Crossrail - Through Running confirmed for November

[Thirteen]

I wonder if we'll see Bond Street open next month? I know they've said before November 6th but that's quite vague. My guess is Monday 30th October.

 

[Acton1991]

Still disappointing at the 7 minute dwell outside of Paddington. Seems like a bit of a step backwards with customers on the train wondering what is going on

 

[Horizon22]

Still disappointing at the 7 minute dwell outside of Paddington. Seems like a bit of a step backwards with customers on the train wondering what is going on

Temporary until May 2023. Needs to marry up with a major timetable change and the full 24tph and it won't be arranged for the December one. I'm sure they'll be mitigations for passengers; Reading trains often arrive early waiting a platform into Paddington already and 7 minutes is very much a maximum.

It's a bit of a bodged timetable, but its still better than currently assuming that through running doesn't turn into a GTR-2018-style fiasco; that was mainly due to driver route knowledge, which isn't an issue here though.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I just arrived at my Heathrow hotel ten minutes ago, after travelling from Liverpool Street. I must say I still won’t be taking the Elizabeth line as a through service to the airport for as long as the Heathrow Express is running.

After an absolutely knackering day it was a huge pleasure to change from the Elizabeth line onto the Express, the fact I was at my hotel while the 345 I would have taken was only just leaving Hayes emphasises why the convenience of the fast, easy and frequent Express to Terminal 5 outweighs the convenience of not having to change at Paddington.

Of course, those coming from the Shenfield branch - including Stratford - will have to change regardless, although without stairs I appreciate if they stay with TfL.

 

[Horizon22]

I just arrived at my Heathrow hotel ten minutes ago, after travelling from Liverpool Street. I must say I still won’t be taking the Elizabeth line as a through service to the airport for as long as the Heathrow Express is running.

After an absolutely knackering day it was a huge pleasure to change from the Elizabeth line onto the Express, the fact I was at my hotel while the 345 I would have taken was only just leaving Hayes emphasises why the convenience of the fast, easy and frequent Express to Terminal 5 outweighs the convenience of not having to change at Paddington.

Of course, those coming from the Shenfield branch - including Stratford - will have to change regardless, although without stairs I appreciate if they stay with TfL.

So you've save about 10 minutes for how much extra cost?

You've also said the benefit is speed, and it was a "pleasure to change" even though in the through service the extra time of changing will probably mean you'd get there at the same time.

So none of the benefit, all of the cost. There will be no "outweighing convenience" in the next stage, so your post is a little contradictory.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So you've save about 10 minutes for how much extra cost?

You've also said the benefit is speed, and it was a "pleasure to change" even though in the through service the extra time of changing will probably mean you'd get there at the same time.

So none of the benefit, all of the cost. There will be no "outweighing convenience" in the next stage, so your post is a little contradictory.

I get a lot from the train being non-stop as well. It’s very tedious for me to stop at Acton and Hanwell and all and sundries. Just personal preference, I’m sure.

 

[43096]

I get a lot from the train being non-stop as well. It’s very tedious for me to stop at Acton and Hanwell and all and sundries. Just personal preference, I’m sure.

Yes, but that is now with no through running, so you had to go upstairs regardless.

In the new world, let's say you get 1948 EL from Liverpool Street to Paddington, arriving 2000. You then have a choice of:
- Staying on the train you're on and get to Heathrow T2/3 at 2034
- Or going upstairs at Padd and getting the 2010 HEx, arriving T2/3 at 2025.

From what you're saying you'd get off a train going where you want to go and paying a higher fare for another train after making work for yourself by going upstairs. So you end up having more risk in your journey and paying more - for 9 minutes potential benefit. I suspect the vast majority of people would just stay on the EL service!

 

[Horizon22]

I get a lot from the train being non-stop as well. It’s very tedious for me to stop at Acton and Hanwell and all and sundries. Just personal preference, I’m sure.

Sure, but I think with through running from somewhere like Liverpool Street and taking into account the time taken for changing and let's say an average of a 7.5 minute wait for Heathrow Express, the time penalty is going to be very small even if it may seem it by not-stopping anywhere. Not to mention the cost of Heathrow Express and the (potentially mild) inconvenience of that change with luggage, overall it doesn't seem sensible to me.

 

[ijmad]

Assuming we start the clock when you board the train at Liverpool Street and stop it when you step off at Heathrow T2/3:

Liverpool Street to Heathrow T2/3 via XR = 40 minutes

Liverpool Street to Heathrow T2/3 via HX = 11 minutes Liverpool St to Paddington, 10 minute change at Paddington (reasonable with luggage), average 7.5 minute wait for HX, 15 minute journey from Paddington to Heathrow. That's just over 40 minutes.

So it's not actually quicker to change for HX, unless you're fast at changing (which is an ask with bulky luggage) or lucky with the HX timings.

Or perhaps if you want to go to T5 and the next Elizabeth Line service there is some time away, but that's still a high cost vs just changing to the HX for T5 at T2/3 for free.

 

[miklcct]

Assuming we start the clock when you board the train at Liverpool Street and stop it when you step off at Heathrow T2/3:

Liverpool Street to Heathrow T2/3 via XR = 40 minutes

Liverpool Street to Heathrow T2/3 via HX = 11 minutes Liverpool St to Paddington, 10 minute change at Paddington (reasonable with luggage), average 7.5 minute wait for HX, 15 minute journey from Paddington to Heathrow. That's just over 40 minutes.

So it's not actually quicker to change for HX, unless you're fast at changing (which is an ask with bulky luggage) or lucky with the HX timings.

Or perhaps if you want to go to T5 and the next Elizabeth Line service there is some time away, but that's still a high cost vs just changing to the HX for T5 at T2/3 for free.

This calculation assumes that the first XR train at Liverpool Street is a Heathrow service, which may not be the case.

If the next train to Heathrow is some time away, it may well be better to get to Paddington first and wait for an HX.

 

[greatkingrat]

The actual timings from Paddington to Heathrow Central will be (repeated every 15 minutes)
XR - dep xx02, arr xx30
HX - dep xx10, arr xx25

So you would have to make the change in less than 8 minutes which is possible, but hardly seems worth the effort (and cost)

 

[Horizon22]

The actual timings from Paddington to Heathrow Central will be (repeated every 15 minutes)
XR - dep xx02, arr xx30
HX - dep xx10, arr xx25

So you would have to make the change in less than 8 minutes which is possible, but hardly seems worth the effort (and cost)

Certainly possible if you are fit and healthy and perhaps without luggage; I've made connections in 4-5 minutes, but it's a very brisk walk.

 

[matt_world2004]

I just arrived at my Heathrow hotel ten minutes ago, after travelling from Liverpool Street. I must say I still won’t be taking the Elizabeth line as a through service to the airport for as long as the Heathrow Express is running.

After an absolutely knackering day it was a huge pleasure to change from the Elizabeth line onto the Express, the fact I was at my hotel while the 345 I would have taken was only just leaving Hayes emphasises why the convenience of the fast, easy and frequent Express to Terminal 5 outweighs the convenience of not having to change at Paddington.

Of course, those coming from the Shenfield branch - including Stratford - will have to change regardless, although without stairs I appreciate if they stay with TfL.

From Liverpool Street when through running starts Elizabeth line will almost certainly be quicker

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2022 ==

This calculation assumes that the first XR train at Liverpool Street is a Heathrow service, which may not be the case.

If the next train to Heathrow is some time away, it may well be better to get to Paddington first and wait for an HX.

Likewise you could get to paddington and wait 15 mins for a hex. Or you could wait 15 mins for a same platform interchange at paddington crossrail. . in most circumstances a Liverpool Street service it would be quicker waiting for the el

 

[CapitalStar378]

This calculation assumes that the first XR train at Liverpool Street is a Heathrow service, which may not be the case.

If the next train to Heathrow is some time away, it may well be better to get to Paddington first and wait for an HX.

I think most people will be concerned with cost over a 9 minute time difference. A non advance single on HX is £25 compared to £10-£12 for EL.

There are 'from £5.50' advance tickets on HX but I'm not sure how many are available and how long in advance they need to purchased. Seems to be an £18 fare available for mid-October so you'd need to be well organised to get any discount.

 

[Failed Unit]

I am looking forward to it never using HEX again. It will be train an error to find the best combination for my journey.

At the moment it is HeX - Circle - Kings Cross (onwards to WGC)

I often think I would be better on the Piccadilly line, as the HeX gets you into Paddington well, but then it is a lottery afterwards.

Now I have choices, Change at Farringdon (when the service runs) or Moorgate. Will it be quicker? Maybe. But will it be nicer, certainly paying the HeX premium to stand is an insult. However with that last point in mind I really think the route will soon be chronically overcrowded to the extent that people are unable to board (like the risk of using the Piccadilly line) and it isn't frequent enough just to take the next train.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this thread is for discussion of Crossrail through running from November. If anyone wants to discuss anything else then please start a new thread. I have moved some posts speculating about the future of HEX to this thread:

Will Heathrow Express survive once Crossrail is running in full?

Moderator note - split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crossrail-through-running-confirmed-for-november.236191/ I am looking forward to it never using HEX again. Last time I used it (going back a few years now) I paid for a HEX only ticket, only to find I’d just missed it and was...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[TheDon88]

It looks like Bond Street will open on Monday 24th October 2022. This date was reported by BBC London in their bulletins during BBC Breakfast this morning, and on the London Evening Standard's website. A link to the Evening Standard article is given below - subscription required to view full article, but it starts:

The Elizabeth line station at Bond Street is set to open on October 24, it was announced on Wednesday.

Elizabeth Line’s Bond Street Station gets opening date

The Elizabeth line station at Bond Street is set to open on October 24, it was announced on Wednesday.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

24th October opening for Bond Street is now on a BBC article

Elizabeth line: Bond Street station gets opening date

It is the final central London station to open on the new line.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Thirteen]

Annoyingly, the Central Section is closed on Saturday 29th due to engineering works so will have to wait until the week after to go visit it.

 

[Horizon22]

Annoyingly, the Central Section is closed on Saturday 29th due to engineering works so will have to wait until the week after to go visit it.

Which will be the first day of through running if you go on Sunday!

 

[mic505]

Temporary until May 2023. Needs to marry up with a major timetable change and the full 24tph and it won't be arranged for the December one. I'm sure they'll be mitigations for passengers; Reading trains often arrive early waiting a platform into Paddington already and 7 minutes is very much a maximum.

It's a bit of a bodged timetable, but its still better than currently assuming that through running doesn't turn into a GTR-2018-style fiasco; that was mainly due to driver route knowledge, which isn't an issue here though.

Auto-reversal west of Paddington would be eliminated from 2026, when Old Oak Common Station (HS2) is built, so all Shenfield and/or a few Abbey Wood trains would terminate and reverse there.

 

[Horizon22]

Auto-reversal west of Paddington would be eliminated from 2026, when Old Oak Common Station (HS2) is built, so all Shenfield and/or a few Abbey Wood trains would terminate and reverse there.

Sure, although not relevant to the timetable now or immediately coming up. It would theoretically be 12tph terminating with space for 24tph Paddington - Old Oak but that’s for another day.

As it stands, auto-reverse isn’t reliable enough to be ready for November.

 

[Snow1964]

Sure, although not relevant to the timetable now or immediately coming up. It would theoretically be 12tph terminating with space for 24tph Paddington - Old Oak but that’s for another day.

As it stands, auto-reverse isn’t reliable enough to be ready for November.

Per Elizabeth line committee Board papers (page 22)

3.7 Preparation for ELR300 is also well underway, with plans for a rollout over the Christmas 2022 period. This update is intended to deliver auto-reverse functionality, critical to the final 24 tph configuration of the railway. However, there will be no further changes to the Elizabeth line timetable until May 2023. This is due to the proximity any December 2022 change would have had to the 6 November 2022, 5b minus-linked, timetable change.

ELR300 is a software version

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/g663/Public%20reports%20pack%20Thursday%2029-Sep-2022%2010.00%20Elizabeth%20Line%20Committee.pdf?T=10

 

[ijmad]

ELR300 is 'intended to deliver auto-reverse functionality' but whether it actually delivers it very much remains to be seen given it was intended to work in ELR1xx and ELR2xx releases and didn't!

 

[Snow1964]

ELR300 is 'intended to deliver auto-reverse functionality' but whether it actually delivers it very much remains to be seen given it was intended to work in ELR1xx and ELR2xx releases and didn't!

per the Elizabeth line committee P4/6 (page 33)

Autoreverse – While progress has been made and an integrated programme has been drafted, construction timescales for fence and closed circuit TV (CCTV) have not yet been verified. The assurance work stream needs to be developed as soon as possible and roles and responsibilities clarified now that CRL will be responsible for this activity

The feasibility studies undertaken by the proposed contractors were issued for the civil, fencing and signage scope on 12 August 2022. Confirmation of the access to undertake the works is critical. Assurance roles and responsibilities have been confirmed (5 August 2022) with the integrated assurance plan issued on 19 August 2022.

What is all this about, fencing and signs being specified as recently as August 2022. Presumably the auto reverse software cannot read signs fixed on fences so why does it need extra signs and fences that weren’t required in July. Is there suddenly a problem with stray pedestrians in the reversal area?

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/g663/Public%20reports%20pack%20Thursday%2029-Sep-2022%2010.00%20Elizabeth%20Line%20Committee.pdf?T=10

 

[stuu]

per the Elizabeth line committee P4/6 (page 33)



What is all this about, fencing and signs being specified as recently as August 2022. Presumably the auto reverse software cannot read signs fixed on fences so why does it need extra signs and fences that weren’t required in July. Is there suddenly a problem with stray pedestrians in the reversal area?

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/g663/Public%20reports%20pack%20Thursday%2029-Sep-2022%2010.00%20Elizabeth%20Line%20Committee.pdf?T=10

Do they plan on not clearing the trains at Paddington? If so it could be in case people are carried over and pull the emergency door release or something

 

[Horizon22]

Do they plan on not clearing the trains at Paddington? If so it could be in case people are carried over and pull the emergency door release or something

That will remain the plan, although people carried over has happened. There does seem to be some (somewhat unfounded) paranoia with tresspassers at Westbourne Park with the driver out of the cab, but not sure where it comes from.

 

[Taunton]

There does seem to be some (somewhat unfounded) paranoia with trespassers at Westbourne Park with the driver out of the cab, but not sure where it comes from.

We've had trains with nobody in the cab on the DLR for the last 35 years, a complete network of open stations and trains, and it has never been seen as a problem. It also, of course, has auto-reverse as well, but that presumably falls into a "not invented here" category for Crossrail.

I really wouldn't be surprised if, given the note above about extending to Old Oak anyway in four years' time, that the whole auto-reverse boondoggle is not given up.

 

[mrmartin]

Any update on 4G on Elizabeth line? I think it was meant to be done by the end of the year, which is fast approaching!

 

[43066]

We've had trains with nobody in the cab on the DLR for the last 35 years, a complete network of open stations and trains, and it has never been seen as a problem.

What’s considered safe/acceptable changes over time, so what was acceptable when built 35 years ago might not be so now.