Crossrail

[ole man]

How will Crossrail work?

Will it share tracks with the current services on the GWML from the new tunnel being built at Royal Oak?
The new tunnel is on line 6 side will the new crossrail services stay on that side of the railway or use crossovers to get where they are going?

 

[anthony263]

Not too sure if this answers your question. Crossrail trains will use the slow lines I think once crossrail is up and running that any FGW services will use the slow lines between Paddington & Airport jct, however I think there was a proposed semi fast service between London & Oxford which would call at Maidenhead etc.

 

[swt_passenger]

Crossrail will be the primary user of the reliefs, and Airport Junction is being completely rebuilt to provide grade separated junctions from both the relief lines and the fast lines.

The junction where remaining GW services leave the relief lines won't be so complex though, remaining up trains from the reliefs heading for Paddington will have to cross the down line.

A fairly useful drawing on the ORR website here gives some idea of how it all works, it seems the 6 track approach into Paddington is reduced somewhat:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-xrail-appx2_single_line_GW.pdf

Similar diagrams exist for the GE and SE branches:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-xrail-appx2_single_line_GE.pdf

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-crail-appx2_single_line_central_SE.pdf

 

[ole man]

Crossrail will be the primary user of the reliefs, and Airport Junction is being completely rebuilt to provide grade separated junctions from both the relief lines and the fast lines.

The junction where remaining GW services leave the relief lines won't be so complex though, remaining up trains from the reliefs heading for Paddington will have to cross the down line.

A fairly useful drawing on the ORR website here gives some idea of how it all works, it seems the 6 track approach into Paddington is reduced somewhat:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-xrail-appx2_single_line_GW.pdf

Similar diagrams exist for the GE and SE branches:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-xrail-appx2_single_line_GE.pdf

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-crail-appx2_single_line_central_SE.pdf

That makes it easier to understand thanks, if i want any maps im going to ask you.
So i'm presuming that crossrail will be wiring the GWML as far as Reading, then Network Rail doing the rest to Bristol, Cardiff?

 

[swt_passenger]

That makes it easier to understand thanks, if i want any maps im going to ask you.
So i'm presuming that crossrail will be wiring the GWML as far as Reading, then Network Rail doing the rest to Bristol, Cardiff?

Crossrail are wiring to Maidenhead is still the only official line. The recent GW franchise consultation still has Crossrail terminating at Maidenhead, despite all the internet speculation...

 

[ole man]

Who will be in charge of these works? Network Rail or Crossrail?.
And will FGW be getting money from one of the above for any disruption caused by the work?
Ive noticed at Paddington this week lots if Crossrail Hi-viz jackets even though it is a Network Rail station

 

[Nym]

Is there any speculation, other than from me, about running via Northolt onto West Ruslip and electrifying the Chiltern to take some services off MBone? Also via Hangar Ln and Greenford with a few more platforms.

 

[swt_passenger]

Who will be in charge of these works? Network Rail or Crossrail?.
And will FGW be getting money from one of the above for any disruption caused by the work?
Ive noticed at Paddington this week lots if Crossrail Hi-viz jackets even though it is a Network Rail station

Network Rail are responsible for all 'on national network' works. The reason Crossrail personnel are more visible at Paddington is that the LU (H&C) station rebuild is a joint NR/LU/CR project based predominantly on the need to relocate the existing taxi rank, to allow for the Crossrail work in Eastbourne Terrace, (outside the station but alongside Platform 1) so it is being managed by Crossrail. This job is known as the 'Paddington Integrated Project'.

There's a similar overlap between organisations at Farringdon, where an LU station is being almost totally rebuilt by NR, mainly for Thameslink, but the new construction includes facilities such as lift shafts that will be used by Crossrail...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there any speculation, other than from me, about running via Northolt onto West Ruslip and electrifying the Chiltern to take some services off MBone? Also via Hangar Ln and Greenford with a few more platforms.

Running some of the Crossrail service onto Chiltern was analysed to death before the current route was settled on, so you aren't by any means the first to speculate on it.

I suggest that the idea has been overtaken by the more recent idea (in the London & SE RUS) to run Crossrail onto the WCML, possibly because any potential route alongside the Central Line is already earmarked for HS2?

 

[ole man]

Ah i did wonder why part of the road outside Paddington is boarded off and has Crossrail signs on it.
The existing taxi rank will be moved to there, what work is being done on the Existing taxi rank then?, and where will the new Crossrail station entrance be?.
Will the new track from Royal Oak portal go underneath Paddington?

You also state that Crossrail might run onto the WCML where would this junction be OOC then onto WCML near Willesden?

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah i did wonder why part of the road outside Paddington is boarded off and has Crossrail signs on it.
The existing taxi rank will be moved to there, what work is being done on the Existing taxi rank then?, and where will the new Crossrail station entrance be?.
Will the new track from Royal Oak portal go underneath Paddington?

The new permanent taxi rank will be roughly above platforms 11 and 12, with its approach ramp (for taxis) leading up through the new LU station towards Bishops Bridge Rd - that's the newish bridge over the station throat.

The Crossrail station will be built by cut and cover methods underneath Eastbourne Terrace:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/stations/paddington/

The last picture of 9 lower down the page shows the new set up for the taxi rank best.

I don't think much is known about how they'd get to the WCML, but via OOC does seem the likeliest solution

 

[Nym]

You also state that Crossrail might run onto the WCML where would this junction be OOC then onto WCML near Willesden?

I suspect it will be at OOC yes, with OOC Interchange becoming part of a massive interchange for...

Crossrail Great Western
Crossrail WCML / Watford DC
Great Western LDPE?
West London Line / North London Line
Watford DC Lines
West Coast Mainline
High Speed Two

Would suspect that it would proberbly just include XRWC, XRGW and HS2, with Willisden Jcn possibly being left on the DC Lines and WCML Slows.

Kind of like Stratford Domestic and International now...

OOC having both crossrail routes (or just the GW ones, depending on where OOC station ends up) and services that terminate short, only running through the core, and HS2.

Willisden Junction having the WCML and Overground services, and possibly intergrating the XRWC services into the DC and/or Slow platforms (that would be put back in), somewhere for the SN services to call within the OOC station complex would be handy too.

Could proberbly fit all this overground, but putting some underground would mean a lot easyer passenger foot flows. Since it's currently 600m between the proposed OOC platforms and the WCML platform areas.

 

[Minstral25]

Interesting diagrams two points spring to mind

1) Abbey Wood Station has no connection between Crossrail and South-Eastern's network - why? And a weird collection of points after the station (presumably to allow trains to swap round in the sidings)

2) Royal Oak station has four platforms of which two are terminating. How soon will these be out of use as trains get extended to Euston Lines or Heathrow etc - what a lot of money pointlessly spent

 

[Nym]

RE: Point 2, unless you 6 track and convert all inner Chiltern, all WCML MK and all services to Reading to Crossrail you won't fufill the full timetable of potential core services (32tph) as you would need three 2 track routes to take that away from the core lines. And what about engineering posessions etc. Royal Oak isn't a waste at all, it's invaluable.

As for Abbey Wood, I beleive the plan could be to extend to Gravesend or Ebsfleet in the future (Ebsfleet would be a nice one, some new conventional platforms there) and it could be that like with with SN Network and Thameslink, that the SouthEastern Network will be taken up in big swathes by Crossrail services, and this could be up to 16tph, combined with the 12tph from Shenfeild to give the core's 32tph, onwards would realistically be looking at 4tph Reading, 4tph Maidenhead / Slough, 4tph Heathrow Connect, maybe the 4tph Heathrow Express, 4tph Tring, 4tph High Wycome, 4tph Watford Junction, 4tph, oh, I dunno, terminate at Old Oak?

 

[HSTEd]

I still think that running 140mph commuter stock (similar in concept to a 10 coach Cl395, perhaps with a shop and first class carriage) to Bristol or Cardiff via Crossrail would be an interesting idea.

If you are going to have Crossrail reach Ebbsfleet Int. you could integrate it into the existing HS1 domestic timetable (Margate-Cardiff via Crossrail for instance).

 

[DjU]

2) Royal Oak station has four platforms of which two are terminating. How soon will these be out of use as trains get extended to Euston Lines or Heathrow etc - what a lot of money pointlessly spent

There isn't a Royal Oak Crossrail station. That a turn back facilty.

 

[cle]

And isn't it just beyond Westbourne Park?

I think it's short sighted not to build the connections to the SE lines at Abbey Wood for future Crossrail trains heading east.

Integrating Ebbsfleet would be hugely beneficial (Northfleet could close) and help to regenerate the town. A better Bluewater link would be good too for off peak and weekend travel.

I think only Gravesend has been mentioned, but they should try to push it as far east as possible. Strood perhaps, if the Medway bridge and two-track sections would be too hard to do - and even on to Maidstone West!

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, the turnback facility is usually referred to in Crossrail documents as being at Westbourne Park.

If it is decided to extend CR onto the WCML, I guess that would be the obvious place to put the grade separated junction that would be needed to split the services, (especially given the width of the site they've already allocated for the turnback). I dare say the lines going off to the planned Old Oak depot could also be rearranged to suit a WCML connection.

 

[Nym]

They could indeed, They could also land on the WCML at Willisden Junction in the former platform space that has closed, keeping a grade separated connection with the WCML, I'm still into two minds as to if a connection to the NLL / WLL would be benifical or not, I'm thinking linking in the DC Lines would be, from Willisden North, with the Willsden - Euston service being cut to a shuttle between the two? Or sent through Camden Road onwards to St Pancras or Stratford (If we need to free up HS2 space at Euston), with the majority of DC services running onto XR, can't decide if there should be XR platforms at Willisden for the Slows as well as the DCs or not. Suppose that would depend on if SN services will gain platforms in the OOC / Willisden complex, if they do, it would be worth having XR platforms on the slows as well, one massive HS2 interchange with err...

HS2, Crossrail, GWML, WCML, NLL, WLL, SN Services to E Croydon & Clapham Jcn, (hell, extend these to Gatwick!)
If you wanted to be really adventerous you could:
Divert some of the Met line or Chiltern onto it using the Dudden Hill Line and a new viaduct. (Alyesbury Route)
Run via Greenford (with new platforms) and on to High Wycome (Junction and line already there)
Link in with Thameslink, maybe some through services to the North from Crossrail (to connect in with HS2 better, or take some pressure off the Thameslink core for outer services if more ECML services get sent via TL)

So in Nym's Fantasy Land, when XR is running at 32tph Core:

From Paddington:
4tph Reading, 4tph Maidenhead / Slough, 4tph Heathrow, 4tph Princes Risborough, 4tph Aylesbury Vale Parkway, 4tph Watford DC Lines from Willisden, 4tph Tring / Milton Keynes Central, 4tph Bedford via Luton & Dudden Hill Semi Fast.

From Liverpool Street:
12tph Shenfeild, 12tph Abbey Wood, hell, make it 18tph Shenfeild, theres that many extra on peak anyway, off peak you can drop to 24tph core, and loose some of the tph up the Chiltern and Thameslink (2tph each from Chiltern Lines, all of the Thameslink route services)

(I'd like to see that route map!)

 

[Clip]

If you are going to have Crossrail reach Ebbsfleet Int. you could integrate it into the existing HS1 domestic timetable (Margate-Cardiff via Crossrail for instance).

I couldnt think of two worse places to have trains start and terminate..

 

[tbtc]

I still think that running 140mph commuter stock (similar in concept to a 10 coach Cl395, perhaps with a shop and first class carriage) to Bristol or Cardiff via Crossrail would be an interesting idea.

If you are going to have Crossrail reach Ebbsfleet Int. you could integrate it into the existing HS1 domestic timetable (Margate-Cardiff via Crossrail for instance).

Bear in mind that in the tunnels under London it is going to function as a quasi-tube line.

Can you imagine the scrums of passengers between Paddington/ Tottenham Court Road/ Liverpool Street (etc) worrying about not boarding the First Class section?

Longer distance services will use Crossrail in the future (once it is up and running as a "simple"/functional Shenfield/ Abbey Wood - Heathrow/ Maidstone service, nothing confusing, nothing complicated), in the way that the Thameslink core will shortly take services from places like Peterborough. But 140mph 395 equivalents? No chance...

 

[Crispy75]

Interesting diagrams two points spring to mind

1) Abbey Wood Station has no connection between Crossrail and South-Eastern's network - why?

Incompatible electrification

 

[Nym]

Incompatible electrification

So what happens at the Thameslink changeovers, between Liverpool S Parkway and Hunts Cross, Fawkham Link, West London Line, and every other changeover from 750V DC 3rd Rail to 25kC AC OHL?

 

[HSTEd]

Bear in mind that in the tunnels under London it is going to function as a quasi-tube line.

Can you imagine the scrums of passengers between Paddington/ Tottenham Court Road/ Liverpool Street (etc) worrying about not boarding the First Class section?

Longer distance services will use Crossrail in the future (once it is up and running as a "simple"/functional Shenfield/ Abbey Wood - Heathrow/ Maidstone service, nothing confusing, nothing complicated), in the way that the Thameslink core will shortly take services from places like Peterborough. But 140mph 395 equivalents? No chance...

Well if there were 4 trains per hour to Cardiff via Bristol Parkway that would mean that only 12.5% of the trains would have the reduced capacity associated with 2+2 seating and a single first class vehicle which I estimate to reduce the capacity of the line by ~7-8% at most (Assuming no standing on the Cl395 derivative). Which considering these trains would not impinge on the 24tph currently planned for the route would not really effect capacity significantly anyway.

I don't think this massively reduces the capacity of the line and frankly if there is a scrum on the platform that means the platforms have been built with insufficient circulating area.

You could even make the platform edge doors opposite the first class carriage stay closed to prevent people boarding by accident.

EDIT:
It appears Crossrail is being built to allow 12 carriage trains even though it will only use 10 carriage ones in normal service, so perhaps the shop and first class vehicle would be on that end of the train and ten normal second class vehicles would be available for boarding.

 

[Class377/5]

Incompatible electrification

The tender for the Crossrail units states they have to be capable of using DC if in the future it's needed. IE have the unit wired up for DC in the future, bit like how the 375/6's were ordered.

Well if there were 4 trains per hour to Cardiff via Bristol Parkway that would mean that only 12.5% of the trains would have the reduced capacity associated with 2+2 seating and a single first class vehicle which I estimate to reduce the capacity of the line by ~7-8% at most (Assuming no standing on the Cl395 derivative). Which considering these trains would not impinge on the 24tph currently planned for the route would not really effect capacity significantly anyway.

I don't think this massively reduces the capacity of the line and frankly if there is a scrum on the platform that means the platforms have been built with insufficient circulating area.

You could even make the platform edge doors opposite the first class carriage stay closed to prevent people boarding by accident.

EDIT:
It appears Crossrail is being built to allow 12 carriage trains even though it will only use 10 carriage ones in normal service, so perhaps the shop and first class vehicle would be on that end of the train and ten normal second class vehicles would be available for boarding.

Just remember than in the central section trains will be less than 2mins (and that's for the planned 24tph, so any additional services would reduce this further) in the platforms.

Also since well has Crossrail had first class? Whole point to to provide massive capacity so there's going to be no first class on any unit serving the central section. Look to the HS2 link to provide a service that you propose.

Also note that a lot of people using Crossrail won't be familiar with the system and not understand English well so idea of having certain doors not open to provide first class is bad. Add in the fact that these people may wish to get off in the central section means you'll never have the PED's closed when a train is in platform. As for suggesting that its a design fault if you create crowds, well Crossrail is built around the idea of moving lots of people across Central London quickly, all you propose to do is reduce this by decreasing dwell times and adding in services that you suggest people can't fully use. keep it simple and people can deal with it quickly, make it completed and you create slower responses which causes more congestions. Unique idea but not worthwhile pursuing I'm afraid.

 

[Chris125]

It appears Crossrail is being built to allow 12 carriage trains even though it will only use 10 carriage ones in normal service, so perhaps the shop and first class vehicle would be on that end of the train and ten normal second class vehicles would be available for boarding.

Platform tunnels are being built with growth in mind, so that trains can be extended to 12-cars in the future - no shop or first class is planned.

Chris

 

[mister-sparky]

first class sections should be scrapped entirely anyways. so old fashioned and just reminds us that we still live is a class society. i know people disagree. but that's just my 2 cents...

 

[ainsworth74]

first class sections should be scrapped entirely anyways. so old fashioned and just reminds us that we still live is a class society. i know people disagree. but that's just my 2 cents...

Enjoy your rail fares going up even more then...

Also if someone is happy to pay more for a premium product what is it anyone's business if they do so? I also don't quite see how 1st/standard has anything to do with societies class system? Not everyone in first class is rich or upper class similarly not everyone in standard is poor or working class.

 

[mr_jrt]

Discussing this elsewhere I'm extremely disappointed that the Chiltern line isn't getting the Crossrail terminators. The growth of the Chiltern line has been fantastic, and the services are frequently rammed. It's the last diesel suburban radial line left, so Crossrail would be a perfect time to wire it up.

In my vision Crossrail would run out to Newbury and Didcott, all stations to Reading then semi fast to OOC. These mixed in with Reading to London services that run all stations to H&H then semi fast to London, with the Heathrow services running all stations. The second branch would be the Chiltern line out to Oxford (ideally via Thame) and Bicester, all stations to Princes Risborough, then semi-fast to London. These mixed in with Aylesbury to London services running all stations to High Wycombe then semi fast to London. Finally, High Wycombe to London all stations.

...coupled to a CR3 that I envisage as Waterloo-TCR-Euston, with the tunnels extended to surface at Willesden Junction, but branching off at South Hampstead to surface at Neasden Junction. The Met loses north of Moor Park (and the fast lines north of HotH), but Crossrail 3 gets two branches, Milton Keynes via Tring, and Milton Keynes via Aylesbury.

That just leaves Marylebone having to deal with the mainline services via Banbury, and the pathetic services to the Chiltern Metro stations. Thes could either be closed, or the Jubilee line could be given a branch form Neasden, and four tracks mostly restored along the line. The Wembley Park terminators could be diverted here for free capacity, and the Met interchange could be moved to Neasden, extending the express section from HotH. Neasden also is handily close to the Dudding Hill line, so is ripe for major interchange status as part of any future west London metro project.

...that sorts out the North Western segment of the capital's rail services quite nicely methinks

 

[Clip]

Wow - you tell all those people who live on the Aylesbury branch that they are pathetic and not worthy of a decent train to sit on all the way into work. They will love you. In fact I know from experience that these are well used durign the peaks and the thought of putting them onto a jubilee line train is just laughable really.

Though I guess it would free up platforms for all these extra trains you want into marylebone from the rest of the line.

thats if i read that right

 

[Waddon]

A fairly useful drawing on the ORR website here gives some idea of how it all works, it seems the 6 track approach into Paddington is reduced somewhat:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-xrail-appx2_single_line_GW.pdf]

Just looking at the diagram, is that a turntable they are planning to install at North Pole?