Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

[matt_world2004]

If they are opening it in December they may as well push it to the network rail timetable change date for publicity reasons if anything else

 

[Basil Jet]

They have also said the next stage is 'Autumn' but there's a weekend closure on 29/30th October - meaning next stage wouldn't open until November at the earliest. That's pushing the definition of Autumn!!

Not at all... Autumn has always lasted from the September equinox until the day before the December solstice.

 

[Taunton]

I’m sure it’s been explained to you before; but to reiterate.

Westbourne Park has to be capable of turning the full train service in the event Elizabeth Line trains cannot access the NR lines west of Paddington.

That means theoretically turning 24tph, with no ability to change crews etc in the process to speed it up.

That is why auto reverse is needed for 24tph.

No, I'm afraid it hasn't been explained to me. If the service suddenly cannot run through the last place that's going to be the critical point would be the three reversing sidings. It's going to be on the westbound Crossrail platform at Paddington, unexpectedly having to tip out whole trainloads every 2.5 minutes - that's not going to happen, and it's a fiction to pretend that it would.

I also have my doubts about the auto-reverse that was meant to be working at the 2018 opening, if it still can't be relied on to work as we go into 2023 (notwithstanding it's worked at Bank DLR for the last quarter-century), then that doesn't give great hope.

As I described far above, when I encountered the closure at the other end of the line, at Abbey Wood, notwithstanding all the supposed years of training, and actually a fairly light load, it was headless chickens mode at Custom House, staff, PA announcements and train describer all at variance with one another, and took about 10 minutes for just one train to be reversed at the platform back into the core (and still I think took some wrong-way passengers back with it).

If the service suddenly cannot be run west of Paddington, we all know what will happen - instantly, some trains parked up at Abbey Wood, some Shenfields diverted to Liverpool Street, and still trains backed up at each station back from Paddington.

 

[swt_passenger]

Autumn officially ends at about 7 or 8 November using the traditional Chinese definition, so it's still in proper autumn if it is done early November.

Funnily enough we don’t use traditional Chinese, try the 21st December for our end of autumn.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Funnily enough we don’t use traditional Chinese, try the 21st December for our end of autumn.

Traditional seasonal dates are ambiguous - eg astronomical and meteorological practice is at variance in many places (including in Britain). Then there are specific cultural definitions too. There isn't one definitive answer. (Annoyingly.)

 

[AM9]

Traditional seasonal dates are ambiguous - eg astronomical and meteorological practice is at variance in many places (including in Britain). Then there are specific cultural definitions too. There isn't one definitive answer. (Annoyingly.)

Given the UK's obsession with weather, I've always regarded the meteorological months as the the most appropriate definition. The unscientific way of defing the first day of summer on midsummer's day is a bit daft anyway.

 

[Steddenm]

Given the UK's obsession with weather, I've always regarded the meteorological months as the the most appropriate definition. The unscientific way of defing the first day of summer on midsummer's day is a bit daft anyway.

I think that's more of a Travel South Yorkshire thing.

Such as

Meadowhall Interchange
Rotherham Interchange
Doncaster Interchange
Sheffield Interchange

(The latter two being actually bus stations connected ish to the rail station)

 

[43066]

Autumn officially ends at about 7 or 8 November using the traditional Chinese definition, so it's still in proper autumn if it is done early November.

Why do you keep banging on about what happens in China/HK? It’s generally of scant relevance to the UK. Perhaps you should view this forum as a chance to deepen your knowledge of UK railway custom and practice, in the abstract. It seems to me there’s little to be gained by constantly benchmarking the UK against a system which is clearly very different, often to the point of irrelevance, which few other users will have knowledge of.

Given the UK's obsession with weather, I've always regarded the meteorological months as the the most appropriate definition. The unscientific way of defing the first day of summer on midsummer's day is a bit daft anyway.

Agreed - meteorological months seems by far the most logical system.

 

[DC1989]

Going wildy off topic but anyone going around on 20th December saying this is Autumn is a madman!!

 

[43096]

Autumn officially ends at about 7 or 8 November using the traditional Chinese definition, so it's still in proper autumn if it is done early November.

Surprisingly we tend not to use traditional Chinese seasons in London.

Some may use the equinoxes and longest/shortest days to divide the seasons. Personally I work on the basis of:
Spring - March, April, May
Summer - June, July, August
Autumn - September, October, November
Winter - December, January, February

But as one of the “Informed Sources” laws says, never trust schedules based on the seasons.

 

[nlogax]

Back on topic, I got to the platform Tottenham Court Road to get an eastbound train early yesterday only to discover an indicated 15 minute gap until the next service. A minute later a train pulled in full of passengers and so I boarded, all while the platform screens indicated 'train passing through not in service' or somesuch. Alighted at Liverpool St where the displays again had this message. Anyone else seen this?

 

[matt_world2004]

Back on topic, I got to the platform Tottenham Court Road to get an eastbound train early yesterday only to discover an indicated 15 minute gap until the next service. A minute later a train pulled in full of passengers and so I boarded, all while the platform screens indicated 'train passing through not in service' or somesuch. Alighted at Liverpool St where the displays again had this message. Anyone else seen this?

The displays were faulty yesterday showing most trains as out of service.

I noticed at some stations it was advising people "This train is out of service please stay away from the platform edge" which I found a little bizarre considering there are platform edge doors

 

[nlogax]

The displays were faulty yesterday showing most trains as out of service.

Ah thank you, it did confuse me for a while.

 

[talldave]

The displays were faulty yesterday showing most trains as out of service.

I noticed at some stations it was advising people "This train is out of service please stay away from the platform edge" which I found a little bizarre considering there are platform edge doors

Eek, another use case they left out the specification?? Shouldn’t take more than 18 months to roll out a "station_has_doors" flag in the code.

 

[trebor79]

On an other note I reckon journey times from Liverpool Street High Level to Paddington H&C Little Venice exit is just as quick using the Circle Line and H&C. The H&C platforms are closer at both stations - where the long walk to and from Elizabeth line platforms negates the improved travel time. The real difference will come when you can come in from the GEML without changing at Liverpool Street high level. That will be a huge game changer from the GEML side. As will supposedly through running from the west side into the core.

I don't think so. I was in London on Tuesday so took a detour to ride both ways between Liverpool St and Paddington, as it's a journey I do fairly often.
Whilst it's a longer walk to the Crossrail platforms than Circle line at Liv St, it's hardly a long way. Board and exit towards the rear of the train and at Paddington straight up the escalators, through the gate, turn left and you're on the main concourse. That's a much quicker walk than either crossing Praed Street or trudging over the footbridge.
It's a *much* quicker, quieter and more pleasant journey on Crossrail too.

On the other hand, although in Theory the frequency of Circle line + H&C works out as every five minutes, this is not always the case in reality.

Indeed. On more than one occasion I've waited for more than 15 minutes for a train, and then had to bail onto the deep tube en route due to the journey being so ridiculously slow at times that I've been in serious danger of missing my connection despite the 1 hour connection time allowed for in my itinerary.

Same here; Now that Crossrail is open I will never use the Sub Surface route between Paddington and Liverpool St again, ever;

Ditto. I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't use Crossrail for this transfer in future. It's a superb piece of infrastructure, very pleasant to use and far quicker than the alternatives, even if the walk at Liverpool Street is a couple of minutes longer.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

Concerning auto reverse, I was reading about it here

It does seem to me a bit risky having a train run with no one in the cab watching for e.g. obstructions on the track, issues with points etc. while the driver moves to the other cab.
Do they have say CCTV in these areas so perhaps the control centre or someone can be watching just in case of problems?

 

[stuu]

Concerning auto reverse, I was reading about it here

It does seem to me a bit risky having a train run with no one in the cab watching for e.g. obstructions on the track, issues with points etc. while the driver moves to the other cab.
Do they have say CCTV in these areas so perhaps the control centre or someone can be watching just in case of problems?

There are dozens of fully automated railways in the world, including several in the USA

 

[Bald Rick]

It does seem to me a bit risky having a train run with no one in the cab watching for e.g. obstructions on the track, issues with points etc.

seems to work fine on the DLR and various Metro systems elsewhere in the world, including the JFK airtrain.

 

[trebor79]

Concerning auto reverse, I was reading about it here

It does seem to me a bit risky having a train run with no one in the cab watching for e.g. obstructions on the track, issues with points etc. while the driver moves to the other cab.
Do they have say CCTV in these areas so perhaps the control centre or someone can be watching just in case of problems?

I don't see how there's much risk at all. Points have detection built in to ensure they are in the correct position before the train is allowed to move over them. And what's the driver going to do anyway at 125mph and spots an issue with points??

 

[FormerBritInMe]

seems to work fine on the DLR and various Metro systems elsewhere in the world, including the JFK airtrain.

That's true I had forgotten about the DLR. Of course all these systems are primarily elevated or in tunnels which makes the presence of trespassers unlikely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2022 ==

I don't see how there's much risk at all. Points have detection built in to ensure they are in the correct position before the train is allowed to move over them. And what's the driver going to do anyway at 125mph and spots an issue with points??

Hopefully they are not moving at 125 mph when reversing the train
So I guess if all of this is old hat, why are there issues getting the auto reverse to work?

 

[swt_passenger]

That's true I had forgotten about the DLR. Of course all these systems are primarily elevated or in tunnels which makes the presence of trespassers unlikely.

The turnback area at Westbourne Park is fairly difficult to get to for a trespasser, although clearly not impossible, the whole rail corridor is in a bit of an enclosed area anyway, but the Crossrail bit is also fully fenced off from the rest of the mainline tracks except for the obvious openings where the running tracks to the GW pass through.

 

[miklcct]

Ditto. I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't use Crossrail for this transfer in future. It's a superb piece of infrastructure, very pleasant to use and far quicker than the alternatives, even if the walk at Liverpool Street is a couple of minutes longer.

I will still stay with the sub surface line for transfer between Farringdon and Liverpool Street, and possibly between Farringdon and Paddington as well.

The transfer at Farringdon between Thameslink and the sub surface lines is very easy.

 

[ijmad]

No, I'm afraid it hasn't been explained to me. If the service suddenly cannot run through the last place that's going to be the critical point would be the three reversing sidings. It's going to be on the westbound Crossrail platform at Paddington, unexpectedly having to tip out whole trainloads every 2.5 minutes - that's not going to happen, and it's a fiction to pretend that it would.

They could empty out some trains at Tottenham Court Road (or Bond Street) and run ECS into Paddington. They did this for an hour during the fire alarm on opening day quite effectively.

 

[kevin_roche]

So I guess if all of this is old hat, why are there issues getting the auto reverse to work?

On the recent BBC TV programme, the issue was demonstrated.

I belive it is a software bug which causes the onboard software to fail after the auto-reverse is complete and the driver tries to enter the start of the new journey. On the programme, one of the people observing the trial runs at Paddington suggested that if the driver waited a minute after arrival, it might work.

Edit:

Episode 1 at about the 50 minute mark

BBC Two - The 15 Billion Pound Railway, Inside the Elizabeth Line, Episode 1

The final series following the drama behind launching the delayed Elizabeth line railway.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[miklcct]

The minimum connection time of Farringdon is fixed to 8 minutes between Thameslink and Elizabeth line.

 

[tomuk]

The minimum connection time of Farringdon is fixed to 8 minutes between Thameslink and Elizabeth line.

As an athlete I'm sure you can do it quicker than that. Just to confirm the start to stop times from Farringdon to Paddington(Elizabeth Line/Hammersmith & City) are:
Elizabeth Line 7 1/2 minutes
Sub Surface 13 minutes.
Does the extra actual interchange time eat up that 6 minute saving?

 

[miklcct]

As an athlete I'm sure you can do it quicker than that. Just to confirm the start to stop times from Farringdon to Paddington(Elizabeth Line/Hammersmith & City) are:
Elizabeth Line 7 1/2 minutes
Sub Surface 13 minutes.
Does the extra actual interchange time eat up that 6 minute saving?

I tried to do the connection today following navigation app instructions. However I missed the suggested eastbound train in the app off the southbound train after taking the lift down seeing it depart, with the app suggesting a 2-minute connection between trains.

I'd say that a "realistic" time to transfer between trains there is 5 minutes.

 

[Watershed]

The minimum connection time of Farringdon is fixed to 8 minutes between Thameslink and Elizabeth line.

No surprises there; I think that's a much more realistic value.

 

[Acton1991]

Travelling around the network today, it seems like TfL have updated their announcements to exclude the word ‘line’ after Elizabeth. On the Central line today, announcements would say ‘change here for the Circle, District and Elizabeth lines’.

Seems sensible.

 

[Snow1964]

The TfL Board Elizabeth Line committee papers for next weeks meeting are now published

(haven’t yet looked through them as very long), 19 items on the agenda (including the restricted part 2)

Agenda for Elizabeth Line Committee on Thursday 14 July 2022, 10:00 - Modern Council

board.tfl.gov.uk

Strangely TfL seem to have removed the Elizabeth line meeting papers athough still showing the 14th July meeting

Agenda for Elizabeth Line Committee on Thursday 14 July 2022, 10:00 - Modern Council

board.tfl.gov.uk