Crossrail Paddington Terminators

[Nym]

Yes, I know the service pattern isn't fully decided yet, but as far as I am aware, 14 - 16tph will be terminating from Liverpool St at Paddington for Crossrail. Am I the only person in the world that thinks this is stupid?

A few ideas.

Link to the Met Line using the Dudden Hill Alignment 4 tracking between Dudden Hill and the Met Line and 25kv/750VDC the line, dual voltage stock for crossrail (ya know, the same as thameslink) Run 25KV OHL for the full length from GWML to MML (to connect to the MML for ECS, freight etc.) Grade seperated juncton at Neasden continuing 25KV OHL to Wembley Park where it would switch over to 630V/750V DC. Met Line to retain Uxbridge - Algate service. All Baker St terminators (10tph) handed over to Crossrail with current Calling Pattern.

Using the same Dudden Hill link as above, connect the WCML to Crossrail, handing over any of the following...
Watford DC Line 3 - 4tph
Tring / Milton Keynes Central slows, 3 - 4tph

Electrify the Greenford Branch Line and retain it's 2 - 4tph into Crossrail, avoiding a Diesel Island.

Electrify the Slough - Windsor Branch line, this would need a flying junction to cross the mainline though, so proberbly less likley.

TBH. The link to the WCML and Chiltern/Met line seems most sensible, esp if it links in to the MML and the same stock is ordered for both Crossrail and Thameslink, but that would make too much bloddy sense!

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, I know the service pattern isn't fully decided yet, but as far as I am aware, 14 - 16tph will be terminating from Liverpool St at Paddington for Crossrail. Am I the only person in the world that thinks this is stupid?

In the service pattern described in the Crossrail Act, 14 will be terminating at Paddington (they actually run through to a dummy station at Westbourne Park), and 10 will run through, 4 to Heathrow Connect, 4 to Maidenhead, and 2 to West Drayton. With electrification of the GWML to Reading, announced, it will be amazing if that doesn't change anyway.

But some ideas are already being discussed by those in a position to make changes. In the draft London and SE 2nd generation RUS, issued a few weeks ago, Network Rail are already proposing to run Heathrow Express onto Crossrail, that'll be four more tph, and also run the WCML Tring terminators onto Crossrail.

 

[tbtc]

Yes, I know the service pattern isn't fully decided yet, but as far as I am aware, 14 - 16tph will be terminating from Liverpool St at Paddington for Crossrail. Am I the only person in the world that thinks this is stupid?

No, but I can see the logic in starting Crossrail as a "closed" system, letting it settle, seeing what works...

...THEN, after a few years when it has proved to be a success as a self-contained system, consider more services through the Thames Valley/ up the WCML to cover Milton Keynes/ Greenford/ beyond Heathrow to SWT-terriroty, similarly beyond Abbey Wood into the Medway towns etc. Southend?

Its the same as Thameslink only running one route north of London - it'd have been a disaster if they'd tried to run to Cambridge/ Peterborough at first. However, there is obvious room for expansion in the future.

At first, I thought like you about the "nonsense' of terminating so many services at Paddington, but now (looking at how the most efficient London Underground services are the ones which aren't contaminated by cross-running on other lines) I can see the logic in starting Crossrail on simple terms, with the potential for longer-distance routes (and more routes beyond Paddington) at some stage in the future. Better to do a simple thing well, at first, and persuade people of your ambition than for the whole thing to fall apart in the early days.

 

[Southern Steve]

If HS2 runs as planned into Euston, capacity at that terminus would need to be released, and one way of achieving this would be to divert the LM outer-suburban services to Crossrail. It seems to me that a potential problem with extending all services beyond Paddington deep into commuterland is that morning peak hour trains will be full by the time they reach Paddington, and passengers attempting to board westbound Crossrail trains at Paddington (from Reading, Oxford, Newbury, Swindon and points west) will lead to serious overcrowding. I can see similar problems at Liverpool Street.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If HS2 runs as planned into Euston, capacity at that terminus would need to be released, and one way of achieving this would be to divert the LM outer-suburban services to Crossrail. It seems to me that a potential problem with extending all services beyond Paddington deep into commuterland is that morning peak hour trains will be full by the time they reach Paddington, and passengers attempting to board westbound Crossrail trains at Paddington (from Reading, Oxford, Newbury, Swindon and points west) will lead to serious overcrowding. I can see similar problems at Liverpool Street.

oops, meant to say 'passengers attempting to board eastbound Crossrail trains at Paddington...'

 

[anthony263]

There is a report about running some crossrail services to hounslow

 

[swt_passenger]

There is a report about running some crossrail services to hounslow

There are many reports from the local councils in that area insisting it shouldn't - which is why it was dropped from the plans.

 

[route:oxford]

If HS2 runs as planned into Euston, capacity at that terminus would need to be released, and one way of achieving this would be to divert the LM outer-suburban services to Crossrail. It seems to me that a potential problem with extending all services beyond Paddington deep into commuterland is that morning peak hour trains will be full by the time they reach Paddington, and passengers attempting to board westbound Crossrail trains at Paddington (from Reading, Oxford, Newbury, Swindon and points west) will lead to serious overcrowding. I can see similar problems at Liverpool Street.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


oops, meant to say 'passengers attempting to board eastbound Crossrail trains at Paddington...'

Why would you bother with all the faffing about at Paddington when you could switch to a Crossrail service at Reading?

It would probably save you a few minutes travel time overall too.

 

[tbtc]

Why would you bother with all the faffing about at Paddington when you could switch to a Crossrail service at Reading?

It would probably save you a few minutes travel time overall too.

Presumably the Crossrail services to Reading (if they run beyond Maidenhead etc etc) are going to be in the place of the current "stoppers" - at the moment these take just under an hour - with EMUs you may get that down to 50 minutes, but that's still around twice the time the HSTs do it non-stop. I think, with those timings that I'd still rather take the "fast" train and change at Paddington

 

[Ivo]

No, but I can see the logic in starting Crossrail as a "closed" system, letting it settle, seeing what works...

...THEN, after a few years when it has proved to be a success as a self-contained system, consider more services through the Thames Valley/ up the WCML to cover Milton Keynes/ Greenford/ beyond Heathrow to SWT-terriroty, similarly beyond Abbey Wood into the Medway towns etc. Southend?

Says only about 99% of my home town, especially given the airport expansion. I honestly don't see the point in expanding from 6x4ph to 12x10ph on the GEML slow line, so surely the 6 new runs could alternate between Southend Vic and Upminster, and run fast between Stratford and Romford? Obviously though, that creates capacity problems both west and south-east of Romford though, with six tracking likely to be needed and dualling through Emerson Park a certainty...! What it would mean, though, is a direct service between Heathrow and Southend airports would be possible, which by the time Crossrail services commence will probably prove to be quite a valuable connection.

As for Medway, again I don't see why they don't use the same approach. Start at Gillingham, and run all stations to Gravesend, then call only at Dartford before Abbey Wood EDIT: Someone forgot about Bluewater. The Medway runs can call at Greenhithe also. I actually made a timetable (yes, I know, another one!) with this exact approach some time ago, albeit using a 20tph system and not a 24tph one, and gave Gillingham five an hour.

Overall, I would suggest running six slows from each of Shenfield and Abbey Wood to any of Maidenhead, West Drayton or Greenford (say four each), and then the remaining twelve could run fast to the Crossrail junction at either Stratford or Abbey Wood, and then continue to either Reading (four) or Heathrow (eight, alternating between Connect and Express).

Or they could just edit it to run a concentrated "central" service between Stratford/Canary Wharf (alternating) and Paddington, and terminate only 12 there? That would facilitate Greenford as a possible destination, assuming it was electrified as well (as opposed to becoming a diesel island).

But then, what do I know? I always get ignored whenever I try proposing something for real (the hopefully ill-fated South Essex Rapid Transit springs to mind: I suggested that the A13 is what they should be concentrating on, and not just with a Quality Bus Corridor either; possibly even a tram line running eight an hour between Pitsea and Southend with alternating links to Basildon and Pitsea station to the west and Pier Hill or Shoeburyness [maybe assuming the LTS line east of Central] to the east*. Instead, they think that what people really need is a service between Purfleet and Lakeside, which last I checked already existed), so hey.

* I only mentioned that the A13 should be the priority and vaguely proposed a tram; I didn't go into any detail though, not even to the degree seen here. That work is constantly changing, so there is no point in publicising it.

 

[Zoe]

Says only about 99% of my home town, especially given the airport expansion. I honestly don't see the point in expanding from 6x4ph to 12x10ph on the GEML slow line

It's not really an expansion, off peak I beleive the service from Shenfield is to remain at 6 tph. 2 to Maidenhead and the other 4 terminating at Paddington.

 

[Ivo]

First I've heard of it (I think), although it would certainly make sense. There is still the matter of longer trains though, so the capacity increases regardless.

 

[Zoe]

First I've heard of it (I think), although it would certainly make sense. There is still the matter of longer trains though, so the capacity increases regardless.

As far as I know, the 24 tph was only ever going to be the peak service.

 

[tbtc]

Says only about 99% of my home town, especially given the airport expansion. I honestly don't see the point in expanding from 6x4ph to 12x10ph on the GEML slow line, so surely the 6 new runs could alternate between Southend Vic and Upminster, and run fast between Stratford and Romford? Obviously though, that creates capacity problems both west and south-east of Romford though, with six tracking likely to be needed and dualling through Emerson Park a certainty...! What it would mean, though, is a direct service between Heathrow and Southend airports would be possible, which by the time Crossrail services commence will probably prove to be quite a valuable connection.

As for Medway, again I don't see why they don't use the same approach. Start at Gillingham, and run all stations to Gravesend, then call only at Dartford before Abbey Wood. I actually made a timetable (yes, I know, another one!) with this exact approach some time ago, albeit using a 20tph system and not a 24tph one, and gave Gillingham five an hour.

Overall, I would suggest running six slows from each of Shenfield and Abbey Wood to any of Maidenhead, West Drayton or Greenford (say four each), and then the remaining twelve could run fast to the Crossrail junction at either Stratford or Abbey Wood, and then continue to either Reading (four) or Heathrow (eight, alternating between Connect and Express).

Or they could just edit it to run a concentrated "central" service between Stratford/Canary Wharf (alternating) and Paddington, and terminate only 12 there? That would facilitate Greenford as a possible destination, assuming it was electrified as well (as opposed to becoming a diesel island).

But then, what do I know? I always get ignored whenever I try proposing something for real

I think those are interesting and valid points.I could see some of that working. However, I think they are being extra-cautious at first and avoiding things which will complicate (e.g. "fast" services, running on the same tracks as "non Crossrail" services). You could run services 100 miles long through the central section, maybe one day we'll have Milton Keynes/Oxford/ Basingstoke - Ipswich/ Gillingham service (and Anglia Railways ideas will come to life. But it seems to be "safety first". We can still dream though, eh?

 

[LE Greys]

Depending on capacity, I would be looking at plugging Heathrow Express into Stansted Express, although that would require some kind of connection at Stratford. The crucial thing is to link both airports by a fast service into the City and the Docklands, thus avoiding a lot of taxi journeys from Paddington. Good airport access is crucial for big business, although I imagine City Airport won't be happy. The other question is access to the Euston/St Pancras/King's Cross complex (for services on HS1 and HS2). Old Oak and Stratford can handle some of that, but a link to the terminus would be preferable (at least until HS3 gets built with its new station at West Drayton on the way to Cardiff ).

Meanwhile, some of the Superlink plans might be worth a look.

Why would you bother with all the faffing about at Paddington when you could switch to a Crossrail service at Reading?

It would probably save you a few minutes travel time overall too.

Assuming 100mph for the EMUs and 125mph for the expresses, the time gain would probably be marginal. Most likely, anyone going to Paddington will continue to use the Underground lines anyway.

 

[Zoe]

Assuming 100mph for the EMUs and 125mph for the expresses, the time gain would probably be marginal. Most likely, anyone going to Paddington will continue to use the Underground lines anyway.

100 mph may well be the top speed but they won't be running non-stop from Reading to Paddington. Even if Crossrail was to be extended to Reading, I think most people would still use the intercity service to Paddington.

 

[Southern Steve]

100 mph may well be the top speed but they won't be running non-stop from Reading to Paddington. Even if Crossrail was to be extended to Reading, I think most people would still use the intercity service to Paddington.

Exactly - many of whom would then wish to transfer to eastbound Crossrail trains for their onward journeys to the West End and City. It would then make sense to have some Crossrail journeys originating at Paddington - at least in the AM peak - rather than trying to cram Paddington passengers onto trains that are already full from Heathrow, Maidenhead, Greenford, Tring or wherever.

 

[LexyBoy]

Exactly - many of whom would then wish to transfer to eastbound Crossrail trains for their onward journeys to the West End and City. It would then make sense to have some Crossrail journeys originating at Paddington - at least in the AM peak - rather than trying to cram Paddington passengers onto trains that are already full from Heathrow, Maidenhead, Greenford, Tring or wherever.

That logic only works if you assume that many passengers on services terminating at Paddington will take the Tube rather than Crossrail (which is a perfectly reasonable assumption). Otherwise you'd just be transferring folk from an extended Crossrail onto other services, and the cram would be just the same at Paddington.

IIRC the NR RUS for the GWML suggests removing the Heathrow Express into Crossrail, and using the 4 paths per hour for a Reading-Paddington shuttle using 125 mph 10-car EMUs, which seems like a very sensible and much needed solution to overcrowding on this route (and would probably allow some IC workings to be pick up/set down only at Reading, helping to ease congestion). In the future maybe such trains could even be part of Crossrail if expanding the route can be done without causing havoc on reliability.

I believe however than BAA are set against giving up Heathrow Express, though god knows who's going to use it if Crossrail can take them to more useful places for less money and faster than changing at Paddington...

 

[Waddon]

I know this is probably a silly question, but is there likely to be any capacity on crossrail to carry cross-london freight?

 

[Zoe]

I believe however than BAA are set against giving up Heathrow Express, though god knows who's going to use it if Crossrail can take them to more useful places for less money and faster than changing at Paddington...

Premium fares will apply on Crossrail to Heathrow. Heathrow Express will still be faster as it will be non-stop.

 

[tbtc]

Premium fares will apply on Crossrail to Heathrow. Heathrow Express will still be faster as it will be non-stop.

Heathrow Express will be faster to Paddington, but (once you factor in the time taken to walk to/from the Crossrail platforms at Paddington) it may not be much faster to "The City"/ "Docklands (which may be the kind of destinations the business people using Heathrow Express are heading for (or even for Tottenham Court Road etc)

This may be more of an issue westbound, when you are already on a Heathrow bound train, and the gaps between HEX services is a lot longer than the gaps between Crossrail services (so less of an issue eastbound?)

 

[Zoe]

This may be more of an issue westbound, when you are already on a Heathrow bound train, and the gaps between HEX services is a lot longer than the gaps between Crossrail services (so less of an issue eastbound?)

Crossrail will be 4 tph to Heathrow, so the gap between services is the same as for the Heathrow Express.

 

[tbtc]

Crossrail will be 4 tph to Heathrow, so the gap between services is the same as for the Heathrow Express.

What I was meaning was:

Eastbound: If you are at Heathrow, you may be tempted to get the HEX into Paddington and change onto a Crossrail service (every few minutes) to get to The City/Docklands etc

Westbound: If you are on a westbound Crossrail service to Heathrow (from The City/Docklands etc) you are going to be less inclined to negotiate the escalators (etc) at Paddington to come up to the "Mainline" platforms and wait for a fifteen minute HEX service (when the train you are already on is going to Heathrow anyway, albeit making a couple of stops west of Paddington)

 

[LE Greys]

I know this is probably a silly question, but is there likely to be any capacity on crossrail to carry cross-london freight?

Afraid you're more likely to see freight on the Circle Line. No paths available.

 

[cle]

I would have thought the frequency for T123 and T4 Crossrail trains could sustain more than 4tph? Can't they run 6tph and use up two of the Paddington terminator paths?

They could each have 2tph pairs of stopping patterns to have some skip stopping e.g. and

e.g.
A - Acton Mainline - Ealing Broadway - Southall - Hayes - LHR
B - Ealing Broadway - West Ealing - Hanwell - Hayes - LHR
C - Ealing Broadway - West Ealing - Southall - Hayes - LHR

each 2tph - supplemented with the 2tph West Drayton terminators running all stations for more local journeys, and Acton frequency.

Maybe if just 2-3 stops were used and timetabled cleverly, Heathrow Express/T5 trains could also stop at Ealing Broadway, and maybe Hayes or Southall, 2tph each.

 

[Zoe]

each 2tph - supplemented with the 2tph West Drayton terminators running all stations for more local journeys, and Acton frequency.

Maybe if just 2-3 stops were used and timetabled cleverly, Heathrow Express/T5 trains could also stop at Ealing Broadway, and maybe Hayes or Southall, 2tph each.

The West Drayton reversers are peak services. Remember also that it's single track between Heathrow Central and terminal 4. Off peak the service is planned as 6 tph Shenfield to Paddington with 2 of these extended to Maidenhead. There will also be 6 tph Abbey Wood to Paddington with 4 running through to Heathrow. This gives a combined frequency of 12 tph through the central section. There will also be a 2 tph FGW Paddignton to Reading service running on the relief lines and a 2 tph Slough to Reading shuttle also running on the relief lines. Freight also needs to use the relief lines so I doubt there is capacity for much more.

 

[cle]

I don't think either of those last FGW trains will run as envisaged - Reading will be on the Crossrail network by opening, I'm sure.

And 12tph off peak through the centre? That's pitiful! This should also be relieving the Central Line which is busy all day, and weekends (which presumably will have a similar frequency).

 

[Zoe]

And 12tph off peak through the centre? That's pitiful! This should also be relieving the Central Line which is busy all day, and weekends (which presumably will have a similar frequency).

Remember these will be NR sized trains and 12 tph is a train every 5 minutes. Not as bad as you may first think.

 

[cslusarc]

I've always been interested in why there are so many Paddington terminators in the Crossrail plan. To me it has seemed that the Abbey Wood branch is the most expensive, but will it generate enough traffic given that it ends at Abbey Wood and doesn't continue on beyond Dartford into Kent. Even today Dartford only gets even get 10tph off-peak to Central London on the Greenwich Line (2 tph stopping service), North Kent Line (2 tph semi-fast service), Bexleyheath (2 tph semi-fast and 2tph stopping services) and Dartford Loop Lines (2 tph stopping service).