Crossrail Trains

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

Given that a large percentage of the new Crossrail route is brand new railway, I'm surprised that no one has considered the possibility of using double deck trains. The entire route has no tunnels (apart from the obvious) and it surely wouldn't have cost much more money to construct a Berne gauge sized tunnel?

I appreciate that bridges and platforms would have to be adjusted but I think this would have been Network Rail's best chance (other than HS2) to develop a Berne gauge railway with all the benefits in capacity that it would bring. I appreciate that some might argue that double deck trains would be non standard in terms of future cascades but the same could be said of class 378's which will probably spend their entire working lives on their existing routes.

On the subject of class 378's, hopefully the government will sense and order a similar design for Crossrail.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers, Richmond Commuter

 

[MCR247]

Large percentage? London - Shenfield and London - Maidenhead/Heathrow all ready exist...

The core is the main new bit, and I doubt you could get a double deck train through the Heathrow tunnels...

 

[YorkshireBear]

double deck trains on commuter services, not entirely sure if that would seriously increase dwell times at stations?

 

[swt_passenger]

Large percentage? London - Shenfield and London - Maidenhead/Heathrow all ready exist...

The core is the main new bit, and I doubt you could get a double deck train through the Heathrow tunnels...

Or the Connaught tunnels under the Royal Docks...

 

[142094]

You'd be buggered if you needed to move the stock to a different route.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Large percentage? London - Shenfield and London - Maidenhead/Heathrow all ready exist...

The core is the main new bit, and I doubt you could get a double deck train through the Heathrow tunnels...

Yes I know much of the route already exists but the core still represents a large percentage of the line. However I forgot about the Heathrow tunnels!
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Or the Connaught tunnels under the Royal Docks...

Oh god I'd forgot about those too! Ah well nevermind!

 

[swt_passenger]

Funnily enough, I found the DfT answered an FOI request about this, and they reckon the core tunnels would actually allow gauge of UIC GB # - which covers the RER double deck stock:

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/foi/dft-f0007346/dft-f0007346.pdf

So that does seem to put the problem firmly outside the new build section...

[# Berne Gauge is a historic term that no longer applies to new work - or most of mainland Europe.]

 

[RichmondCommu]

double deck trains on commuter services, not entirely sure if that would seriously increase dwell times at stations?

Having spent a few years living in Sydney, I can honestly say that was never a problem and the extra capacity meant that even in rush hour (and Sydney is a big city) you stood a better chance of getting a seat than I did when I lived in Melbourne.
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You'd be buggered if you needed to move the stock to a different route.

Yes but as I stated earlier Crossrail trains (like the tube) are unlikely to be cascaded and will run on the route until they are life expired, principaly because I suspect they will be very similar to the class 378's. At least I hope so!

 

[jopsuk]

If it wasn't for the use of existing lines in parts, I wonder if an extreme gauge would have been possible- I have visions (someone help me!) of Channel Tunnel-shuttle sized "metro" stock with "double decker" platforms- ie load on both levels. Would require platform edge doors, almost flush platforms etc. I'd still give them internal stairs, and maybe even make quieter stations "lower deck only" with SDO-like systems to keep the upstairs safe.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Funnily enough, I found the DfT answered an FOI request about this, and they reckon the core tunnels would actually allow gauge of UIC GB # - which covers the RER double deck stock:

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/foi/dft-f0007346/dft-f0007346.pdf

So that does seem to put the problem firmly outside the new build section...

[# Berne Gauge is a historic term that no longer applies to new work - or most of mainland Europe.]

Thats very interesting so thanks for this. However, sadly as others have pointed out the Connaught and (possibly) Heathrow tunnels won't be big enough to run double deck trains.
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If it wasn't for the use of existing lines in parts, I wonder if an extreme gauge would have been possible- I have visions (someone help me!) of Channel Tunnel-shuttle sized "metro" stock with "double decker" platforms- ie load on both levels. Would require platform edge doors, almost flush platforms etc. I'd still give them internal stairs, and maybe even make quieter stations "lower deck only" with SDO-like systems to keep the upstairs safe.

To be honest, having used double deck trains when I lived in Sydney in my early 20's there is no real impact on dwell times (and their "flip" seats were the work of a genius!).

 

[MCR247]

You'd be buggered if you needed to move the stock to a different route.

Crossrail & Thameslink stock will effectively be like tube stock, used on that line until they are life expired

 

[jon0844]

This is one reason why I hope the trains that are built are good. Modern trains have very cheap plastic fittings inside, and may not last anywhere near as long as the train does itself.

Everyone will be happy (even jealous) when the new trains arrive - but 10-15 years down the line, I am sure they'll be in bits.

 

[Class377/5]

Crossrail & Thameslink stock will effectively be like tube stock, used on that line until they are life expired

Not to mention the fact they will have automatic signalling parts that aren't as likely to be wide spread across the network either and you realise this stock is going no-where until its retired.

 

[starrymarkb]

Transillen (who operate the suburban network around Paris) are moving away from Double Deckers, the newes stock is widebodied single deck with big doors. (Think les 376/378)

 

[142094]

Crossrail & Thameslink stock will effectively be like tube stock, used on that line until they are life expired

Always good to have some sort of ability to move it around just in case something happens (however unlikely, although you can never predict what will happen in 30 years time).

 

[MCR247]

No, but where else is going to need 12 car stock constantly? It will be treated like a tube, how else can you do it? DD trains won't affect this

 

[Nym]

According to ARUP in the next 20 years, Transpennine North...

 

[142094]

No, but where else is going to need 12 car stock constantly? It will be treated like a tube, how else can you do it? DD trains won't affect this

You can't do much with historic stock due to the inherent nature of the design way back then - so obviously Tube and Glasgow Subway rolling stock will always be a special case unless someone decides to throw a qhole lot of money down the drain.

However I don't see any reason why any new stock in the UK should be constructed where it can only remain on one route. Past experience has shown that things change fast and the railway has to adapt quickly.

 

[tbtc]

I don't see any reason why any new stock in the UK should be constructed where it can only remain on one route. Past experience has shown that things change fast and the railway has to adapt quickly.

The 460s are a great example of that.

We are struggling for capacity in many areas, we are robbing Peter to pay Paul in terms of cascading units around (e.g. Lancashire having to take old 317s from Greater Anglia in a couple of years), yet we have dozens of functional EMU coaches sat around...

(partly because they were designed to meet one specific role - Gatwick Express - and partly because they were designed to work on only one type of electrification - Third Rail)

 

[Nym]

And merseyrail can't take 8 car units IIRC, although they would be nice to run a 'Liverpool South Parkway for being 1 mile away from the actual airport' services...