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Crossrail via Willesden Junction?

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Sad Sprinter

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I can’t remember if I actually saw this as a real proposal, but was it ever looked at to send Crossrail via WJ between Paddington and Acton Main Line? Trains could reach the Great Western via the Poplar lines, and such a station would provide a ready made interchange there without having to build OOC. As well as linking Heathrow with the WCML. Don’t know what you would have done with HS2 though.
 
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MatthewHutton

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I can’t remember if I actually saw this as a real proposal, but was it ever looked at to send Crossrail via WJ between Paddington and Acton Main Line? Trains could reach the Great Western via the Poplar lines, and such a station would provide a ready made interchange there without having to build OOC. As well as linking Heathrow with the WCML. Don’t know what you would have done with HS2 though.
Adding extra OOC stops on the north/west London lines should be relatively cheap.
 

SynthD

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Yes, though it seems to have ended with the Heathrow tunnel, Heathrow Connect service.

With what has happened since then, it would have to go from Old Oak Common to somewhere on the Lioness line that leaves a sensible remaining service to Euston, and for the Bakerloo. Build a portal on the Willesden Carriage Sidings, with Wembley Central as the first station. Build a Bakerloo terminus on the eastern side of Wembley Central. I don’t see space for a portal by Old Oak Common. Not much space for new housing either, unless some business parks and trading estates are closed.

Would there be space for the HS2 passengers?
 

Railwaysceptic

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Adding extra OOC stops on the north/west London lines should be relatively cheap.
I doubt that very much indeed. Previous debates have concluded building an OOC station on the West London Line would be both mega-expensive and extremely difficult. Transport for London have adopted the West London Orbital Project and have added to it an OOC station on the North London Line which would necessitate 4-tracking the formation in an area where's there's little room to move! Whether this project will go ahead is uncertain.
 

MatthewHutton

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I doubt that very much indeed. Previous debates have concluded building an OOC station on the West London Line would be both mega-expensive and extremely difficult. Transport for London have adopted the West London Orbital Project and have added to it an OOC station on the North London Line which would necessitate 4-tracking the formation in an area where's there's little room to move! Whether this project will go ahead is uncertain.
Why can’t they just stick a platform alongside the existing running lines?
 

MarkyT

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Why can’t they just stick a platform alongside the existing running lines?
With the existing layout, the quantity of freight movements passing through the Acton Wells area makes it unviable to stop passenger trains on the same tracks so close to or even partially through the junctions. Some reconfiguration and expansion in the vicinity is essential to accommodate a new station along with all existing traffic.
 

JonathanH

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I can’t remember if I actually saw this as a real proposal, but was it ever looked at to send Crossrail via WJ between Paddington and Acton Main Line?
That would be an incredibly slow diversion. Clearly the Euston and Paddington lines are close through the Kensal area, but the connecting lines and junctions are all very slow.

There is some discussion about it from 2003 here, but it can't have ever been particularly credible on the Paddington to Ealing route - https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-ar...yor/find-an-answer/willesden-junction-station

Willesden Junction Station​

Does the Mayor support the development of a platform at Willesden Junction Station to enable West Coast Mainline trains to stop at the station and, if so, what is he doing to make this happen?
.

Answer​

Date: Monday 24 November 2003
Option analysis undertaken by the Crossrail Project Team investigated stopping mainline long distance trains at a new interchange at Willesden Junction which would also be served by Crossrail line 1. The conclusion from the analysis was that even with Crossrail there was insufficient justification to stop mainline long-distance mainline services at Willesden Junction. To do so would extend the journey times of through trips by approximately 3 minutes. In addition, given the current pattern of train services there is also insufficient line capacity to enable trains to stop there.

I think the three minutes refers to trains on the WCML, rather than the Crossrail line.
 

cle

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Clearly the GWML is more of a development corridor, especially now. I'm not sure if this is thinking DC lines, or Tring services / slows - the former wouldn't have enough usage (the Jubilee/Met take the volume for many of the same areas) -

Wembley Central itself has densified so I could see a lot of growth there, probably only there although a larger project to Gorbals the Stonebridge (and many lame old office/light industrial units around there) could be transformational.

Harrow & Wealdstone has a great, established Euston service this wouldn't really beat.

Watford as a town has interestingly had a bit of a come-back since the lull of Trewins closing. Population growth there has been huge, a lot of new housing developments, the health campus - and having a top flight football team for a while + the Harry Potter experience has seen a lot more inbound traffic and visitors, much by rail. It's retained a far few HQs with good jobs also. But again, the service to Euston is extremely good, I'm not sure if this would do much for Watford. I think the Met line would actually be more additive and spur more growth around the West/Health campus/football hubs.

I think Crossrail is better placed fighting for incremental growth and frequency (lobby for freight to be night only etc, more loops where possible... take on the slow GWR to Didcot etc) - if doable. Even if just a few more trains out to Hayes. That corridor has far more going on than the DC line stations do.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Clearly the GWML is more of a development corridor, especially now. I'm not sure if this is thinking DC lines, or Tring services / slows - the former wouldn't have enough usage (the Jubilee/Met take the volume for many of the same areas) -

Wembley Central itself has densified so I could see a lot of growth there, probably only there although a larger project to Gorbals the Stonebridge (and many lame old office/light industrial units around there) could be transformational.

Harrow & Wealdstone has a great, established Euston service this wouldn't really beat.

Watford as a town has interestingly had a bit of a come-back since the lull of Trewins closing. Population growth there has been huge, a lot of new housing developments, the health campus - and having a top flight football team for a while + the Harry Potter experience has seen a lot more inbound traffic and visitors, much by rail. It's retained a far few HQs with good jobs also. But again, the service to Euston is extremely good, I'm not sure if this would do much for Watford. I think the Met line would actually be more additive and spur more growth around the West/Health campus/football hubs.

I think Crossrail is better placed fighting for incremental growth and frequency (lobby for freight to be night only etc, more loops where possible... take on the slow GWR to Didcot etc) - if doable. Even if just a few more trains out to Hayes. That corridor has far more going on than the DC line stations do.

I kind of meant what if the entire route went via Willesden before joining the line at Acton again, rather than a branch to Tring.
 

CMS1

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What about an airport-style people mover on stilts between OOC and Willesden Junction (with the mainline platforms reinstated)
 

JonathanH

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I kind of meant what if the entire route went via Willesden before joining the line at Acton again, rather than a branch to Tring.
The curves required on the eastern side seem way too tight for that to ever be feasible using the existing lines without a substantial time penalty. On the western side, a bit of land take would seem to be needed, but the curve in the GWML at Ladbroke Grove seems to go straight up the WCML. Might be a bit difficult to build through a cemetery through.

1770486614551.png
Picture shows area of Willesden Junction with GWML running through the bottom of the map, and Willesden Junction to the north.
 

Sad Sprinter

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The curves required on the eastern side seem way too tight for that to ever be feasible using the existing lines without a substantial time penalty. On the western side, a bit of land take would seem to be needed, but the curve in the GWML at Ladbroke Grove seems to go straight up the WCML. Might be a bit difficult to build through a cemetery through.

View attachment 197626
Picture shows area of Willesden Junction with GWML running through the bottom of the map, and Willesden Junction to the north.

Might work if it was a subterranean station though
 

JonathanH

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Might work if it was a subterranean station though
I'm still not sure Acton Main Line, Willesden Junction, and the Crossrail portal can lie on a reasonable curve, and clearly additional subterranean infrastructure comes with a cost.
 

Uncle Buck

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I'm still not sure Acton Main Line, Willesden Junction, and the Crossrail portal can lie on a reasonable curve, and clearly additional subterranean infrastructure comes with a cost.
Surely the gradient of any tunnel serving Paddington and Willesden Junction would be such that it had to emerge on the Great Western at a point west of Acton Main Line, causing the latter not to be served by Elizabeth Line trains?
 
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Flinn Reed

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I actually think this is a really good idea. Willesden Junction has the potential to be another Stratford/Clapham style hub station, and expanding it seems better value than building a new hub at Old Oak Common nearby. Willesden Junction has several rail routes passing nearby, and would still be well placed to serve new housing at Old Oak.

Firstly, I don't think HS2 needs to stop at Old Oak Common anyway. A better solution would be to just improve connections at Euston to handle the extra passengers - split the Northern Line (increasing capacity on both routes), build Crossrail 2, and integrate Euston Square into Euston. Plus somehow improve the interchange between Euston and St Pancras, giving HS2 passengers direct access to Thameslink. One of the main reasons given for stopping HS2 at Old Oak Common is the connection to Heathrow. But with HS2 freeing up paths into the existing platforms at Euston, could Heathrow Express perhaps divert there? As well as interchange to HS1/HS2/etc, this would give Heathrow Express a more unique purpose to justify its existence alongside the Elizabeth Line.

I also don't see the need to stop GWR services at Old Oak Common. In terms of HS2 connections, the Elizabeth Line would cover local journeys, and for places further west it will often still be quicker or at least easier to use CrossCountry services from Reading/Bristol to Birmingham or beyond than travelling via London. And connecting the Mildmay Line at Old Oak Common is made awkward by having two new stations which don't quite offer direct interchange.

Returning to Willesden Junction, at a minimum they should build new platforms on the semi-fast lines into Euston, allowing services to Tring/Milton Keynes to stop there, maybe other services too. Could even look at upgrades on the Abbey line, including a passing loop, allowing direct trains to Euston. This would improve connections for a lot of journeys, from the WCML to stations towards Richmond/Clapham/Stratford as well as the Bakerloo Line via Paddington - and saving time compared to switching to the Lioness/Bakerloo from further north. This could also address the Southern service to Watford, which provides some useful direct links but is too infrequent. Passengers would instead have several LNR trains per hour from Watford/Harrow to Willesden Junction, to change for frequent Overground services towards Clapham.

With TFL's proposals to create the new West London Orbital overground - which would avoid both Willesden Junction and Old Oak Common, I think the sections could instead be restructured with the Mildmay line to create a simpler network of two lines crossing at Willesden Junction. The Mildmay Line could operate all trains from Stratford to South Acton, then alternating between Richmond and Hounslow. Trains from Clapham Junction would then use the Southern tracks to approach Willesden Junction, serving new platforms parallel with the WCML, then a new curve south of Harlesden connecting to the Dudding Hill line, with trains continuing to Brent Cross West.

Back to the Elizabeth Line, from other comments it seems it would be impractical to use existing tracks to divert via Willesden Junction, but a tunnel could have worked as an alternative. Rather than emerging at Westbourne Park, the tunnel could have continued west to sub-surface platforms at Willesden (perhaps including an extra terminus platform, extending trains from Paddington), with a tunnel portal at the sidings just west of Acton Main Line station. Acton Main Line would have to be closed or relocated in this scenario. The only remaining rail service through this area would then be the Central Line - perhaps new platforms could be built for the Mildmay Line at North Acton, offering interchange to the Central Line, and with a new eastern entrance serving the southern end of the Old Oak Common redevelopments?
 

Kite159

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Didn't someone once suggest when Crossrail was being built one option was to connect it with the WCML so some of the Paddington terminators could run to Tring.
 

swt_passenger

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Didn't someone once suggest when Crossrail was being built one option was to connect it with the WCML so some of the Paddington terminators could run to Tring.
Yes, but still using the current route through Paddington and branching towards the WCML from the OOC area, but it wouldn’t have been anything to do with either Euston or Willesden Junction, and just like the present SN services would have avoidEd the latter station.
 

London Trains

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What about an airport-style people mover on stilts between OOC and Willesden Junction (with the mainline platforms reinstated)
I've suggested very similar before, you could create an enormous interchange by connecting up OOC and an expanded Willesden Junction, with all trains (including Avanti and LNWR) stopping.

In this scenario the Watford Junction to East Croydon service would become obsolete, but extending some LO services down to East Croydon could be looked at, which would provide even more connections to OOC.
 

Transilien

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Didn't someone once suggest when Crossrail was being built one option was to connect it with the WCML so some of the Paddington terminators could run to Tring.
In my opinion, this would lead to problems on Crossrail that are seen currently on Thameslink ever since the canal tunnels opened. It is disastrous for performance to have 3 mainlines interconnected to each other.
 

The Planner

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In my opinion, this would lead to problems on Crossrail that are seen currently on Thameslink ever since the canal tunnels opened. It is disastrous for performance to have 3 mainlines interconnected to each other.
It would have also destroyed the slow line capacity on the WCML.
 

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Paging @ChiefPlanner who worked on Crossrail back in the early 90s
Long and complicated issue. Original Crossrail 1 had a split of services 12 Thames Valley and 12 towards Aylesbury. (some of the latter turning at Harrow) - of course it was all scrapped due to a failure of the 4 MP's , on the bill to support it.

The Aylesbury leg had very high costs - in repurposing the Dudding Hill line (accesssed by a chord to Acton Canal which was a very tight fit , and a further issue in dropping down onto the "Met" corridor - the latter having very a tight formation Harrow to Rickmansworth as the 1960 era 4 tracking was squeezed in , so AC / DC seperation for residual LT trains was challenging. By the way - Rickmansworth station would have been pushed further south , kyboshing the LT stabling sidings. Even the bucolic Chesham branch had local countryside supporter issues on these nasty gantries possibly being installed. All horribly difficult (and of course disruptive)

Amending the service specifications to give 10 a peak hours on the "Met / Chiltern" gave more Thames Valley options - but still challenging Remember the Met main would have been left with "just" Uxbridge and Watford Met only - told to assume no Croxley link as "not funded"

When it looked desperate with the bill being challenged - the Crossrail Team looked at a renegade plan to access the present LNW slows by a short tunnel under Kensal Green cemetary (deep enough to leave our Victorian accestors in a well deserted peace) , demolish the then largely underused Willesden TMD , and run Crossrail to Tring and Milton Keynes.

This was timetabled and crunched through demand modelling - some of the files of work are probably still in one of my garden sheds.

We also looked at (in an attempt to make the project more useful) , to link into the LT&S sparingly - again good work done but the critical need to grade seperate the flat junction was not possible as considerable demolition of new housing was required in the immediate area.

So I got my redundancy papers , but thankfully was saved by going to what was then called North London Railways ! (not an easy job I assure you - but very enjoyable)
 

Recessio

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We also looked at (in an attempt to make the project more useful) , to link into the LT&S sparingly - again good work done but the critical need to grade seperate the flat junction was not possible as considerable demolition of new housing was required in the immediate area.
I see in some of the Hansard reports about the 1991 bill that the-then Tower Hamlets London Borough council is blamed by Stephen Norris for the demise of the Bill - was the council's disapproval in relation to these demolitions?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Tower Hamlets generally was very anti-Crossrail , I guess the got nothing out of the project !
 

Recessio

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Tower Hamlets generally was very anti-Crossrail , I guess the got nothing out of the project !
Was the proposed route out towards Shenfield different to the one we eventually got then? I think Tower Hamlets have done pretty well out of the final Elizabeth line route.
 

cle

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Tower Hamlets generally was very anti-Crossrail , I guess the got nothing out of the project !
Whitechapel has done incredibly well! It gets every service, direct Heathrow access, a tube line to the West End in seconds... and has become an even bigger hub. I can't see that anyone else did better? Maybe Acton/Ealing.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Was the proposed route out towards Shenfield different to the one we eventually got then? I think Tower Hamlets have done pretty well out of the final Elizabeth line route.

Yes - originally planned to go undergound at Allen Gardens in Tower Hamlets - since construction was pushed back eastwards .
 

Recessio

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Yes - originally planned to go undergound at Allen Gardens in Tower Hamlets - since construction was pushed back eastwards .
Ah, does that mean it wouldn't have called at Whitechapel then? If that's the case, I can see why Tower Hamlets thought it wasn't much of a win for them then...
 
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