Crossrail - National Rail or Underground?

[telstarbox]

Will the new Crossrail stations all be National Rail stations rather than 'Underground' stations? I'm thinking in terms of ticketing rather than station management.

If so, will point-to-point fares become available e.g. Gravesend to Bond Street Crossrail rather than Gravesend to Zone 1/Zones 1-6?

How about tickets such as Lewisham - West Hampstead Thameslink Route: Not Underground (which can be used via the National Rail Thameslink route) - will there be something similar like Ealing Broadway - Ilford Route: Not Underground?

(Apologies if it's too early to ask questions like this!)

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think they'll have the same ticketing arrangements as London Overground stations - they'll have CRS codes, and through tickets to the mythical world outside the zones, but there won't be point-to-point tickets between TfL-run/TfL subsidiary-run stations.

 

[telstarbox]

I think they'll have the same ticketing arrangements as London Overground stations - they'll have CRS codes, and through tickets to the mythical world outside the zones, but there won't be point-to-point tickets between TfL-run/TfL subsidiary-run stations.

...because a ticket between two TfL stations would be need to be consistent into the zonal system anyway?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I don't think seasons need to be

 

[bicbasher]

I won't be surprised to see NR short codes for the Crossrail stations in the core, where we could see Bond Street as ZBS etc for day singles and returns.

Reading will be an interesting one in the future. For example the current Forest Hill to Reading LONDON NOT UND is for interchange using Waterloo East set by SWT, yet another route will be to change at Whitechapel which as Crossrail is technically a NR service could see another ticket being sold in addition to the ANY PERMITTED which includes LU transfer to Paddington set by FGW. However, I expect Oyster will be the cheapest fare for the new ELL/Crossrail route.

 

[PermitToTravel]

ZBS is presently BAKER STREET UND, BOND STREET UND at the moment has code ZBD

I wouldn't be surprised if the only way of paying a TfL-specific fare for a journey like Reading to Forest Hill would be to use PAYG.

 

[34D]

I would also perceive that, rather like LONDON THAMESLINK, that Reading to London Terminals would only be valid as far as Paddington, and ditto Shenfield to London only as far as Liverpool St, with a more expensive ticket to go beyond.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I would also perceive that, rather like LONDON THAMESLINK, that Reading to London Terminals would only be valid as far as Paddington, and ditto Shenfield to London only as far as Liverpool St, with a more expensive ticket to go beyond.

Presumably then, there would be a London Crossrail ticket for stations after Paddington as far as Liverpool Street and vice versa. Hopefully that would be priced between London Terminals and a Travelcard.

Those coming in on Crossrail from outside the Oyster area would need to be able to touch in and out when interchanging to or from Crossrail.

For those outside London only making a to and from journey on the Underground, using Oyster can be cheaper than paying the extra cost for a one day Travelcard.

 

[swt_passenger]

...Those coming in on Crossrail from outside the Oyster area would need to be able to touch in and out when interchanging to or from Crossrail.

They don't generally allow for that now, so I wonder if they'll necessarily change the policy for Crossrail? There are plenty of examples of stations where you could once start/finish an Oyster journey on the platform where the validators were subsequently removed or disconnected, e.g. at London Bridge, Stratford.

 

[34D]

Presumably then, there would be a London Crossrail ticket for stations after Paddington as far as Liverpool Street and vice versa. Hopefully that would be priced between London Terminals and a Travelcard.

In an ideal world, we would have 4452 London Thameslink renamed London Thameslink/CrossRail and journeys from Luton to Tottenham Court Road being allowed - pigs might fly though.

I suspect the reality is TfL fares only for journeys that don't finish at the traditional termini.

 

[LexyBoy]

TfL have removed a lot of point-to-point seasons (leaving only Travelcards) for London Overground routes, I don't see them introducing new point-to-points for Crossrail.

 

[mattdickinson]

According to the GW ITT, the new stations will be run by London Underground, so they probably won't have manned ticket offices.

4.4.10.4 Network Benefits, Smart Ticketing / ITSO / Oyster / CPAY
The Department and TfL have agreed a package of Network Benefits that CTOC will deliver as part of that concession. Bidders should note the obligations that apply to the Franchisee as a result of this agreement. Full details are provided in the data site with some key elements noted here.

all train services operated by CTOC will accept ITSO cards loaded with suitable products and CTOC will participate in and cooperate with the Department / ATOC interoperable smart ticketing schemes;

all train services operated by CTOC will also accept Oyster cards and associated products;

all national rail stations served by CTOC (including those operated by both CTOC4 and Great Western) will be required to retail and load both ITSO and Oyster products; and subject to satisfactory conclusion of the CPAY negotiations covering contactless technology, CTOC will participate in the CPAY agreement.

4
There will be a number of London Underground stations that CTOC will serve that will not be operated by CTOC and so these elements do not apply

 

[Hadders]

I suspect it'll all end up being a bit of a mess!

Looking at what happened on Thameslink we could end up with 'London Crossrail' as a destination to replace 'London Terminals' from places such as Reading, Maidenhead and Slough etc.

Would a 'London Crossrail' ticket be more expensive than the previous London Terminals ticket? Fair enough if it allows me to travel (say) as far as Liverpool Street but why should I pay more if I only want to go to Paddington. Would a ticket from Reading to 'London Crossrail' allow travel into Waterloo?

Then we have season tickets. A commute of Slough-Shenfield (both currently outside the zones) could be viable. Currently there's no season ticket between the two (although you could get a custom one). Will a season ticket be available for a journey such as this. Would the route be Not Underground (as per some of the Thameslink ones) or would it be the same price as the custom with validity across zones 1-6?

Let's hope we don't get a High Speed type debacle with 'plus crossrail' and 'not crossrail' in addition to Any Permitted!

I'm sure these issues are concentrating the minds of those in high places...

 

[aleph_0]

Would just replacing "London Thameslink/Crossrail" with "London Zone 1" be a good idea?

Ok, I understand the idea of London Thameslink ticket, it's just a limited bit of extra validity, with no changing trains etc. and is priced accordingly. But isn't it partly price to obtain passengers who might otherwise buy a travelcard?

If there's going to be a combined London Thameslink/Crossrail ticket, that would give access to most of Zone 1 anyway. If there is a separate "London Crossrail" ticket, then there's just going to be a mess, and I doubt people will need an incentive to use Crossrail instead of LU.

I guess the real problem is how to price such a ticket, and would many "London Zone 1-6" travelcard holders downgrade to it, providing less revenue.

So we would have the option of "Reading-London Zone 1-6", or (cheaper) "Reading-London Zone 1", or (cheaper) "Reading-London Terminals.


Having said this, there might be room for a cheaper ticket encouraging non-use of the HSTs from the western end of crossrail. So maybe offering route crossrail tickets would be a good idea.

 

[swt_passenger]

According to the GW ITT, the new stations will be run by London Underground, so they probably won't have manned ticket offices.

I think you've misinterpreted that. The existing purely 'rail stations' handed over from the present TOCs will be managed by 'CTOC' which is the Crossrail TOC, not London Underground.

However where the Crossrail station is an integral station with an existing LU station, e.g. places like Tottenham Court Rd, then London Underground will manage them.

 

[Deerfold]

I think you've misinterpreted that. The existing purely 'rail stations' handed over from the present TOCs will be managed by 'CTOC' which is the Crossrail TOC, not London Underground.

However where the Crossrail station is an integral station with an existing LU station, e.g. places like Tottenham Court Rd, then London Underground will manage them.

Indeed - so as mattdickinson said, LU will manage the new Crossrail stations.

 

[bicbasher]

The way I interpret it with regards to point to point seasons is this.

For example, Reading to Paddington (London Terminals) and Shenfield/Romford to Liverpool Street will continue to sell those types of tickets and offer a full range of NR tickets as FGW/GA will continue to serve those stations. This is why P2P seasons are still on sale from LO stations on the ELL south of New Cross Gate as Southern continue to serve those stations.

Considering TfL's ticketing policy elsewhere on the Overground, it's very likely if a passenger wishes to travel from Reading to Bond Street or Stratford to Tottenham Court Road, the existing travelcard element will still apply for season ticket holders.

As for my Forest Hill observation, I still think post 2018, they will still have various options for travel to Reading. Oyster PAYG certainly won't be valid on the SWT route via Clapham Junction unless SWT agree to allow Oyster on the route into Reading, which leaves those passengers with the Not Via London, London Not Und, Any Permitted or Oyster PAYG via Whitechapel (Canada Water/Bond St) ticket options.

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed - so as mattdickinson said, LU will manage the new Crossrail stations.

Ah I see. I was taking 'new Crossrail stations' to include the whole of the Crossrail route map, rather than just 'newly built' stations...

 

[Altnabreac]

Indeed - so as mattdickinson said, LU will manage the new Crossrail stations.

Although presumably under this logic CTOC rather than LU would manage the Canary Wharf station which is new but not integral to an existing Underground station?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

They don't generally allow for that now, so I wonder if they'll necessarily change the policy for Crossrail?

I was thinking in terms of changing from Underground to FGW and vice versa at Ealing Broadway and being about to split ticket between PAYG Oyster and a National Rail paper ticket. If you are heading for a Zone 2 destination local to Ealing such as Hammersmith, the combination can be a little cheaper than a Travelcard.

If you live outside the Oyster area and your natural route to Central London becomes the CrossRail one, going beyond Paddington or Liverpool Street, will that make your Oyster redundant as you will never be able to use it in a convenient manner?

 

[swt_passenger]

I was thinking in terms of changing from Underground to FGW and vice versa at Ealing Broadway and being about to split ticket between PAYG Oyster and a National Rail paper ticket. If you are heading for a Zone 2 destination local to Ealing such as Hammersmith, the combination can be a little cheaper than a Travelcard.

So was I. What happens at Ealing Broadway today?

It's the same scenario as I mentioned earlier (but using the examples of London Bridge and Stratford). These stations used to have Oyster validators all over the platforms, put there originally to allow people arriving on 'paper' tickets from outside the zones to start an Oyster PAYG journey, and they intentionally removed those validators once Oyster PAYG became generally accepted on National Rail.

AFAICS Crossrail will make no difference to this problem on its own.

 

[PermitToTravel]

IIRC Ealing retains its on-platform validators.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

So was I. What happens at Ealing Broadway today?

Ealing Broadway station has four through National Rail platforms and five terminating Underground platforms. These really are all part of the same station and share barriers to the street and ticket office.

It's fifteen months since I last used it, but between the terminal and through platforms, there are, or were, Oyster readers so that you could touch in or out if not using Oyster on fGW local services, the Oyster ticketing on which only extends as far as West Drayton. When heading into London, platform 4 is step free access between National Rail and the Underground.

 

[cuccir]

So we would have the option of "Reading-London Zone 1-6", or (cheaper) "Reading-London Zone 1", or (cheaper) "Reading-London Terminals.

This would be the most straightforward option!