Crossrail to Thamesmead

[VT 390]

To give Thamesmead a rail service Crossrail should provide the services but from the north.
This would be possible as the Overground extension to Barking Riverside has been proposed to go through a tunnel to Thamesmead and as the overground would provide just 4tph here it would not be worth the cost, but if Crossrail were to also use the tunnel then it would give Thamesmead direct services to central London. The route could use all existing lines from Stratford by leaving the Crossrail line to Shenfield at Forest Gate Junction stop at Woodgrange Park then use the same platforms at the Overground at Barking then follow the Overground extension to Thamesmead.
If this service ran about every 15 minutes then combined with the Overground a service every 7-8 minutes would run from Thamesmead to Barking.
If this frequency would affect Shenfield or Abbey Wood services then it should be possible to run these services along the slow lines to Liverpool Street (high level), as Shenfield services would be diverted to the Crossrail core, this would still give Thamesmead a direct service to central London.

 

[Esker-pades]

Questions/Observations:
1: Why from the north? If direct services to Central London is what you want, an extension from Abbey Wood should suffice.
2: Where are you getting the additional capacity from? The proposed timetable for Crossrail is already stuffed. Without sacrificing frequencies on either the Abbey Wood or Shenfield branches, there is simply not the space in the timetable. The Shenfield Metro is already rammed at peak times. I think taking any trains away from Canary Wharf is a silly idea.
3: Platform capacity at Liverpool Street starts to become a problem. With frequencies on the Great Eastern Main, West Anglia Main and Lea Valley Lines due to increase, the platforms released by Crossrail will quickly become occupied again.
4: Weaving 4tph through the off-peak 10tph service will be tough if one wants to have an even frequency. It will be very tough to do it through the 16tph peak service.

 

[adrock1976]

Questions/Observations:
1: Why from the north? If direct services to Central London is what you want, an extension from Abbey Wood should suffice.
2: Where are you getting the additional capacity from? The proposed timetable for Crossrail is already stuffed. Without sacrificing frequencies on either the Abbey Wood or Shenfield branches, there is simply not the space in the timetable. The Shenfield Metro is already rammed at peak times. I think taking any trains away from Canary Wharf is a silly idea.
3: Platform capacity at Liverpool Street starts to become a problem. With frequencies on the Great Eastern Main, West Anglia Main and Lea Valley Lines due to increase, the platforms released by Crossrail will quickly become occupied again.
4: Weaving 4tph through the off-peak 10tph service will be tough if one wants to have an even frequency. It will be very tough to do it through the 16tph peak service.

Regarding the 16tph peak service, how does that fit in?

When I was at primary school many years ago, 60 divided by 16 does not go as a whole number.

 

[Esker-pades]

Regarding the 16tph peak service, how does that fit in?

When I was at primary school many years ago, 60 divided by 16 does not go as a whole number.

Firstly, CrossRail operated to the half-minute (1 train every 2.5 minutes at the peak). Secondly, trains won't necessarily be at even frequencies.

 

[swt_passenger]

Any released platform capacity at Liverpool St is already earmarked for additional GEML services.

 

[Bald Rick]

Small problem.

The tunnel under the river from Barking Riverside has never been more than a line on a map. That much is clear from the Planning Inspector’s report for the Order made under the Transport and Works Act. There was an objection to the draft order on the basis that it didn’t allow for a future tunnel (from a particularly meddlesome individual, who apparently doesn’t live anywhere near the line) and TfL couldn’t have been clearer - it’s not going to happen any time soon.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

To give Thamesmead a rail service Crossrail should provide the services but from the north.
This would be possible as the Overground extension to Barking Riverside has been proposed to go through a tunnel to Thamesmead and as the overground would provide just 4tph here it would not be worth the cost, but if Crossrail were to also use the tunnel then it would give Thamesmead direct services to central London. The route could use all existing lines from Stratford by leaving the Crossrail line to Shenfield at Forest Gate Junction stop at Woodgrange Park then use the same platforms at the Overground at Barking then follow the Overground extension to Thamesmead.
If this service ran about every 15 minutes then combined with the Overground a service every 7-8 minutes would run from Thamesmead to Barking.
If this frequency would affect Shenfield or Abbey Wood services then it should be possible to run these services along the slow lines to Liverpool Street (high level), as Shenfield services would be diverted to the Crossrail core, this would still give Thamesmead a direct service to central London.

Very easy one this - make the stations at Ripple Lane, Barking Riverside and Thamesmead suitable for 12 coaches. That way c2c could go down there at peak time - surely the best solution!

 

[Esker-pades]

Very easy one this - make the stations at Ripple Lane, Barking Riverside and Thamesmead suitable for 12 coaches. That way c2c could go down there at peak time - surely the best solution!

c2c doesn't have the capacity in the peak hours to do this. There's already a train every 3 minutes out of Fenchurch Street.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

c2c doesn't have the capacity in the peak hours to do this. There's already a train every 3 minutes out of Fenchurch Street.

In future I strongly suspect we can expect a slightly intensified frequency out of Fenchurch - no doubt that buzz thing of the minute ‘Digital Railway’ could push it up to 24tph.

 

[Busaholic]

Questions/Observations:
1: Why from the north? If direct services to Central London is what you want, an extension from Abbey Wood should suffice.
2: Where are you getting the additional capacity from? The proposed timetable for Crossrail is already stuffed. Without sacrificing frequencies on either the Abbey Wood or Shenfield branches, there is simply not the space in the timetable. The Shenfield Metro is already rammed at peak times. I think taking any trains away from Canary Wharf is a silly idea.
3: Platform capacity at Liverpool Street starts to become a problem. With frequencies on the Great Eastern Main, West Anglia Main and Lea Valley Lines due to increase, the platforms released by Crossrail will quickly become occupied again.
4: Weaving 4tph through the off-peak 10tph service will be tough if one wants to have an even frequency. It will be very tough to do it through the 16tph peak service.

Absolutely: your answer no. 1 is all that's needed, though whether it would negatively impact on further Crossrail expansion eastwards I don't know.

 

[Esker-pades]

In future I strongly suspect we can expect a slightly intensified frequency out of Fenchurch - no doubt that buzz thing of the minute ‘Digital Railway’ could push it up to 24tph.

Surely any additional capacity should be pushed through to Basildon, Southend, Leigh-on-Sea, Shoreburyness, Rainham etc. which already suffer from overcrowding?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Surely any additional capacity should be pushed through to Basildon, Southend, Leigh-on-Sea, Shoreburyness, Rainham etc. which already suffer from overcrowding?

With a plethora of new stock all up to 12 coaches, that would ease some pressure. Another option is to ‘nick’ 2 paths off the Purfleet line and divert 2 London Overground trains down there to spread the loads.

Finally, there’s always the option to build a flyover east of Upminster and operate a Romford - Upminster - Grays tram-style system with more frequent than current trains so people can connect into Crossrail or C2C; thus releasing 4 paths.

 

[Esker-pades]

With a plethora of new stock all up to 12 coaches, that would ease some pressure. Another option is to ‘nick’ 2 paths off the Purfleet line and divert 2 London Overground trains down there to spread the loads.

Finally, there’s always the option to build a flyover east of Upminster and operate a Romford - Upminster - Grays tram-style system with more frequent than current trains so people can connect into Crossrail or C2C; thus releasing 4 paths.

Cutting the direct rail link to Chafford Hundred Lakeside (useage 2.7m and rising) is silly. Really not worth it for a tunnel link to Thamesmead.
What's wrong with an LO link from Barking Riverside? What's wrong with extending Crossrail from Abbey Wood? Those would give better increases in capacity as compared to trying to weave 4tph through very congested networks.

 

[big all]

Regarding the 16tph peak service, how does that fit in?

When I was at primary school many years ago, 60 divided by 16 does not go as a whole number.

a minuite is 60 seconds an hour is 60 mins = 3600 seconds divided by 16 give you a train on average every 225 seconds or every 3.69 mins average
there is a maximum capacity a line can take would suggest if that was 2mins headway then 3.5 average would be a sensible working maximum to allow mostly running on clear or double yellows allowing full speed running rather than reduced capacity signal to signal or section to section for automatic

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Cutting the direct rail link to Chafford Hundred Lakeside (useage 2.7m and rising) is silly. Really not worth it for a tunnel link to Thamesmead.
What's wrong with an LO link from Barking Riverside? What's wrong with extending Crossrail from Abbey Wood? Those would give better increases in capacity as compared to trying to weave 4tph through very congested networks.

Extending Crossrail back round from Abbey Wood to Thamesmead is daft; and as much as I think the Barking Riverside service should be getting taken down to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood, it isn’t something that would have a good business case with a 12-15 minutely 4 car unit that will add a huge amount of people onto already congested c2c trains at Barking.

Perhaps more pressing than any of this is simply to extend Crossrail to Gravesend (not Ebbsfleet!).

 

[Esker-pades]

Extending Crossrail back round from Abbey Wood to Thamesmead is daft; and as much as I think the Barking Riverside service should be getting taken down to Thamesmead and Abbey Wood, it isn’t something that would have a good business case with a 12-15 minutely 4 car unit that will add a huge amount of people onto already congested c2c trains at Barking.

Perhaps more pressing than any of this is simply to extend Crossrail to Gravesend (not Ebbsfleet!).

It's more of a 90 degree turn if one goes through the east side of the South Mere lake and ends in the eastern end of Thamesmead.