Crossrail stock

[Taunton]

When Crossrail gets going :

Will the Class 345 also run the remaining services from the GE line which run into Liverpool Street, to give consistent stock on the service - I will be surprised if these trains are as popular as through Crossrail services.

How will trains get from the eastern depot at Ilford to the Canary Wharf/Abbey Wood branch, will they be reversed at Whitechapel and what provision is there for this?

As the Canary Wharf/Abbey Wood branch opens a year before the Shenfield line, what will be the intermediate arrangement for any access, or will all trains initially have to come from across London?

If, as many (including Sir Peter Hendy) feel, the service is full from day 1, how quickly could more cars and more trainsets be procured, is a price for these already agreed, and if not will Bombardier have Crossrail by the short-and-curlys over price.

 

[Clip]

Are they not doing up the sidings at Plumstead for Crossrail or did I imagine it?

 

[swt_passenger]

Plumstead is some Crossrail stabling and their infrastructure maintenance depot. I'd thought the main maintenance depot was going to be at Old Oak Common though? I presume they'll have stabling on the northeast branch though, and until the core is open they'll have to transfer to OOC via the NLL

Crossrail's announcement early last year mentioned that they had an option for 18 more trains, I think the consensus was that they might be for the possible WCML service.

 

[Class377/5]

Plumstead is some Crossrail stabling and their infrastructure maintenance depot. I'd thought the main maintenance depot was going to be at Old Oak Common though? I presume they'll have stabling on the northeast branch though, and until the core is open they'll have to transfer to OOC via the NLL

Crossrail's announcement early last year mentioned that they had an option for 18 more trains, I think the consensus was that they might be for the possible WCML service.

Or increasing the 24tph peak service.

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

Not sure the western end can take > 24 tph. 4 to Heathrow, 2 to West Drayton, 4 to Reading/Maidenhead and 14 into the headshunt ....where would any more go? The bays at Slough and Southall aren't big enough and neither are the TV branches (although love to see a 345 with SDO at my local station of Bourne End)

Surely the WCML is the only place extra trains could go West bound?

 

[Class377/5]

Not sure the western end can take > 24 tph. 4 to Heathrow, 2 to West Drayton, 4 to Reading/Maidenhead and 14 into the headshunt ....where would any more go? The bays at Slough and Southall aren't big enough and neither are the TV branches (although love to see a 345 with SDO at my local station of Bourne End)

Surely the WCML is the only place extra trains could go West bound?

8tph to Heathrow if it replaces the Express for starters. Not sure if the talk of increasing was connected to WCML but it was mentioned prior to offical announcement of an extension there. Note as well the OOC design allows for two reversing roads along side the station allowing more turnbacks.

 

[edwin_m]

Heathrow Express has rights to run until about 2022 I think, and I doubt HAL would surrender that given the amount of money they must be making on it. Crossrail replaces Heathrow Connect.

I imagine the Tring service would just extend some of the 14TPH that otherwise terminate at Paddington.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not sure the western end can take > 24 tph. 4 to Heathrow, 2 to West Drayton, 4 to Reading/Maidenhead and 14 into the headshunt ....where would any more go? The bays at Slough and Southall aren't big enough and neither are the TV branches (although love to see a 345 with SDO at my local station of Bourne End)

Surely the WCML is the only place extra trains could go West bound?

London and SE RUS (2011) proposes 10 tph to Heathrow, 6 tph to GWML (as now) and another 8 tph to the WCML

Much depends on medium term plans (i.e. post 2023 track access expiry) for Heathrow Express, Western Access, Airtrack lite, etc etc.

 

[Mikey C]

Heathrow Express has rights to run until about 2022 I think, and I doubt HAL would surrender that given the amount of money they must be making on it. Crossrail replaces Heathrow Connect.

I imagine the Tring service would just extend some of the 14TPH that otherwise terminate at Paddington.

If most of their passengers transfer to Crossrail (which is entirely possible) I'm sure HEx will be amenable to revising the arrangement

 

[Minstral25]

Does HEx really make money. I can't imagine it does and it won't once people start using the alternative CrossRail trains from central London as there will be no need to get to Paddington to start the journey anymore. At which point HEx will become a white elephant like the GatEx service, where booking engines and most passengers just pay less for a service that takes a few minutes longer stopping at a couple of extra stations.

So to me it seems sensible that HEx is absorbed into Crossrail quickly and extra trains run into Heathrow Airport. 10 or 12 per hour probably

 

[JamesRowden]

Does HEx really make money. I can't imagine it does and it won't once people start using the alternative CrossRail trains from central London as there will be no need to get to Paddington to start the journey anymore. At which point HEx will become a white elephant like the GatEx service, where booking engines and most passengers just pay less for a service that takes a few minutes longer stopping at a couple of extra stations.

So to me it seems sensible that HEx is absorbed into Crossrail quickly and extra trains run into Heathrow Airport. 10 or 12 per hour probably

The Western Route Study draft suggests merging the Heathrow Express paths with the future Reading-Heathrow services and running the services beyond Reading in order to provide greater connectivity (through services to Heathrow from more distinations and a single change to HS2 from Basingstoke/Southampton/Bournemouth) and reduce the quantity of services terminating at Reading.

 

[Wolfie]

Does HEx really make money. I can't imagine it does and it won't once people start using the alternative CrossRail trains from central London as there will be no need to get to Paddington to start the journey anymore. At which point HEx will become a white elephant like the GatEx service, where booking engines and most passengers just pay less for a service that takes a few minutes longer stopping at a couple of extra stations.

You couldn't be more wrong!

The link below is to the Heathrow Express Operating Company Financial Report for the year ending Dec 13 (the last I could find with a quick google search)..

The key sentence is: The profit after taxation for the financial year amounted to £4.98 million (2012: £4.56 million).

http://www.heathrowairport.com/stat...athrow-Express-Op-Co-Ltd-31-December-2013.pdf

So to me it seems sensible that HEx is absorbed into Crossrail quickly and extra trains run into Heathrow Airport. 10 or 12 per hour probably

You are aware, of course, that Heathrow owns the tunnel from the GWML to the airport and can permit as many or few trains as it wishes to use it? What makes you think Heathrow will give up a profitable asset and/or allow lots of competition to it? Perhaps if Network Rail were to buy the tunnel (which won't come cheap either)....

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

You are aware, of course, that Heathrow owns the tunnel from the GWML to the airport and can permit as many or few trains as it wishes to use it? What makes you think Heathrow will give up a profitable asset and/or allow lots of competition to it? Perhaps if Network Rail were to buy the tunnel (which won't come cheap either)....

Which is also why travel card are not valid beyond Hayes on the Heathrow connect and it costs quite a bit extra to go beyond Hayes. If Corssrail is just taking over from Heathow connect would the same price structure aslo apply?

If so passengers would have to have an Heathrow specific ticket from Central London.

 

[Mikey C]

When we're spending billions on tunnelling under London, it seems odd to not then buy out the Heathrow tunnel.
If Heathrow airports wants to expand, then it HAS to have more people arriving by public transport - air pollution targets for a start - so won't be able to hang on to paths operated by half empty premium trains.

 

[Wolfie]

Which is also why travel card are not valid beyond Hayes on the Heathrow connect and it costs quite a bit extra to go beyond Hayes. If Corssrail is just taking over from Heathow connect would the same price structure aslo apply?

If so passengers would have to have an Heathrow specific ticket from Central London.

Given that the special fares are how Heathrow make a return on their initial investment in building the tunnel I'll give you three guesses as to the likely answer....

When we're spending billions on tunnelling under London, it seems odd to not then buy out the Heathrow tunnel.

But the building of the tunnel was spun as a triumph for private enterprise. Buying it now at a realistic price will be spun as the UK taxpayer subsidising a (foreign owned) private company...

Oh, and there is a lot of difference between building railway tunnels through Cnetral London for the good of all travellers and purchasing, at a premium price, a tunnel so that a few airport passengers can have lower rail fares....

If Heathrow airports wants to expand, then it HAS to have more people arriving by public transport - air pollution targets for a start - so won't be able to hang on to paths operated by half empty premium trains.

Firstly, as a Londoner I am adamantly opposed to any expansion of Heathrow and shoudl say that at the start. In any event, what is the proportion of pollutants genereted by traffic on the M4 in general versus that going to Heathrow in particular, has the work ever been done? More passengers travelling by public transport does nothing for airplane generated pollution either....

 

[Taunton]

At the end of the day the DfT controls the rail infrastructure, and also controls and licenses airports and, ultimately, will announce the decision on Heathrow expansion. Or not. The DfT has far more hold over Heathrow than they have over the DfT.

So it would be a brave, not to say unwise, airport operator who winds up the DfT. They will have had 25 years of the Express, which is doubtless the period they will have depreciated its construction costs for in their accounts. An agreement between all concerned will happen before Crossrail opens. Among other things it will be necessary to do something about all those passengers, likely a majority, who arrive at Heathrow having touched in with Oyster/Wave Pay at some point across Central London.

 

[Wolfie]

At the end of the day the DfT controls the rail infrastructure, and also controls and licenses airports and, ultimately, will announce the decision on Heathrow expansion. Or not. The DfT has far more hold over Heathrow than they have over the DfT.

So it would be a brave, not to say unwise, airport operator who winds up the DfT. They will have had 25 years of the Express, which is doubtless the period they will have depreciated its construction costs for in their accounts. An agreement between all concerned will happen before Crossrail opens. Among other things it will be necessary to do something about all those passengers, likely a majority, who arrive at Heathrow having touched in with Oyster/Wave Pay at some point across Central London.

Your view about the powers of Govt departments are massively overblown... did you learn nothing about their limitations from the WCML franchising debacle involving none other than the mighty DfT! Make no mistake Heathrow would have me learned friends involved in a trice if DfT tried to strong-arm them in the way you suggest (I suggest you google judicial review).

As for your views on depreciation of capital assets (an accounting issue) the real value of which is actually appreciating (the real world) all I can say is that words fail me! Not a hope in hell of what you suggest coming to pass. Just about every airport trip involves premium fares, why do you believe Heathrow would be any different even if Network Rail owned the tunnel? PAYG Oyster/Wave Pay isn't a big issue (they will be just charged the premium), zonal Travelcards likely will be (my guess owuld be a requirement to buy a supplement)...

 

[RobShipway]

Your view about the powers of Govt departments are massively overblown... did you learn nothing about their limitations from the WCML franchising debacle involving none other than the mighty DfT! Make no mistake Heathrow would have me learned friends involved in a trice if DfT tried to strong-arm them in the way you suggest (I suggest you google judicial review).

As for your views on depreciation of capital assets (an accounting issue) the real value of which is actually appreciating (the real world) all I can say is that words fail me! Not a hope in hell of what you suggest coming to pass. Just about every airport trip involves premium fares, why do you believe Heathrow would be any different even if Network Rail owned the tunnel? PAYG Oyster/Wave Pay isn't a big issue (they will be just charged the premium), zonal Travelcards likely will be (my guess owuld be a requirement to buy a supplement)...

I have to agree with Wolfie's comments above having travelled on both the Heathrow Express services a few times and also the stopping service to Heathrow. All times pretty much paying the same fare on both services.

 

[Minstral25]

You couldn't be more wrong!

The link below is to the Heathrow Express Operating Company Financial Report for the year ending Dec 13 (the last I could find with a quick google search)..

The key sentence is: The profit after taxation for the financial year amounted to £4.98 million (2012: £4.56 million).

http://www.heathrowairport.com/stat...athrow-Express-Op-Co-Ltd-31-December-2013.pdf



You are aware, of course, that Heathrow owns the tunnel from the GWML to the airport and can permit as many or few trains as it wishes to use it? What makes you think Heathrow will give up a profitable asset and/or allow lots of competition to it? Perhaps if Network Rail were to buy the tunnel (which won't come cheap either)....

As an Accountant I can state it actually doesn't show the Heathrow Express makes money, it only shows that the Heathrow Express operating company makes money.

The farebox goes to Heathrow Airport directly not the operating company. It gets paid by Heathrow Airport to run the service - no more. So the operator get paid more than it costs to run.

We thus don't know the fare income against the costs.

I've not travelled on the service so I don't know if the trains are full constantly all day. I'd suspect there are a few busy periods and most of the day it runs fairly empty - judging by GatEx which I do see and occasionally travel upon. i would thus suspect the Fares do not pay for the service and hence Heathrow is hiding the Income so it doesn't have to show this.

Once Crossrail starts going to Heathrow I'd expect a lot of custom to move over making HEx even less attractive. Ths my original expectation (i.e. Guess) is that HEx service will move over to Crossrail pretty quickly but not announced as they are still negotiating.

 

[swt_passenger]

The London and SE RUS consultation resulted in separate responses from both Heathrow Airport Limited (the operating company) and the overall owners BAA (as it was at that time, subsequently reorganised/sold).

BAA, as the top level organisation at that time, stated that they were OK with the basic idea of Crossrail taking over the Hex paths as long as some sort of skip stopping pattern operated especially off-peak.

The idea that the owners of Hex were fundamentally opposed to it ending in 2023 was not supported by the consultation responses, taken as a whole.

 

[D6975]

When Crossrail gets going :

Will the Class 345 also run the remaining services from the GE line which run into Liverpool Street, to give consistent stock on the service - I will be surprised if these trains are as popular as through Crossrail services.

There's a separate possible order for 39/45 4 car units (depending where you read it) for suburban services out of Liverpool St. I wouldn't be surprised if these turn out to be a short version of the 345.

 

[D365]

There's a separate possible order for 39/45 4 car units (depending where you read it) for suburban services out of Liverpool St. I wouldn't be surprised if these turn out to be a short version of the 345.

This is a TfL procurement for LO rather than Crossrail, of which from the 'at least 39 units' specified, eight will be for the Goblin electrics and one for the Romford-Upminster shuttle. The majority are for the Lea Valley Lines but it is not known how the allocation will change with an expansion of the order.

Also there's an option for 18 further 9x23m units for Crossrail on top of the 65 on order from Bombardier, this is to account for the possibility of any extensions and frequency enhancements when service begins.

 

[Class377/5]

Any new build EMU from Bombardier will be an Aventra design as they no longer offer up the Electrostar model after the 387 order.

The class 345 is a 23m 9 car variant of the Aventra, so if Bombardier win the new TfL order, it would be a 20m 4 car Aventra model.

 

[306024]

This is a TfL procurement for LO rather than Crossrail, of which from the 'at least 39 units' specified, eight will be for the Goblin electrics and one for the Romford-Upminster shuttle. The majority are for the Lea Valley Lines but it is not known how the allocation will change with an expansion of the order.

Also there's an option for 18 further 9x23m units for Crossrail on top of the 65 on order from Bombardier, this is to account for the possibility of any extensions and frequency enhancements when service begins.

The Lea Valley route (which is via Brimsdown) remains with AGA and 317s, the new units are for the Seven Sisters line services to Enfield and Cheshunt, as well as Chingford, Barking - Gospel Oak and Romford - Upminster.

All Liverpool St - Shenfield services will be in the hands of class 345s once the service goes down the tunnel, but the services to Liverpool St will remain 7 cars until platforms 16 and 17 are lengthened to accommodate a 9 car 345.

 

[D365]

Apologies, I should have been specific about these Anglia routes. London Overground will be taking on a mix of 315s and ex-Stansted Express 317/7-8 classes in the interim.

Assuming this is 23m carriage lengths you are talking about, terminal platforms will have to be lengthened first then.

 

[306024]

No problem, it is a common slip of the tongue on here

The existing platforms 16 and 17 at Liverpool St can't be lengthened before May 19 when the Shenfield service runs through the tunnel to Paddington. To lenghten 16 and 17 involves the loss of platform 18, but the current timetable requires platforms 15 to 18 in the peak.

7 car 345s (23m) can run to Liverpool St, and will do so from May 17 on current timescales. Once platforms 16 and 17 are lengthened, the few remaining 7 car 345s operating peak Gidea Park to Liverpool St services can be turned into 9 cars.

 

[D365]

Oh right, so they are going to have to shorten a batch. I suppose that's possible before 'the tunnel' opens, after which the platform modifications may go ahead and the 'peak units' may be made up to full size.

 

[306024]

That's the gist of it, just one of the many complexities of the project.

 

[Bigfoot]

Crossrail replaces Heathrow Connect.

If the crossrail trains replace the connects where/who will have the 360s. 5x5cars not a huge fleet but useful somewhere no doubt.

 

[D365]

If the crossrail trains replace the connects where/who will have the 360s. 5x5cars not a huge fleet but useful somewhere no doubt.

*sigh* This has been talked over again and again!

One would logically assume to Greater Anglia as they share the Desiro build sans gangway. Ultimately it's up to Heathrow what happens as they own the 360/2s.

For the record, this topic is intended to be about the Crossrail Class 345 and the build-up to service introduction. The ensuing cascades have been discussed plenty elsewhere.