Crossrail 2

[MrTransportGuy]

So I have heard that there is a new type of Crossrail but they haven't finished the first one, Crossrail 2 will run through my area but one thing I am confused about is that will it go through Tooting Broadway or Ballham because it would be a great help for it to go to Tooting!

 

[JW16]

I don't think that has been decided yet...

 

[furnessvale]

So I have heard that there is a new type of Crossrail but they haven't finished the first one, Crossrail 2 will run through my area but one thing I am confused about is that will it go through Tooting Broadway or Ballham because it would be a great help for it to go to Tooting!

I don't know how old you are, but you could well be retired by the time it opens.

 

[jopsuk]

It has a website. The original plan was Tooting but technical reasons have seen the more likely route be via Balham. The projected 2028 operational date is probably unachievable.

 

[adrock1976]

Is this what is/was known as the Chelsea - Hackney Line?

I've had a brief look at the website (it can be tricky to load the page due to the heavy video and graphics) of the route (from 2015), and have noticed that there are 4 arms south of the mighty Thames, but only 3 north of the river.

Now when I was at primary school many years ago, 4 divided by 3 does not go (not as a whole number anyway), so would this lead to an uneven service pattern along the common section of route?

 

[TheDavibob]

Is this what is/was known as the Chelsea - Hackney Line?

I've had a brief look at the website (it can be tricky to load the page due to the heavy video and graphics) of the route (from 2015), and have noticed that there are 4 arms south of the mighty Thames, but only 3 north of the river.

Now when I was at primary school many years ago, 4 divided by 3 does not go (not as a whole number anyway), so would this lead to an uneven service pattern along the common section of route?

4 doesn't divide by 3, but 24 divides by both, and I imagine they'd be aiming for a 24tph core section. I would say compare this to Crossrail itself, but then that has an asymmetric East/West split. Projected Thameslink is actually probably a better thing to look at, a variety of routes serving different pairs of start/end points

 

[Ironside]

Is this what is/was known as the Chelsea - Hackney Line?

Yes it's a development from that.

 

[Bald Rick]

4 doesn't divide by 3, but 24 divides by both, and I imagine they'd be aiming for a 24tph core section. I would say compare this to Crossrail itself, but then that has an asymmetric East/West split. Projected Thameslink is actually probably a better thing to look at, a variety of routes serving different pairs of start/end points

Read the website. It's 30tph in the core, 15tph on each of the two branches north, and 20tph spread across the 4 branches to the south. 10tph don't go south of Wimbledn.

But the project is by no means a certainty.

 

[Busaholic]

Yes it's a development from that.

When I was working on the Underground in a traffic management role in the 1970-2 period, this was going to be the next tube project after the Fleet Line (later amended to the Jubilee Line). I'm planning to go on it on my 100th birthday in 2048, just after its opening.

 

[plcd1]

So I have heard that there is a new type of Crossrail but they haven't finished the first one, Crossrail 2 will run through my area but one thing I am confused about is that will it go through Tooting Broadway or Ballham because it would be a great help for it to go to Tooting!

This is just one aspect of the proposed route that is under further consideration. There are geological and construction issues at Tooting hence why Balham is being looked at. There are all sorts of issues "up in the air" but there was an update recently that said the Strategic Outline Business Case is being updated and reviewed before submission to DfT. If that gets the nod then there will be a further round of public consultation with a view to confirming the route and dealing with issues raised last time.

I remain to be convinced that CR2 as currently conceived is the right answer for London. Furthermore the joint sponsorship between TfL and the DfT doesn't exactly fit with Mr Grayling's "world view" nor does the concept of a new TOC, possibly under Mayoral control, running services into Herts and Surrey. Mr Grayling also nicely changed the terms of engagement by saying "land value capture" should be a key part of the private sector funding. This is not yet on the statute books and is entirely dependent on the Treasury and DfT. Previous CR2 business cases used existing funding mechanisms thus avoiding new legislation for funding channels. Therefore Mr Grayling has completely changed the basis of how is in control of the funding mechanism. No wonder the promised "agreed route" consultation due last October hasn't happened. I suspect all the "changes of mind" have cost the project at least a year on its planning timescale and also frittered away a share of the £80m planning monies due to be spent on other elements of planning. I'll be astonished if Mayor Khan is in any position to press a "go" button by 2020. I suspect the DfT tactics are designed to prevent City Hall taking any credit for any sort of go ahead on the scheme - presumably in the hope the Tories take the Mayoralty in 2020 and win the General Election. Grayling is nothing if not politically focused and looking to disadvantage his opponents.

 

[Busaholic]

This is just one aspect of the proposed route that is under further consideration. There are geological and construction issues at Tooting hence why Balham is being looked at. There are all sorts of issues "up in the air" but there was an update recently that said the Strategic Outline Business Case is being updated and reviewed before submission to DfT. If that gets the nod then there will be a further round of public consultation with a view to confirming the route and dealing with issues raised last time.

I remain to be convinced that CR2 as currently conceived is the right answer for London. Furthermore the joint sponsorship between TfL and the DfT doesn't exactly fit with Mr Grayling's "world view" nor does the concept of a new TOC, possibly under Mayoral control, running services into Herts and Surrey. Mr Grayling also nicely changed the terms of engagement by saying "land value capture" should be a key part of the private sector funding. This is not yet on the statute books and is entirely dependent on the Treasury and DfT. Previous CR2 business cases used existing funding mechanisms thus avoiding new legislation for funding channels. Therefore Mr Grayling has completely changed the basis of how is in control of the funding mechanism. No wonder the promised "agreed route" consultation due last October hasn't happened. I suspect all the "changes of mind" have cost the project at least a year on its planning timescale and also frittered away a share of the £80m planning monies due to be spent on other elements of planning. I'll be astonished if Mayor Khan is in any position to press a "go" button by 2020. I suspect the DfT tactics are designed to prevent City Hall taking any credit for any sort of go ahead on the scheme - presumably in the hope the Tories take the Mayoralty in 2020 and win the General Election. Grayling is nothing if not politically focused and looking to disadvantage his opponents.

I just have the foreboding that neither Tooting nor Balham will feature in the end, the cheaper and quicker (for Epsom and other commuters in SW land) option being taken that will do nothing to address South London's problems.

As for the Tories winning the 2020 Mayoralty, I would have said that was as likely as a Trump presidency, so they may have hopes.

 

[mr_jrt]

I just have the foreboding that neither Tooting nor Balham will feature in the end, the cheaper and quicker (for Epsom and other commuters in SW land) option being taken that will do nothing to address South London's problems.

As for the Tories winning the 2020 Mayoralty, I would have said that was as likely as a Trump presidency, so they may have hopes.

To be honest, I'm firmly of the opinion that CR2 shouldn't try to solve too many problems at once as it will end up doing them all badly and end up slow and overloaded from day 1.

CR2's primary purpose is to relieve the SWML, and to that end, I think the only reasonable option is to run the tunnels from Clapham Junction to Wimbledon via Earlsfield and rebuild the station underground, leaving the surface SWML tracks free to run through non-stop.

Serving Tooting, or worse, Balham, only serves to slow down the line, overload it with passengers who will gain little benefit from it (a chap named StephenC has dug into the journey data, but IIRC, pretty much all journeys to Northern Line destinations will take just as long when you factor everything in, so they're better off just staying on the tube as they'll generally have to join it anyway)

...that's not to say the Northern Line doesn't need a relief line (it clearly does), but it needs one in addition to CR2 as that will be saturated from the SWML alone.

 

[Busaholic]

To be honest, I'm firmly of the opinion that CR2 shouldn't try to solve too many problems at once as it will end up doing them all badly and end up slow and overloaded from day 1.

CR2's primary purpose is to relieve the SWML, and to that end, I think the only reasonable option is to run the tunnels from Clapham Junction to Wimbledon via Earlsfield and rebuild the station underground, leaving the surface SWML tracks free to run through non-stop.

Serving Tooting, or worse, Balham, only serves to slow down the line, overload it with passengers who will gain little benefit from it (a chap named StephenC has dug into the journey data, but IIRC, pretty much all journeys to Northern Line destinations will take just as long when you factor everything in, so they're better off just staying on the tube as they'll generally have to join it anyway)

...that's not to say the Northern Line doesn't need a relief line (it clearly does), but it needs one in addition to CR2 as that will be saturated from the SWML alone.

I don't disagree with your analysis, but CR2 seems to be all that's possibly on the table for the beleaguered Tooting/Balham/ part of Clapham population. I'm sure Sadiq Khan with his South London political connections will be mindful of all this, but, unlike with bus services, he has relatively little power in these matters as he's so constrained financially. Chris Grayling is such an ideological right winger that he wouldn't concede anything to Khan unless he was forced to.

 

[infobleep]

So who reading this thinks Crossrail 2 needs to be fast tracked? I think it does but I'm no expert on matters such as passenger growth and overcrowding. London First, group of business leaders, also think it needs to be fast tracked. Are they right in their belief?

London needs Crossrail 2 on fast track, party leaders told.

Crossrail*2 must be fast-tracked after the election for the sake of*London’s future growth, business leaders said today.

More house building is also vital to ensure the capital’s firms can attract the best workers, declared business group London First in a “manifesto” for party leaders.

“As soon as Crossrail is open, it’s time to start work in earnest on Crossrail 2,” the document urged.

Crossrail 2, which will run north-south through London between Hertfordshire and Surrey, will cost around £27 billion but could unlock an estimated 200,000 new homes and 200,000 new jobs.

Jasmine Whitbread, the chief executive of London First, said: “The danger is that Crossrail 2 could be kicked into the long grass.

“What we are nervous about is a lack of courage or political will to get on with it. We want all the parties to be clear they intend to take it forward after the election.”
.....
Ministers should also devolve more of their powers to City Hall to enable the mayor to kick-start a range of transport and infrastructure projects that would deliver growth.

That should include letting the Mayor control property taxes and create new funding streams, following the successful construction of the east-west of
Crossrail, the new £15billion high speed service which will begin running this month with the whole line operational in 2019.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...aced-for-sake-of-londons-growth-a3528131.html

 

[LLivery]

To be honest, I'm firmly of the opinion that CR2 shouldn't try to solve too many problems at once as it will end up doing them all badly and end up slow and overloaded from day 1.

CR2's primary purpose is to relieve the SWML, and to that end, I think the only reasonable option is to run the tunnels from Clapham Junction to Wimbledon via Earlsfield and rebuild the station underground, leaving the surface SWML tracks free to run through non-stop.

Serving Tooting, or worse, Balham, only serves to slow down the line, overload it with passengers who will gain little benefit from it (a chap named StephenC has dug into the journey data, but IIRC, pretty much all journeys to Northern Line destinations will take just as long when you factor everything in, so they're better off just staying on the tube as they'll generally have to join it anyway)

...that's not to say the Northern Line doesn't need a relief line (it clearly does), but it needs one in addition to CR2 as that will be saturated from the SWML alone.

I very much agree. To be honest, I think its very possible that it could make the Northern Line worse. A substantial number of South West Londoners/the people of Western Surrey work in the City and Canary Wharf. Many would want to avoid London Waterloo like what is seen on the Sydenham corridor with London Bridge. People avoid changing at London Bridge and go Canada Water instead. With the Northern Line going direct to Bank and Moorgate, a quick change at London Bridge for the Jubilee to Canary Wharf and a change at Elephant & Castle for Thameslink to City Thameslink, I can see it being very attractive, causing serious overcrowding issues.

 

[LLivery]

So who reading this thinks Crossrail 2 needs to be fast tracked? I think it does but I'm no expert on matters such as passenger growth and overcrowding. London First, group of business leaders, also think it needs to be fast tracked. Are they right in their belief?


http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...aced-for-sake-of-londons-growth-a3528131.html

Learning from Paris, I think it should be, regardless of HS2. In 2018 we will basically have RER A (Crossrail), RER D (Thameslink), RER C (London Overground orbital). Now we need a RER B (Crossrail 2).

 

[Ianno87]

I very much agree. To be honest, I think its very possible that it could make the Northern Line worse. A substantial number of South West Londoners/the people of Western Surrey work in the City and Canary Wharf. Many would want to avoid London Waterloo like what is seen on the Sydenham corridor with London Bridge. People avoid changing at London Bridge and go Canada Water instead. With the Northern Line going direct to Bank and Moorgate, a quick change at London Bridge for the Jubilee to Canary Wharf and a change at Elephant & Castle for Thameslink to City Thameslink, I can see it being very attractive, causing serious overcrowding issues.

There'll be a belter of a connection from Crossrail 2 to the Elizabeth Line at Tottenham Court Road for people from the South West headed to Liverpool Street (inc. Moorgate) and Canary Wharf.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's the earliest that XRail2 would open once confirmed, all the tendering processes, construction, testing, etc are done?

 

[Bald Rick]

What's the earliest that XRail2 would open once confirmed, all the tendering processes, construction, testing, etc are done?

Well it's 10 years construction...

 

[infobleep]

There'll be a belter of a connection from Crossrail 2 to the Elizabeth Line at Tottenham Court Road for people from the South West headed to Liverpool Street (inc. Moorgate) and Canary Wharf.

If it ever happens. If it doesn't then there won't be anything and everyone will still have to go through Waterloo and fan out or Clapham Junction if you lucky enough to have a decent train service to that station.

 

[AlanFry1]

it's a shame that CR2 will go nowhere near North Tottenham and Edmonton, earmarked with phenomenal development that will add many thousands to the population

 

[Olaf]

Unfortunately there is not enough money for all the demands on the Treasury. Parts of HS2 are at risk because of the costings are not finalised, and what is known is coming in above estimates. That is before all of the integration projects that are being suggested.

There is also a need to fund a GBP 50 Billion contingency fund for the EU exit, and to decide what additional funding requests to meet from Health, Education and the MoD, and that is before the anticipated Global recession/Financial Correction.

CR2 is unlikely to be cancelled, but more likely to be pushed back with perhaps additional phasing of the work to spread-out the costs over a longer period.

 

[The Ham]

Unfortunately there is not enough money for all the demands on the Treasury. Parts of HS2 are at risk because of the costings are not finalised, and what is known is coming in above estimates. That is before all of the integration projects that are being suggested.

There is also a need to fund a GBP 50 Billion contingency fund for the EU exit, and to decide what additional funding requests to meet from Health, Education and the MoD, and that is before the anticipated Global recession/Financial Correction.

CR2 is unlikely to be cancelled, but more likely to be pushed back with perhaps additional phasing of the work to spread-out the costs over a longer period.

I'm not so sure, with half the funding coming from London tax payers and it increasing capacity on a very profitable pay of the railway (i.e. SWT) and allowing more trains to run on parts of the railway which are capable of having more services with relatively little other investment, then it could be a bit of a no brainer to build.

 

[LLivery]

There'll be a belter of a connection from Crossrail 2 to the Elizabeth Line at Tottenham Court Road for people from the South West headed to Liverpool Street (inc. Moorgate) and Canary Wharf.

True, but will that actually be quicker? I can't imagine so.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

True, but will that actually be quicker? I can't imagine so.

If the crowds changing at Tooting/Balham/wherever the connection ends up are as bad as you are suggesting, then it may well end up quicker to some locations. Interchange time is a factor that people will consider.

Bear in mind too that people on Crossrail2 would have the option to change not just to the Central line but to Crossrail1 at Tottenham Court road. That will give just two stops to Liverpool Street (with an exit at Moorgate), and 4 stops to Canary Wharf.

I think you do have a point though that undoubtedly there will be some people wanting to transfer to the Northern line at Balham(?), which may well put more pressure on that line. It's hard to tell at this stage to what extent that will be balanced by people who join the Northern line further south transferring to Crossrail2 to continue their journeys. In general, providing that connection at Balham(?) is going to give people more choice of routes, which would seem to be a good thing.

 

[infobleep]

I'm not so sure, with half the funding coming from London tax payers and it increasing capacity on a very profitable pay of the railway (i.e. SWT) and allowing more trains to run on parts of the railway which are capable of having more services with relatively little other investment, then it could be a bit of a no brainer to build.

Maybe the South West Trains services are not overcrowded enough yet, what with the additional carriage lengths due to be implemented, to justify it. Perhaps they will seriously consider it when the services are more over crowded than they currently are. I don't know how many years that would take, once the additional carriages are in place, to create passenger links veld above what already exists.

 

[Olaf]

I'm not so sure, with half the funding coming from London tax payers and it increasing capacity on a very profitable pay of the railway (i.e. SWT) and allowing more trains to run on parts of the railway which are capable of having more services with relatively little other investment, then it could be a bit of a no brainer to build.

The problem with the Central Government funding has arisen after the 50/50 split with Greater London was put forward:

In addition:

• Evidence for the collection of 50% of the funding from communities, business, and commercial sources was a little 'ambitious', and was gathered before the Brexit vote, corrections to Sterling levels, and anticipated economic slow-down in Greater London,
• The growth in patronage from the longer distance passengers has been tailing-off on the SWML in recent reports, with the last report showing a marked decline,
• Costings for the project are now out of date, and may need to be revised upwards unless cutbacks are made to what was proposed.

The problem is that irrespective of their technical merits, there are not expected to be sufficient funds available for the projects put forward in the Cameron/Osbourne era or for any of the other demands being made by spending departments on the Treasury.