Crossrail Extension to Ebbsfleet

[NorthKent1989]

It's looking likely that this extension could very well go ahead some time in the early 2020s and Ebbsfleet seems to be the ultimate terminal, kinda makes sense considering how Abbey Wood has been rebuilt.

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1...p-forward-as-secretary-of-state-pays-a-visit/

Just as I suspected, Crossrail will share tracks with North Kent line trains up to Dartford then will be four tracks to Ebbsfleet so I guess the class 345's probably have 3rd rail shoes, unless there'll be overhead electrification east of Abbey Wood.

This is excellent news for Belvedere and Erith, which hopefully will soon be within reach of The Docklands, City & West End on one line, as well as Heathrow & Reading plus one interchange at Whitechapel for Stratford.

It seems that the North Kent & Greenwich lines are getting more boosted, I feel sorry for the Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines.

 

[Barn]

Don't feel too sorry for the Bexleyheath line - it's getting a 10tph peak service in the new franchise and continued services to Charing Cross.

If Crossrail is extended, would it make sense to put up OLE east of Abbey Wood, terminate the Southeastern services there and then serve Belvedere, Erith etc with Crossrail services and Thameslink 700s in AC mode?

 

[Chester1]

I can't see this happening anytime soon. The article is local newspaper rubbish that undermines itself by saying Crossrail was not even discussed. What would be the journey time from Ebbsfleet to central London? It would be competing against HS1 services and would need a large amount of intermediate traffic to make financial sense. Any extensions to Crossrail will have to wait until demand has been reviewed after a year or two of services.

 

[JonathanH]

I can't see this happening anytime soon. The article is local newspaper rubbish that undermines itself by saying Crossrail was not even discussed. What would be the journey time from Ebbsfleet to central London? It would be competing against HS1 services and would need a large amount of intermediate traffic to make financial sense. Any extensions to Crossrail will have to wait until demand has been reviewed after a year or two of services.

What about the journey time from Dartford and Ebbsfleet to Canary Wharf? Ebbsfleet is simply a convenient place to reverse trains because there isn't capacity to do anything with Dartford station and could offer a quicker journey time from 'Deep Kent' changing off HS1 to Canary Wharf than changing twice at Stratford International and Stratford.

However the point is valid that the initial loadings need to be considered first before extensions.

 

[IainG81]

I can see it going beyond Abbey Wood eventually weather it's worth going to Ebbsfleet when there's a fast service to London already. I think Dartford certainly possible connects up with Kent better.

Have also seen Stains suggested eventually in the West.

 

[IainG81]

From what I've seen at Abbey Wood the track goes on so would be easy to link up with the line and service to continue beyond Abbey Wood

 

[edwin_m]

Just as I suspected, Crossrail will share tracks with North Kent line trains up to Dartford then will be four tracks to Ebbsfleet so I guess the class 345's probably have 3rd rail shoes, unless there'll be overhead electrification east of Abbey Wood.

They don't carry them now but were specified to allow third rail capability to be fitted later if needed.

From what I've seen at Abbey Wood the track goes on so would be easy to link up with the line and service to continue beyond Abbey Wood

This unfortunately now involves a flat junction, unlike the original design where the existing Down line was moved north of the portal so Crossrail was the middle two tracks (which would also have allowed cross platform interchange). I wonder if the existing service via Woolwich might be turned back at Abbey Wood instead.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I cant see SE trains terminating at Abbey Wood, the link between Medway & SE London Thameside is needed, it has been mentioned that SE Trains & Crossrail will share tracks to Dartford before 4 tracks will commence east of Dartford, so SE (or Thameslink) will continue East of Swanscombe for a long time to come, if anything I think that SE Trains will run fast between Abbey Wood & Gravesend, calling only at Dartford & Greenhithe.

Plus wasn't it mentioned that Maidstone West services will continue beyond Strood through to the North Kent line in the peaks, potentially all day?

Are there plans for the NK to go 10tph?

 

[Hophead]

So, the council leader said how nice it would be if Crossrail were to run to Ebbsfleet; the local paper reported as much; the Minister (who has no direct responsibility for transport) keeps schtum.

Not much to see here.

Having said that, a rail link from Dartford to Ebbsfleet would be interesting, giving a far easier connection from South-East London onto Eurostar.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not sure where you get the 'share existing tracks' bit from. That simply wouldn't work, particularly from Slade Green to Dartford. Unless of course Crossrail trains replaced the SE services, and what would be the point in that?

This proposal is not at all straightforward. And therefore not at all cheap. And notably, not very much in London. See Met Line extension to Watford for something similar, but about 1/10th the size.

 

[ScotGG]

Agreed. The construction of the new station makes extension on separate lines very difficult. Sharing lines is also far from easy. It's already used by 8-10 paths an hour before Crossrail is added.

They could replace some but what do you cut, and does that cut trains past Abbey Wood via Woolwich, Charlton and Greenwich, which are all in line for massive housing growth?

No easy answers. If the station had been built differently then maybe but now? I don't see it in 20 years

 

[edwin_m]

Agreed. The construction of the new station makes extension on separate lines very difficult. Sharing lines is also far from easy. It's already used by 8-10 paths an hour before Crossrail is added.

They could replace some but what do you cut, and does that cut trains past Abbey Wood via Woolwich, Charlton and Greenwich, which are all in line for massive housing growth?

No easy answers. If the station had been built differently then maybe but now? I don't see it in 20 years

My thought was that some or all of the trains from London via Greenwich could terminate at Abbey Wood with Crossrail providing the service onward to Dartford and beyond. The most significant losers would be passengers travelling between the three stations to the east of Abbey Wood to/from a Southern terminus and for whom Crossrail's inner London stations would not be convenient, or local journeys passing through Abbey Wood. These passengers would face a change at Abbey Wood, which while not cross-platform is designed for easy change of train. Dartford would lose one of its three routes to Southern termini, but would gain a Crossrail service.

Turning 10TPH round in two platforms is risky, but if Crossrail did not terminate the layout to the east could be re-arranged to create some turnback sidings for the service via Greenwich.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Personally I would prefer 10tph on the NK line, than Crossrail if given the choice.

Has anything more been said on potential Maidstone West through services or is that not going to happen for another few years?

Maidstone for a county town has a poor service currently so any additional connections to London (and suburban towns and interchanges) would be most welcome down there

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Don't feel too sorry for the Bexleyheath line - it's getting a 10tph peak service in the new franchise and continued services to Charing Cross.

If Crossrail is extended, would it make sense to put up OLE east of Abbey Wood, terminate the Southeastern services there and then serve Belvedere, Erith etc with Crossrail services and Thameslink 700s in AC mode?

This is a huge if, isn't it. I mean I agree with the notion of extending the service but you have highlighted a key issue in relation to the provision of infrastructure. In my mind the smartest thing would be to have the two tracks from Abbey Wood down to Crayford Creek Jn with a flexible layout between the tunnel mouth near Plumstead and Abbey Wood so that trains can weave in and out for maximum capacity; meaning it would all need to be a mix of AC and DC for about 3/4 a mile. Crossrail units getting shoes would be the most sensible option; as putting up wires down to Ebbsfleet and having a mixed third rail / AC system is not tolerable.

The only alternative would be to re-model so that it's four tracks from Crayford Creek Jn to Dartford and to have two 'separate railways'. In that scenario the northern pair of tracks is exclusively Crossrail; the southern pair of tracks takes Southeastern trains on the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines and also allows Cannon Street rounders to go Bexleyheath <> Sidcup lines.

The then ideal scenario would call for 8tph from Crossrail down to Kent; 4tph to Ebbsfleet, 2tph to Maidstone West (sounds ludicrous but it would work) and 2tph to Rainham. The Thameslink service would then run up via Sole Street as a Gillingham to Luton stopper via Denmark Hill which is vastly better for capacity.

The Maidstone West line is having a plethora of development and plenty of new housing (hence the High Speed connections) so you could just have 9 car platforms at places like Snodland and Aylesford. If you are then having 2tph from Strood to Tonbridge as 'stoppers', you would saturate the Maidstone market with good connections and the Thameslink service on the Maidstone East line just runs half-hourly Ashford to Cambridge via Herne Hill / Denmark Hill and therefore removing conflicting moves at Chislehurst, Parks Bridge and North Kent East.

You could then have 8tph from Abbey Wood to Cannon Street via Greenwich - easy.

I ought to take charge of the DfT...

 

[James H]

Recent answers from Sadiq Khan to questions from UKIP London Assembly member:

David Kurten (18-Jan-2018)
The Draft London Plan mentions extending the Elizabeth Line from Abbey Wood to Ebbsfleet. What will be the cost of this and who will fund it?

The Mayor (18-Jan-2018)

A partnership, which includes Transport for London, the GLA, London Borough of Bexley and local authorities in Kent is investigating options to extend the Elizabeth line to improve the rail network and support new housing and economic growth.

Costs and potential sources of funding will be identified in a Strategic Outline Business Case, which is planned to be submitted to government later this year.


David Kurten (18-Jan-2018)
What is the proposed route for extending the Elizabeth Line from Abbey Wood to Ebbsfleet, and where can these proposals be viewed by local residents in Belvedere, Erith, Slade Green and other affected communities?


The Mayor (18-Jan-2018)

A partnership, which includes Transport for London, the GLA, London Borough of Bexley and local authorities in Kent is investigating options to extend the Elizabeth line to improve the rail network and support new housing and economic growth.

All of the options being considered involve either shared running on the existing North Kent line from Abbey Wood to Slade Green, or on segregated rail lines adjacent to the existing North Kent rail line for this section. This is illustrated in Figure 40 of the 2017 draft Mayor's Transport Strategy.

http://questions.london.gov.uk/QuestionSearch/searchclient/questions/question_297489

 

[Hophead]

There have been vague plans for a number of years now, to relocate Dartford Station to the west, where a larger station unconstrained by the existing viaduct adjacent to Mill Pond Road, can be built.

 

[ScotGG]

That makes sense. An aerial view of the site shows vast amounts of car parking. I think Network Rail and Dartford Council own it. They could make a mint through redevelopment with housing directly next to a relocated station. Car parking goes into multi-storeys instead of the mainly one-level sprawls used at present.

 

[ComUtoR]

I've looked at this so many times when going past. I really don't see how you could extend it past Erith Station without some serious and extensive redevelopment. From what I can see, you would need to knock a sizable chunk out the A2 to squeeze through. It would also be interesting to see how they could fit in the AC too.

An extension to Ebbsfleet would make a lot of sense and IF Paramount ever gets built then it would be a good link for that too and potentially introduce another station just for that, which would be a good option.

 

[IainG81]

Recent answers from Sadiq Khan to questions from UKIP London Assembly member:


http://questions.london.gov.uk/QuestionSearch/searchclient/questions/question_297489

Interesting from the Mayor that he sees that potential, nothing about Abbey Wood suggests the terminus is permanent. However i would not of I lived in SE London want to lose my connection with London Bridge and CX. Planning shows Crossrail doesn't share stations they take them over fully. TFL take over to much i fear.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I've looked at this so many times when going past. I really don't see how you could extend it past Erith Station without some serious and extensive redevelopment. From what I can see, you would need to knock a sizable chunk out the A2 to squeeze through. It would also be interesting to see how they could fit in the AC too.

An extension to Ebbsfleet would make a lot of sense and IF Paramount ever gets built then it would be a good link for that too and potentially introduce another station just for that, which would be a good option.

Where do you think the A2 goes? It's certainly not through Erith. I assume you mean Bronze Age Way.

Yes, of course effort will be required to make it four track. Although one assumes from the way they talk about it, it would be two track right the way up to Slade Green because that would provide significant capacity even for 8 Crossrail services an hour and 4 Kent franchisee ones. The four track section would be needed from Crayford Creek / Perry Street all the way down and into Dartford.