Crossrail Gaps & Rolling Stock

[swt_passenger]

4 tph peak but the ORR rejected 2 of the paths off peak.

So that will be available on ORR's webiste then? Have you a link?

 

[Zoe]

So that will be available on ORR's webiste then? Have you a link?

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.9250

Here is the decision. There is a list somewhere of the paths but I can't find it at this time.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks very much...

 

[Zoe]

The Crossrail services are listed in schedule 1 of this document: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ptions/crossrail/crossrail objective test.pdf

 

[Minstral25]

However a couple of years after Thameslink KO2 is running, won't Thameslink to Crossrail interchanges at Farringdon make many current train/tube journeys redundant - they are planning for Farringdon to be heaving with interchanges all day? For a whole load of passengers off the GN, and all those additional service from SN and SE origins, Farringdon could easily become their preferred 'London Terminus' for transfer onto Crossrail for both its own stations and onward transfer from Liverpool St or Paddington.

I'd also expect the new Blackfriars south bank entrance to popularise the station for tourists, and the improved Blackfriars underground station will possibly change travel patterns slightly when it reopens this December.

I expect a lot from north of London will transfer onto Crossrail and a small element of tourist traffic - but there are no big tourist generators on the route like Oxford Street.

From the south for Canary Wharf you would get off at London Bridge and use the Jubilee and for the City you would do the same and walk or use the Northern.

The one genuine busy use of the Farringdon interchange from the South is for Heathrow which will create traffic but not enough to create Central Line type overcrowding.

 

[LE Greys]

I expect a lot from north of London will transfer onto Crossrail and a small element of tourist traffic - but there are no big tourist generators on the route like Oxford Street.

From the south for Canary Wharf you would get off at London Bridge and use the Jubilee and for the City you would do the same and walk or use the Northern.

The one genuine busy use of the Farringdon interchange from the South is for Heathrow which will create traffic but not enough to create Central Line type overcrowding.

Hmm, I'd probably use Farringdon for that as well once GN services start using Thameslink. It's a lot more convenient than the Circle, although not as interesting.

I'd expect Bond Street to generate a lot of day-trip traffic for shoppers, with Tottenham Court Road being used as a major exchange for various other lines to cut out a double-change.

There's a good chance that Crossrail will damage Heathrow Express badly. Why change at Paddington and pay huge ammounts of money when you can travel right through on the same train. Yes, it's a bit slower, but factoring in the change at Paddington reduces that.

Incidentally, I've gone right through on Thameslink hundreds of times, used to do KXT-London Bridge a lot once.

 

[anthony263]

Another point is that why woudlbusiness people arriving at Heathrow want to pay a lot of money to travel on HEX t o paddington then pay again to get a crossrail service to the city when they could just get a crossrail service, which probably wouldnt take any longer if you consider the time taken to get from the HEX to crossrail and possibly get another tickets etc

 

[Rational Plan]

Another point is that why woudlbusiness people arriving at Heathrow want to pay a lot of money to travel on HEX t o paddington then pay again to get a crossrail service to the city when they could just get a crossrail service, which probably wouldnt take any longer if you consider the time taken to get from the HEX to crossrail and possibly get another tickets etc

The problem at the moment is the surcharge BAA want for trains to use it's tunnel. It's very expensive compared to the tube. If this does not change they will still require a surcharge on your oyster card. They need to be bought out so fare integration can happen. It will have to come down to TFL as they want the fare integration.

 

[Nym]

Or perhaps TfL can place a compulsary purchase order on the tunnels?

Or just threaten to remove all available paths from Heathrow Express if they refuse to cooperate at a reasonable rate?

 

[anthony263]

Or perhaps TfL can place a compulsary purchase order on the tunnels?

Or just threaten to remove all available paths from Heathrow Express if they refuse to cooperate at a reasonable rate?

I thought only Network rail/ORR could do that as it is the mainline?

As for the tunnels, hopefully BAA will see some sense by the time crossrail starts (Pity construction didnt start back in the 1990's it would have been very usefull next year during the 2012 olympics)

Besides i am sure if BAA decided to build a western link to the airport maybe they could run a semi fast service on the relief lines from Reading providing places such as Maidenhead & Slough with a raillink to Heathrow Airport, I am not sure how many people travel by train to Paddington, Hayes & Harlington to get a the Heathrow express/connect services buch this might help reduce some of teh overcrowding on services to/from Paddington.

It might also be a good idea to run some of the services beyond Reading, to Oxford, Newbury etc

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

And why reduce the Abbey Wood branch to 6 tph from 12 tph as planned?

If you reduce the number of trains to Abbey Wood you also reduce the number to Canary Wharf. No way that's going to be popular with the City, who are paying for a good proportion of the project.

 

[Rhydgaled]

There's been quite a bit of talk about a western access to Heathrow so passengers don't need to go into Paddington then come back out on the Heathrow Express. In my opinion the best way to use this would be to extend the Heathrow Express/Connect Crossrail trains to Reading after Heathrow, therefore passengers from the west can change at Reading for Heathrow, avoiding the need to run extra trains from the west to Heathrow or add more stops to existing services from the west.

 

[anthony263]

There's been quite a bit of talk about a western access to Heathrow so passengers don't need to go into Paddington then come back out on the Heathrow Express. In my opinion the best way to use this would be to extend the Heathrow Express/Connect Crossrail trains to Reading after Heathrow, therefore passengers from the west can change at Reading for Heathrow, avoiding the need to run extra trains from the west to Heathrow or add more stops to existing services from the west.

Once crossrail is up and running i would get ride of the Heathrow express completely and use the 4 paths freed up to run some additional services between London Paddington & Reading particulary during the peaks which should help somewhat with overcrowding.

i would run at least a half hourly semi stopping services from Reading using the relief lines if a western link to Heathrow airport is built with trains serving Maidenhead, Slough etc.

 

[SwindonPkwy]

Since BAA cancelled Airtrack, the Heathrow western access utilising Crossrail through trains from Reading has to happen. I think it is a question of when not if funding can be found.

 

[swt_passenger]

Once crossrail is up and running i would get ride of the Heathrow express completely and use the 4 paths freed up to run some additional services between London Paddington & Reading particulary during the peaks which should help somewhat with overcrowding.

i would run at least a half hourly semi stopping services from Reading using the relief lines if a western link to Heathrow airport is built with trains serving Maidenhead, Slough etc.

The London and SE RUS already includes your initial proposals, as discussed earlier in the thread...

 

[Nym]

I don't think through services would be appropriate via Heathrow, it would take just too long. Using some of the paths from services dropping into Heathrow from Paddington to run 3 or 4tph Reading - Heathrow would be much more appropriate.

Proberbly be sensible to extend some of these to Oxford, Newbury or even Swindon / Bristol as an all stations service.

 

[anthony263]

I don't think through services would be appropriate via Heathrow, it would take just too long. Using some of the paths from services dropping into Heathrow from Paddington to run 3 or 4tph Reading - Heathrow would be much more appropriate.

Proberbly be sensible to extend some of these to Oxford, Newbury or even Swindon / Bristol as an all stations service.

I agree about not diverting the high speed services into Heathrow as it will add a lot of time to the journeys.

Could we say extend the Newbury stopper service and 1 stopper from Oxford the have a half hourly service calling at Maidenhead, Slough etc.

By the way do any crosscountry workings still terminate at Reading? if they are fitted with pantograph car's could some of them be extended to Heathrow?

 

[Nym]

I agree about not diverting the high speed services into Heathrow as it will add a lot of time to the journeys.

Could we say extend the Newbury stopper service and 1 stopper from Oxford the have a half hourly service calling at Maidenhead, Slough etc.

By the way do any crosscountry workings still terminate at Reading? if they are fitted with pantograph car's could some of them be extended to Heathrow?

XC Into heathrow makes very good sense. If XC gained some IEPs or the 220 and 221 and 222 fleet where electrodieseled and the Bi Mode IEP idea was scrapped, then XC Readings going on to Heathrow would make very nice sense.

What I was getting at is that rather than running via Heathrow (like Manchester - Crewe via Manchester Airport) simply run services into Heathrow to terminate from Reading or beyond. Say 1tph from Newbury, 1tph from Oxford, 1tph XC and 2tph stoppers from Reading?

The XC as an extention and other services as new services (there should be paths available west of airport junction)

 

[Buttsy]

The 1tph from Newbury could be the local stopper that currently terminates at Reading.

 

[anthony263]

The 1tph from Newbury could be the local stopper that currently terminates at Reading.

Thats what i was sugesting, pity the wires were not going to Westbury as i think a hourly Westbury - Bedwyn - Newbury - Reading - Heathrow Airport service would be great.

Another good idea if the East-West rail is built and wired how about a Milton Keynes - Oxford - Reading - Heathrow Aiport service

 

[LexyBoy]

XC Into heathrow makes very good sense. If XC gained some IEPs or the 220 and 221 and 222 fleet where electrodieseled and the Bi Mode IEP idea was scrapped, then XC Readings going on to Heathrow would make very nice sense.

It very much makes sense as a route, however it would require a considerable increase in capacity on XC over and above what it requires to alleviate existing overcrowding.

Also, would a bi-mode unit be allowed into underground sections like Heathrow? I'd think that even with the diesels idling there would be sufficient exhaust fumes to be an issue.

 

[swt_passenger]

Also, would a bi-mode unit be allowed into underground sections like Heathrow? I'd think that even with the diesels idling there would be sufficient exhaust fumes to be an issue.

A bi-mode would be on AC only within the Heathrow tunnels, and with the GWML electrified by then a new branch would almost certainly be 25kV as well.

So why would the diesel engines be involved at all?

 

[cle]

Don't shoot me - but might XC to Heathrow be a decent compromise for not introducing a Heathrow spur/diversion to HS2?

If 2tph could be pathed towards Birmingham via Reading and Oxford, a lot of people would be able to connect from the South and Southwest into Heathrow. Panto cars would be a must - they could run electric all the way from Oxford to Heathrow by then!

 

[Buttsy]

And from Coventry north westwards. I have a grand idea, electrify Oxford-Coventry too!

 

[Nym]

Don't shoot me - but might XC to Heathrow be a decent compromise for not introducing a Heathrow spur/diversion to HS2?

If 2tph could be pathed towards Birmingham via Reading and Oxford, a lot of people would be able to connect from the South and Southwest into Heathrow. Panto cars would be a must - they could run electric all the way from Oxford to Heathrow by then!

I won't shoot you but they would serve different markets.

The locals and XC would be for local markets, whereas the HS2 link would be for passengers from Birmingham and Manchester, the latter removing domestic flights if the services are well implemented (with check in available at HS2 stations, and checked luggage carried on the trains in a goods wagon, and then taken by baggage handlers throughout the airport, and have it integrated fully with baggage systems at both ends)

So as a passenger would see it...

BA Check In at Rail Terminal at Manchester, checked all the way to their final destination, eg JFK.

Walk off the train an hour later at Heathrow Rail, on a few moving walkways though transfer security (that exists anyway) and into Terminal 5.

Baggage is loaded onto high speed luggage belts linked into T5 and the CTA, possibly onto T4 aswell, but it would need looking into, theres already plans for a high speed belt between T3 (For the CTA) and T5.

Personally, I'd also like to see HS2 continue and terminate at Gatwick, not nesseserally at HSRail speeds, but within 20 - 30mins journey time, and have services terminate at Gatwick rather than Heathrow, providing ?4tph between the two airports, again, linked in with baggage systems for flight transfers.

And in relation to bi-modes in T5, T4 and CTA stations, the engines will be off, not idle...

 

[LexyBoy]

A bi-mode would be on AC only within the Heathrow tunnels, and with the GWML electrified by then a new branch would almost certainly be 25kV as well.

So why would the diesel engines be involved at all?

It's my understanding that with a bi-mode unit the diesels would be left to idle all the time the unit is running to avoid the wear and reliability issues associated with frequently starting or stopping the engines. I may have got the wrong end of the stick of course!

If it were a problem then Oxford-Coventry could be wired and pure electric trains run Manchester-Heathrow, taking over from the XC Reading terminators.

 

[anthony263]

I personally agree with wiring Oxford - Coventry and perhaps Bassingtoke - Reading, i wonder how many voyagers could then be replaced with new dual voltage EMU's?

 

[Nym]

If it where Oxford - Coventry, at my reconing, 8, 1tph on a 4 hour end to end.

If Basingstoke where done as 25KV OHL (axle counters needed for signalling systems as Bournmouth would be dual voltage track) and the IEP enabled for 3rd Rail 750V and 25KV OHL (or whatever we end up using is) then you're looking possibly at a few more, but it would need the rest of the network doing too.

I'd say that Oxford - Coventry should be first on the XC Network, but the MML needs doing first, and if the MML is done, then Birmingham - Tamworth - Derby makes more sense too.

 

[Buttsy]

I'd say that Oxford - Coventry should be first on the XC Network, but the MML needs doing first, and if the MML is done, then Birmingham - Tamworth - Derby makes more sense too.

While I agree that the MML should be done first, however, if there is the usual hiatus after a big electrification scheme, then the sensible action is to do smaller 'fill-in' schemes to keep the electrification team together. To this end, would also suggest Kirkham - Blackpool South.

If there is a sensible plan, MML and Cardiff Valleys are next, but it'll take 5 years after then end of one scheme before another starts...

 

[Nym]

While I agree that the MML should be done first, however, if there is the usual hiatus after a big electrification scheme, then the sensible action is to do smaller 'fill-in' schemes to keep the electrification team together. To this end, would also suggest Kirkham - Blackpool South.

If there is a sensible plan, MML and Cardiff Valleys are next, but it'll take 5 years after then end of one scheme before another starts...

Unfortunatly it does, but it shouldn't, the next scheme should be ready to start when the first finishes, and flow into eachother, idealy we'd have two electrification teams working throughout the country.

"Suburban" and "Mainline"
The first team will move on from the Lancs Triangle onto the Cardiff Valleys and/or Manchester Eastern Lines.
The latter would move from the Great Western and then onto the Midland Mainline, then from the Midland Mainline onto the Cross Country Infill, extentions of the GW Electrification or the TPE Network.