Crossrail Stock shortlist.

[starrymarkb]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/crossrail-issues-rolling-stock-shortlist.html

UK: Crossrail Ltd announced on March 30 that it had shortlisted Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, Hitachi and Siemens for the contract to supply rolling stock and depot facilities for the new east-west route across London. ‘Work continues to finalise our detailed requirements for the new trains and we expect that shortlisted companies will be invited to submit bids in late 2011 with a view to awarding a contract in late 2013’, said Crossrail Ltd Chief Executive Rob Holden.

It is expected that around 60 EMUs, to be designated Class 345, will be required for Crossrail. Each trainset will be around 200 m in length and able to carry up to 1 500 passengers, offering high capacity ‘to meet the needs of passengers joining and alighting in the central section while also accommodating those travelling from further afield’. Crossrail services will run for 118 km from Shenfield and Abbey Wood east of London to Maidenhead and Heathrow Airport in the west, calling at a total of 37 stations.

‘To ensure value for money’, Crossrail Ltd intends that the new fleet will be ‘based upon technology already developed by the worldwide rolling stock market for deployment on other railways’. The project promoter specifically states that ‘a revolutionary new train design is not required’.

Capital cost of the new fleet and depot facilities will be in the region of £1bn. ‘Arrangement of finance will be required as part of supplier bids’, says Crossrail Ltd.

 

[Oswyntail]

Why on earth is this tender being done separately from Thameslink 2000?

 

[starrymarkb]

As I understand it Crossrail is a TfL managed project, and Thameslink is DfT

 

[asylumxl]

As I understand it Crossrail is a TfL managed project, and Thameslink is DfT

Crossrail will be about 40 miles end to end; and the chances of nobody will go end to end.

Thameslink is 102 miles. Huge numbers of people do more than the length of Crossrail every day in the form of BDM to STP.

So I hope the DaFT isn't daft enough to order metro-esque trains for Thameslink.

 

[tbtc]

I got worried when I saw only sixty units, but if these are 200m then its going to be roughly equivalent to a nine/ten coach train, so maybe that's the same as about equivalent to 120/150 EMUs... yeah, the figures look a lot better now I've had the chance to think about them...

Glad to hear that "a revolutionary new train design is not required" - I'd much rather have something tried and tested which will work straight out of the box. On a normal order of EMUs there's *some* contingency if things go wrong (e.g. if the 379s have problems then 317s stay on the Stansted services a little longer), but given the new sections running through central London, we are going to be in big trouble if we have the same teething problems with the "345"s that we have had some with some "revolutionary" new designs...

 

[WatcherZero]

From what I understand they are encouraging companies to bid for both and realise savings from designing and prototyping a new train.

Thing is Bombardier and Siemens have both designed a new train for these two contracts already so whether it would be practical for them to put that into practise or whether they would have to fall back on existing production models to compete on price... If they do its a missed opportunity.

 

[tbtc]

Crossrail will be about 40 miles end to end; and the chances of nobody will go end to end

Thameslink is 102 miles. Huge numbers of people do more than the length of Crossrail every day in the form of BDM to STP

True, the other big difference between Crossrail and Thameslink being that Crossrail will be the "slow" line from Shenfield to Liverpool Street and from Paddington to Maidenhead, so anyone doing those journeys is likely to use the "fast" GEML/ GWML services.

Thameslink, on the other hand, will be the "only" service on some lines, so passengers are much more likely to use it for longer distances.

Then again, the two airports (Luton and Gatwick) may mean Thameslink gets units with wide doors/ luggage space to stand in (which would be more "Metro")

So I hope the DaFT isn't daft enough

Famous last words

 

[Zoe]

Crossrail will be using ATO, how many off the shelf trains have this?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Munich S-Bahn has ATO, built by Alstom I think

 

[starrymarkb]

From what I understand they are encouraging companies to bid for both and realise savings from designing and prototyping a new train.

Thing is Bombardier and Siemens have both designed a new train for these two contracts already so whether it would be practical for them to put that into practise or whether they would have to fall back on existing production models to compete on price... If they do its a missed opportunity.

They are meaning something not like this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...refunded-following-High-Court-challenge..html (ignore URL, it is about trains rather then motorists)

Bombardier and Siemens' designs were based on the Electrostar and Desiro (both having a diet and tweaks for high frequency operation)

 

[WatcherZero]

Whats so radical about that? all those features (wide vestibules, horizintally mounted seats, articulation) are all in service today.

 

[LexyBoy]

‘a revolutionary new train design is not required’

Where's the big thinking in that? Surely in ten years time they’ll be kicking themselves that they didn’t specify the ability to split & join en-route, and include provision for the trains to be self-powered in case of OHL failure, preferably with as many engines as will fit. And what about the ability to convert to mag-lev propulsion – why didn’t they specify that? </sarcasm>

Good to see a bit of common sense coming with the old purse strings being tightened – though I too would like to see the Thameslink order combined, it’s not that differenent – TL would just require a variant with 750V pickup, higher top speed and an interior set-up more suited to long-distance work (though suitable for mega-crush too).

 

[starrymarkb]

Whats so radical about that? all those features (wide vestibules, horizintally mounted seats, articulation) are all in service today.

It was rejected for Thameslink as too radical for the UK...

 

[gordonthemoron]

surely all seats are horizontal? otherwise you'd fall off

 

[WatcherZero]

They are fastened to the side walls of the passenger compartment rather than the floor, supposed to make cleaning easier but they pickup awful lateral vibrations.

 

[Blindtraveler]

wel whatever fcc get i'm glad the orders are split, one sides delay would impact the other.

surely all seats are horizontal? otherwise you'd fall off

 

[swt_passenger]

...higher top speed and an interior set-up more suited to long-distance work...

Crossrail might need that as well - if they are extended to Reading as 99% of people seem to want; and as flagged up in the London and SE RUS...

 

[asylumxl]

Crossrail might need that as well - if they are extended to Reading as 99% of people seem to want; and as flagged up in the London and SE RUS...

It'd still be 51 miles in length. 1 mile more than BDM to STP. They're quite different creatures IMO.

 

[NXEA!]

Crossrail might need that as well - if they are extended to Reading as 99% of people seem to want; and as flagged up in the London and SE RUS...

Don't forget though that Crossrail won't be transporting lots of people from end to end, it'll be shifting people between intermediate stations and on shorter journeys generally. Only time I can see people travelling end to end or close to that is when there are events, such as Reading festival, or V festival near Chelmsford, where people from the east might want to travel to Reading to attend that, or people from the west might want to travel to Chelmsford albeit with changes. And that's only once a year. So IMO I would say it needs more of a metro style seating layout. Not horizontal like the 378's, 3+2 would be better IMO.

 

[tbtc]

Crossrail might need that as well - if they are extended to Reading as 99% of people seem to want; and as flagged up in the London and SE RUS...

It'd still take twice as long as the FGW "fast" service though, approx 30 mins vs 60 mins), which isn't going to attract the longer distance commuters.

Out of interest, how long does anyone think the NXEMUs will be built to last for? With 200m EMUs I can't imagine them easily being cascaded round the country (like the 319s may be...)

 

[w1bbl3]

Turning the argument on it's head why does the stock need to be built with future cascades in mind, pendolinos, 91's+mk4's and 395's couldn't really be seen as designed with future cascades in mind. Moreover didn't the original 127's only ever serve Bedford to St. Pancras from introduction to electrification and withdrawal. A 30 to 40 year economic life would make sense for the routes in question, ATO and Platform edge door support will make the stock somewhat bespoke to the route anyway.

Single purpose stock has worked rather well for high(ish) speed intercity routes and TfL tube lines.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite- essentially, this will be run as a tube line. Much of the route will be dedicated, with platform edge doors in the core.

 

[tbtc]

Single purpose stock has worked rather well for high(ish) speed intercity routes and TfL tube lines.

There have been some "cascades" on high speed intercity routes, such as the Deltics moving on to Transpennine services once the HSTs were up and running.

TFL lines is a bit different, due to the clearances, there aren't any other lines the stock could phycially work in a lot of cases. However in twenty years time there will be a few more lines electrified than today and scope for mid-life EMUs to be cascaded elsewhere. The 319s are nowhere near the oldest EMUs, yet they are being moved away from London

 

[jopsuk]

the 319s being cascaded though is primarily down to a drive to have a single stock type working Thameslink services- once everything (including hopefully ATO signalling in the core) is complete. Once the current project is complete (and the same goes for Crossrail) any expansion would involve such massive amounts of rebuilding it is unlikely within the service life of the stock.

 

[tbtc]

the 319s being cascaded though is primarily down to a drive to have a single stock type working Thameslink services- once everything (including hopefully ATO signalling in the core) is complete. Once the current project is complete (and the same goes for Crossrail) any expansion would involve such massive amounts of rebuilding it is unlikely within the service life of the stock.

Fair enough, cheers

 

[Waddon]

Isn't the spec for crossrail 10 car services which can be split into 5 car for offpeak services and option to be updated to 6/12 car for the future? Maybe they've abandoned the idea of reducing the length of offpeak services in order to save cost, but will mean 10 car trains running mostly empty at off peak times... Plus doesn't the spec call for platform-edge doors for subsurface platforms, which I would assume would require some new technology innovation on the trains?

 

[gordonthemoron]

4, 8 & 12 would be a better idea

 

[Southend Rider]

Isn't the spec for crossrail 10 car services which can be split into 5 car for offpeak services and option to be updated to 6/12 car for the future? Maybe they've abandoned the idea of reducing the length of offpeak services in order to save cost, but will mean 10 car trains running mostly empty at off peak times... Plus doesn't the spec call for platform-edge doors for subsurface platforms, which I would assume would require some new technology innovation on the trains?[

The current off peak Metro services from Liverpool Street to Shenfield run every 10 mins are 8 cars and still full & standing on most services when leaving Stratford. I think 10 cars will be needed on these services all day.

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn't the spec for crossrail 10 car services which can be split into 5 car for offpeak services and option to be updated to 6/12 car for the future?

They did change the plans, the Crossrail Act is written just as you say, but the OJEU prior information notice changed this explicitly to 57 diagrams (poss 63 units) in 200m fixed formation (10 car nominal - depending on individual coach length).

http://www.dragondark.co.uk/lr/PIN.pdf

Subsequently it became known that some trains will however be introduced as 160m (8 car nominal) formation for use into Liverpool St.

AIUI the deep stations will still be 250m long to allow extension in future.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

4, 8 & 12 would be a better idea

Not if the underground platforms are being built initially for 10 car length...

 

[Class377/5]

Isn't the spec for crossrail 10 car services which can be split into 5 car for offpeak services and option to be updated to 6/12 car for the future? Maybe they've abandoned the idea of reducing the length of offpeak services in order to save cost, but will mean 10 car trains running mostly empty at off peak times... Plus doesn't the spec call for platform-edge doors for subsurface platforms, which I would assume would require some new technology innovation on the trains?

Not 100% sure on this but thing there was an idea of spilting the trains up but now they are going for a more full formation like Thameslink is.

10 cars trains may be empty on the western side (I don't know that side well at all) but for Central London and alot of the eastern end 10 cars won't be dead at all.

This situation is something that Thameslink will mirror too with suitable lengths at peaks but off peak there's no scope for change. What you get for trying to ensure your new fleet can cope with peak.

They did change the plans, the Crossrail Act is written just as you say, but the OJEU prior information notice changed this explicitly to 57 diagrams (poss 63 units) in 200m fixed formation (10 car nominal - depending on individual coach length).

http://www.dragondark.co.uk/lr/PIN.pdf

Subsequently it became known that some trains will however be introduced as 160m (8 car nominal) formation for use into Liverpool St.

AIUI the deep stations will still be 250m long to allow extension in future.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Not if the underground platforms are being built initially for 10 car length...

They are supposed to be introduced as an 8 car train then have extra carriages inserted just like the 378's did recently (which seemed to have gone rather well for Bombarbier).

Actually it's been publicly stated that the underground platforms will be built to 12 car lengths but the trains will be initially 10 cars until traffic warrants it. Same thing happened with the JLE.