Crossrail - Reducing the cost

[londonteacher]

So, I know that currently there are no plans for freight trains to run on the Crossrail infrastructure but could this not change?

• Reduced demand post covid might mean that 24tph are not needed through the core so there could be many paths available.
• TFL would receive the fees for using the track reducing the overall cost of the system.
• Trains could come from the ports in Essex and Kent as well as the Channel Tunnel and head out west towards the South West and Wales.
• Use of a fully electrified and more direct route.

But, I openly admit I don't know much about freight operations - would there be demand for such a route? I'm sure it would be quicker and would allow for fully electric trains to be used instead of travelling on the NLL or around South London.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think gauging is adequate for freight, plus the gradients used in the tunnel will be too steep, before the details of pathing are considered.

Plus I know not a single example of freight running on CBTC signalling.

 

[Domh245]

Fully electrified freight isn't going to happen - it'd only get as far as Cardiff/Newbury before needing a diesel locomotive to take over, if there was any demand for electrified freight from Essex/Kent to Cardiff/Newbury, there'd have been pressure to electrify the link between the WLL and the GWML at Acton. I think this was discussed the last time there was a thread on here about freight through the Crossrail Core.

Also worth remembering that Crossrail is pathed for 24 high acceleration, 205m long trains per hour - a freight train (assuming you've got a locomotive powerful enough for the gradients and that won't demolish the infrastructure through being out of gauge) won't have a hope of running in that path, you'd quickly lose a lot of paths per single freight through the core.

 

[Speed43125]

Short of having a couple around the first and last passenger train times, I don't think you could really fit anything into the core. The tunnels are built to GB+ but I suspect the platforms may eat into any W12 container traffic.

 

[DerekC]

A CBTC compatible freight should be feasible - I can't see any reason why not, although you would probably just install the ATP functionality and stick with a manual driver. Of course if Crossrail had done the sensible thing and used an ETCS-based solution there wouldn't be a problem from that perspective.

The journey time from Ealing Broadway to Stratford (according to the Crossrail website's journey planner) is 27 minutes, which works out at around 30 mph so average speed for a freight would be OK. A freight would probably take up a couple of 24tph passenger paths because of the lower brake rate and much greater train length - you would have to model it to see the impact.

However it seems that the SRA's original specification for Crossrail did include compatibility for freight, but this was designed out in the 2007 cost cutting exercise, so gradients almost certainly would be the killer.

 

[Domh245]

A CBTC compatible freight should be feasible - I can't see any reason why not, although you would probably just install the ATP functionality and stick with a manual driver. Of course if Crossrail had done the sensible thing and used an ETCS-based solution there wouldn't be a problem from that perspective.

A CBTC compatible EMU designed specifically for Crossrail should be feasible but they don't seem to have cracked it yet!
I cannot comment on specifics, but things like train continuity/detection would likely cause issues, and that's before considering actually integrating it onto whatever electric loco the FOC is trying to run the service with. The only one which won't be a nightmare to install would be DRS' 88s, it's not even worth thinking about the issues you'd face trying to work on a 90 or 92

The journey time from Ealing Broadway to Stratford (according to the Crossrail website's journey planner) is 27 minutes, which works out at around 30 mph so average speed for a freight would be OK. A freight would probably take up a couple of 24tph passenger paths because of the lower brake rate and much greater train length - you would have to model it to see the impact.

The issue there is that the 30mph average speed includes station stops. The 19 minute journey from Paddington to Stratford has 5 intermediate stops, roughly one every 4 minutes. In order to make freight through the core have even a chance of working successfully you'd want to flight it so that the freight has got a clear run the whole way through, which would interfere quite a bit with both the frequency and also the clockface(/turn up & go) timetable

 

[BayPaul]

Reduced demand post covid might mean that 24tph are not needed through the core so there could be many paths available.

I can't see demand dropping that much. If anything was to be reduced, the frequency on the central line would probably take the hit, to increase the service life of those trains by reducing their workload, allowing a delay to the Central's new trains.

 

[gsnedders]

I can't see demand dropping that much. If anything was to be reduced, the frequency on the central line would probably take the hit, to increase the service life of those trains by reducing their workload, allowing a delay to the Central's new trains.

I strongly agree. For many routes Crossrail is essentially a relief line to Central Line overcrowding, and avoiding that overcrowding is going to become more important. It's also worthwhile remembering that Crossrail isn't starting with 24tph through the core, it's starting with 12tph.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I can't see demand dropping that much. If anything was to be reduced, the frequency on the central line would probably take the hit, to increase the service life of those trains by reducing their workload, allowing a delay to the Central's new trains.

In normal, non-Covid times, the Central Line is very busy east/north of Stratford. In no normal circumstances can the frequency be reduced, even off-peak. Crossrail may well increase patronage of the Central Line in the eastern suburbs as residents of Waltham Forest, Redbridge and the Epping Forest district of Essex will use it to access Crossrail.

 

[Bald Rick]

On a point of order, the average freight train track access charge is really peanuts in the scheme of things. And routing this way isn’t going to significantly improve the attractiveness of rail freight - ie attract more freight on to the network, which is what would be needed to make any new income.