Rick

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The delays and cancellations continued in to the peak this evening, several Southern trains cancelled due to staff shortages (presumably they were in the wrong place) and other trains were late.

As a matter of interest who is the blame for all these delays placed on is it Southern or Network Rail.

Personally I can't see the Uckfield - Lewes line re-opening, and in any event it doesn't solve the East Croydon problem unless using the route currently used by the tram to get round East Croydon. Mind you if you were going to return that to heavy train use surely you could actually create a link through from the main line coming through the allotments just north of Purleys Oaks station?

Money would seem better spent on sorting out other diversionary routes. However as I originally asked does anyone calculate the theoretical cost of a day like today?

Also glad someone has reminded me when the burst water main was as it feels like yesterday but was 2 years ago!

Network Rail gets the delays. The costs of the delay is convoluted, but it will be in the order of £1m paid by NR to Southern, FCC and LOROL combined.

The big issue is Southern's difficulty in recovering the train service; they lose track of crews. In mitigation, Croydon is THE worst place for a fatality on the Southern network, especially a nasty one as this morning. But there's no excuse for trains running late 10 hours later.
 

Chrisgr31

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Network Rail gets the delays. The costs of the delay is convoluted, but it will be in the order of £1m paid by NR to Southern, FCC and LOROL combined.

The big issue is Southern's difficulty in recovering the train service; they lose track of crews. In mitigation, Croydon is THE worst place for a fatality on the Southern network, especially a nasty one as this morning. But there's no excuse for trains running late 10 hours later.

Thanks for the information about costs of delays. I guess you don't get many railway junctions etc for £1 million hence it not being economical to do changes to try and find a way round this bottleneck.

I do think it is the recovery issue that needs looking at in greater detail. I wonder how much investigation goes in to these incidents afterwards to see how the recovery worked, and whether there were any options that would have been better so at least lessons are learnt for the next occasion.

Mind you the good news of the extended recovery period is that for the third train journey in a row I can claim delay repay. Beginning to get fixated by Delay Repay and sit there calculating how much compensation I will get!
 

Clip

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I dont understand why it too so long to clear. A similar incident at Guildford everything was fine after an hour or so.

Sorry to sound grim but it really does depend on how fast the train was going and how far it stopped after hitting said person. Theres a lot of tissue thats going to be need to be picked up you know.


Also IIRC its clasased as a crime scene until the Police say otherwise but from the posts just below yours it appears all lines reopened within 2.5 hours which isnt bad.
 

elementalpat

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Now another person has been hit at New Cross Gate after the morning peak.

Southern really has had it bad in the past few weeks as well as the passengers.

I am sure they are doing a great job under the circumstances, but some of the twitter messages they have got are pretty apalling!
 

ushawk

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Some lines at New Cross Gate are now open again. Incident happened on the DF involving the 11.08 London Bridge - Uckfield service.

RE the Twitter messages, thats society these days. Some people dont care that some people have been killed and that families have lost a loved one, they only care about when they can get home and watch some crap on the TV.
 

zoneking

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Ideally, at Croydon and Windmill Bridge Junction, there would be complete separation of fast lines to LBR and VIC, same with slow lines. There would be no flat junctions. This would need 8 tracks and platforms. I was an hour late into work yesterday, but an hour late is nothing compared to a fatality and bereavement, so I do have a sense of perspective.
 

Chrisgr31

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RE the Twitter messages, thats society these days. Some people dont care that some people have been killed and that families have lost a loved one, they only care about when they can get home and watch some crap on the TV.

I doubt its that they don't care, its that they don't know them and of course the impact of the incident spreads far and wide. The reality is of course a fatal accident on the road can result in the road being shut for many hours, but in most cases there are many alternative routes to avoid the congestion.

Rail transport is I suspect subject to many more suicide attempts than any other type of transport and this is the third incident to have affected the Southern lines in 2 weeks, in fact add in tresspasser incidents and its probably a lot more. Passengers are therefore becoming insensitive to these events.

Hopefully the location of this will mean that recovery of the train service is much quicker.
 

A-driver

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I doubt its that they don't care, its that they don't know them and of course the impact of the incident spreads far and wide. The reality is of course a fatal accident on the road can result in the road being shut for many hours, but in most cases there are many alternative routes to avoid the congestion.

Rail transport is I suspect subject to many more suicide attempts than any other type of transport and this is the third incident to have affected the Southern lines in 2 weeks, in fact add in tresspasser incidents and its probably a lot more. Passengers are therefore becoming insensitive to these events.

Hopefully the location of this will mean that recovery of the train service is much quicker.

Indeed. I don't think people are being insensitive when they complain after fatalities, the problem is that an the immediate aftermath when everything is at a stand the are no answers to give passengers and that is, understandable, difficult for people to understand. When you ask "how long until my train starts to move again" and get an answer along the lines of "nobody knows" it's very frustrating.

I have been caught up in a fair few resulting delays as a driver and when speaking to passengers all I can say is what has happened, nothing can move past the area and that I will update when I get more info. People then ask me the same question over and over which no one can answer...how long until we will get moving again. I don't think it's insensitive, why should anyone trying to get home after a long day at work care about someone who has been killed, its not like they knew them and many people die every hour in various ways, just so happens that these deaths cause travel problems aswell. But the problem is that no one knows how long until trains will move again.

I always explain this but an open ended delay is certainly very frustrating for all and people find it difficult to understand that we are waiting police, paramedics, a doctor, fire crews and an undertaker to arrive from all over the area, once all these people arrive they need to do what they need to do which can take a while, the police need to make sure they have all the evidence they need before authorising the clear up, the clear up can take various amounts of time depending and that's before the headache starts of trying to piece the service back together with trains and train crews stranded all over etc.

And when this happens in the morning rush hour it is rare to recover the service fully within that same day, especially at busy 'pinch points' or networks such as the Thameslink where a fatality in Sussex can quickly disrupt a completely different region such as Bedfordshire. It will take hours and hours to get all trains and crews back on diagram and in the mean time there will be constant problems with stock not being where it should be, crew breaks and driving hours causing problems and trains waiting a relief driver who is somewhere else (and its not as simple as asking the current driver to carry on as that then means that drivers next train will have no relief etc).
 

Bald Rick

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I do think it is the recovery issue that needs looking at in greater detail. I wonder how much investigation goes in to these incidents afterwards to see how the recovery worked, and whether there were any options that would have been better so at least lessons are learnt for the next occasion.

Pretty much every incident that causes more than 1000 delay minutes is reviewed in detail. Recovery in this respect is about recovery of the train service, not recovery of the deceased. Lessons are learned, but I'm afraid that what is really needed is a few spare drivers around. Unfortunately train operators have pared spare cover right back to almost non-existent to save cash, which means that reactionary delays are much worse than they used to be. Which means that NRs penalty payments to train operators for big incidents (and big incidents are almost invariably NRs) are much greater than they used to be. So the TOC saves cash and makes cash. Trebles all round!
 

sarahj

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The train in question was also damaged. So it was a while before it could be moved. Plus point was once it was on the move, it did not have far to go.
It was a fun morning. I took a 442 up to Gatwick, then my train down to Chichester was delayed by over 50 mins. So instead of a bit of a rest at Chi, went straight to Bognor, then straight back up to three bridges, then run across to platform 3 to run back down to Barnham. Short break, then back to Brighton. One main issue is so many train crew were stuck up on the main line, so they ran out of staff to get back down and run the coast trains.
All in all, a complex day. Phone was beeping all the time.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Pretty much every incident that causes more than 1000 delay minutes is reviewed in detail. Recovery in this respect is about recovery of the train service, not recovery of the deceased. Lessons are learned, but I'm afraid that what is really needed is a few spare drivers around. Unfortunately train operators have pared spare cover right back to almost non-existent to save cash, which means that reactionary delays are much worse than they used to be. Which means that NRs penalty payments to train operators for big incidents (and big incidents are almost invariably NRs) are much greater than they used to be. So the TOC saves cash and makes cash. Trebles all round!

The answer might be for NR to fund "contingency cover drivers" ....(just a wind-up) - but there might be a kernal of genius there.....of course , these issues are never straightforward and cannot be planned. Whatever the cost and there is a massive reputation knock onto the TOC's concerned , as well as onto Network Rail. The former rather than the latter of course usually.

Mind you - look at the 6 hour closure of the Dartford crossing last week as a comparitor ,. let alone the Sheppey Bridge incident. ?
 

JB25

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Heard so many different versions of this incident now...

• Suicide

• Someone jumped on the tracks after being chased by the police

• Someone bored of waiting for a train to arrive so decided to walk from Norwood Junction to East Croydon.

Does anyone know the official verdict on this yet? I know who the driver is and I also know the Conductor who was on board. Makes it feel all the more real when you know those involved. :shock:
 

Chrisgr31

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Pretty much every incident that causes more than 1000 delay minutes is reviewed in detail. Recovery in this respect is about recovery of the train service, not recovery of the deceased. Lessons are learned, but I'm afraid that what is really needed is a few spare drivers around. Unfortunately train operators have pared spare cover right back to almost non-existent to save cash, which means that reactionary delays are much worse than they used to be. Which means that NRs penalty payments to train operators for big incidents (and big incidents are almost invariably NRs) are much greater than they used to be. So the TOC saves cash and makes cash. Trebles all round!

Thanks and yes I did realise meant that recovery was referring to the train service, and thats what I was referring to. Sounds typical that the TOCs should par staff to the bone and then benefit when the service goes pear shaped. Must mean I am not the only one hoping for delays!

Ah well at least the recovery from New Cross was quicker.
 
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