Crossrail Operators

[Brunel]

No room for First Group then...

 

[gordonthemoron]

No room for First Group then...

well, they are a bit strapped for cash at the mo. How on earth did NX get through given their history?

 

[starrymarkb]

What are we discussing? It might be worth explaining

 

[cjohnson]

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/art...hortlist-of-bidders-to-run-crossrail-services

Transport for London (TfL) today announced the names of the companies shortlisted to bid to run Crossrail services.

The bidders are:

Arriva Crossrail Limited
Keolis/Go Ahead
MTR Corporation (Crossrail) Limited
National Express Group PLC

The Invitation to Tender is due to be issued in September and an operator will be appointed at the end of 2014.

The successful train operator will start running the first services from May 2015 between Liverpool Street and Shenfield, taking over the stopping services currently operated by Greater Anglia. The route through Canary Wharf, the City and the West End will open in late 2018, with the full route running in 2019.

Read elsewhere that it was First, RATP and Stagecoach which were unsuccessful.

 

[edwin_m]

well, they are a bit strapped for cash at the mo. How on earth did NX get through given their history?

This is presumably a concession similar to LOROL rather than a franchise where the operator takes the revenue risk. So the financial strength and attitude to risk may be less important than the ability to work with the client and deliver service quality. Judging by their attitude to the bus market, First and Stagecoach appear to prefer the deregulated environment where they no doubt hope to make higher margins.

 

[Eagle]

Interesting to see Arriva and MTR go head-to-head being as they share the concession for LOROL. Although when that was bid for, it was still Laing and MTR, and their competitors were NX, Abellio and Govia. So again it seems First and Stagecoach are not interested in concessions.

 

[bnm]

If FirstGroup and Stagecoach aren't interested in TfL rail concessions why have they bid for them? FirstGroup have bid and failed to make the pre-qualified stage for both Crossrail and DLR. Stagecoach didn't bid for Crossrail but have bid for DLR.

FirstGroup currently run a TfL rail concession - Tramlink.

Elsewhere Stagecoach operate a concession - Sheffield Supertram. They've also previously operated and bid for Manchester Metrolink.

So I don't think it holds that FirstGroup or Stagecoach aren't interested in concessions.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Odd that Abellio, as a partial incumbent, seemingly did not bid.

 

[telstarbox]

If FirstGroup and Stagecoach aren't interested in TfL rail concessions why have they bid for them? FirstGroup have bid and failed to make the pre-qualified stage for both Crossrail and DLR. Stagecoach didn't bid for Crossrail but have bid for DLR.

FirstGroup currently run a TfL rail concession - Tramlink.

Elsewhere Stagecoach operate a concession - Sheffield Supertram. They've also previously operated and bid for Manchester Metrolink.

So I don't think it holds that FirstGroup or Stagecoach aren't interested in concessions.

Never mind all that, what colour will the trains be?

 

[starrymarkb]

LO colours but with Purple Doors I bet

 

[edwin_m]

Elsewhere Stagecoach operate a concession - Sheffield Supertram. They've also previously operated and bid for Manchester Metrolink.

Stagecoach sold on the Metrolink concession to RATP, so obviously weren't interested in keeping it. I don't know the details of the Supertram concession but I suspect in return for taking it off SYPTE's hands they were given a great deal more freedom than they had on Metrolink.

 

[rebmcr]

This is presumably a concession similar to LOROL rather than a franchise where the operator takes the revenue risk.

I wonder if TfL have their eye on Thameslink, so they can slap a roundel on it when FCC's franchise ends?

 

[Deerfold]

Stagecoach sold on the Metrolink concession to RATP, so obviously weren't interested in keeping it. I don't know the details of the Supertram concession but I suspect in return for taking it off SYPTE's hands they were given a great deal more freedom than they had on Metrolink.

They were happy to run Metrolink for 4 years.

I think Stagecoach are happy to sell just about anything on (e.g. their London operations) if someone offers more money than they think they'd make on something otherwise.

It's true that the 27 year concession to operate Supertram makes it worth Stagecoach making a lot of effort along the way.

 

[Eagle]

I wonder if TfL have their eye on Thameslink, so they can slap a roundel on it when FCC's franchise ends?

No, Thameslink/Great Northern is being merged with the South Central franchise (starting September 2014, ending 2022ish). Besides it wouldn't work with TfL being as it operates too many long-distance fast services to places like Bedford, Brighton and (soon) Peterborough and Cambridge.

 

[Sleepy]

:roll: NX noooooooooooooooo !!!
Very surprised Abellio did not bid as current operator ?? Oysterisation not bringing in the cash LST - Shenfield perhaps !

 

[CapitalStar378]

I'm surprised that Arriva/MTR didn't submit a joint bid. That would have been looked upon very favourably by TfL surely?

Can't believe NX would win it either.

 

[W230]

Can't believe NX would win it either.

The evening Standard was "bigging up" NX yesterday, describing them as the only British company of the four to make it this far and suggesting that they would be best for the job.

It would have been nice if they had have referenced NX's "superb" record with East Coast or in East Anglia. Saying that, I do believe they run C2C without too many problems, so maybe they're better than they were!

 

[gordonthemoron]

or maybe C2C is too small for them to make a mess of?

 

[kieron]

Does anyone know why the franchise starts in May 2015? Greater Anglia's franchise runs until October 2016, and Crossrail won't (as per the article) have any new trains until May 2017, or new track until 2018.

And is the Crossrail concession expected to have sole use of the new tunnels, or will other operators provide longer distance services through central London?

 

[gordonthemoron]

If Crossrail are running 24 tph, I doubt there's space for anymore services

 

[LexyBoy]

Would I be right in thinking that, from the passengers POV, there should be much less difference between poor- and well-performing companies running a concession than would be the case for a traditional franchise? The difference should be in their financial performance, unless I've misunderstood.

 

[Eagle]

The evening Standard was "bigging up" NX yesterday, describing them as the only British company of the four to make it this far and suggesting that they would be best for the job.

Last I checked, Arriva Rail were based in Sunderland...

 

[W230]

Last I checked, Arriva Rail were based in Sunderland...

Only repeating what the Evening Standard stated. We've had many a discussion on the inaccuracies of journalists on this forum!

 

[Eagle]

Well Arriva is a longstanding British company which in recent years has been bought out by a German-based multinational conglomerate... what else could that description apply to?

Oh yes, Derby Works, which according to the press is definitely British and should deinitely get all the new rolling stock orders. :roll:

 

[edwin_m]

If Crossrail are running 24 tph, I doubt there's space for anymore services

I'm open to correction on this but I believe the central section doesn't count as part of the national network and therefore the rules on open access don't apply.

 

[Eagle]

I'm open to correction on this but I believe the central section doesn't count as part of the national network and therefore the rules on open access don't apply.

I believe this is true. The same goes for the ELL (between Dalston and New Cross Gate/Silwood Junction).

 

[edwin_m]

Would I be right in thinking that, from the passengers POV, there should be much less difference between a poor- and well-performing companies running a concession than a traditional franchise? The difference should be in their financial performance, unless I've misunderstood.

This ought to be true.

In a "traditional" franchise the company takes the revenue risk. If revenue is less than they planned for, often for reasons out of their control, they are partially compensated via cap and collar but have to make up the shortfall by cost cutting or take the hit on the balance sheets. As most of a franchise's costs are fixed, the cuts will fall disproportionately on areas the customer notices, like keeping the trains in good condition and providing more customer service staff. While poor performance in these area will reduce customer satisfaction, on a commuter franchise most of them have no alternative so will carry on paying. Alternatively they might decide that the penalties (money and reputation) for defaulting on the franchise are less than the costs of sticking with it, and hand back the keys as NX did on East Coast.

In a concession the company agrees to provide a fixed service in return for a fixed fee, which is reduced if various performance and service quality targets are missed. Hence the letting body (TfL in this case) keeps all the revenue and also gets to specify exactly what they want. It is also easier to change the specification part way through, as rates will have been agreed in advance for such things as extra mileage or more trains in the fleet. The downside is that the public sector takes the whole of the hit if ridership falls short of expectations.

If the contract has been set up properly the quality levels will be attainable most of the time and the penalties for failure will be large enough that it is cheaper for the concessionaire to fix most of the problems quickly rather than taking no action and continuing to pay out. Hence the performance of a concession should be more consistent from a passenger's point of view - and the company operating it should be making a small but predictable profit. There is still the risk of the concession holder handing back the keys or going bust if they have miscalculated on cost, but this is much less than on a franchise because a franchise holder is exposed to much larger uncertainties on the revenue side.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Last I checked, Arriva Rail were based in Sunderland...

owned by DB though are they not?

 

[gordonthemoron]

owned by DB though are they not?

perhaps they should rename Arriva UK, MB (Mackem Bahn)?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

owned by DB though are they not?

And the newspaper making the "British" point is largely owned by a couple of Russians. Kettle, pot?