Crossrail 2 VS Chelsea - Hackney Line

[freetoview33]

I was having a look at the plans for Crossrail 2 and the ones for the Chelsea - Hackney line. It does seem that the purpose of the line has changed significantly. Yes the general idea of having a route from South West - North East is there. But I am seriously thinking there might be a case for both. The Chelsea - Hackney line (As an underground line) to help relieve pressure on the underground. Then Crossrail 2 to relieve pressure on Waterloo suburban services and Lea Valley lines. I just don't think that Crossrail 2 would help the underground much, which was the whole idea of C - H.

Then talking about future things Crossrail 3 could be Tring - South East London to go along with proposed extensions to the Bakerloo line.

 

[Class 170101]

The purpose of the line depends on how it is being pushed forward. So the Chelsea and Hackney Line was pushed as a means of relieving congestion on the Underground as where as Crossrail 2 is seen as relieving BR lines.

Both are using similar alignments through Central London so clearly both cannot happen. On balance I would probably go for Crossrail 2 as a means of providing more capacity for the South West lines.

As for Tring that I believe will become part of Crossrail 1.

 

[freetoview33]

The purpose of the line depends on how it is being pushed forward. So the Chelsea and Hackney Line was pushed as a means of relieving congestion on the Underground as where as Crossrail 2 is seen as relieving BR lines.

Both are using similar alignments through Central London so clearly both cannot happen. On balance I would probably go for Crossrail 2 as a means of providing more capacity for the South West lines.

As for Tring that I believe will become part of Crossrail 1.

Well the Chelsea - Dalston alignment is, although Chelsea to Hackney had additional stops

 

[NotATrainspott]

Crossrail 2 would still somewhat relieve the London Underground, so it isn't as if it would do only one thing. On the other hand, the idea of a self-contained metro service would only be able to do one thing, as it wouldn't be able to take suburban trains or their passengers particularly well.

 

[edwin_m]

Crossrail 2 was developed as two alternative options: the Regional option as now taken forward, and a shorter Metro option which would actually be similar to DLR technically but with longer trains etc to have the same capacity as a Tube line. The consultation and other work preferred the Regional option.

Both Crossrail 1 and Crossrail 2 will relieve Tube lines, because as commuters entering London either side get off at each station in the morning there will be space available for cross-London travellers. The Metro option also reduces the number of trains that have to terminate at Liverpool Street and Waterloo, and the number of passengers who have to interchange to the Tube at these termini.

Crossrails 1 and 2 will also provide faster journeys between the busier Tube stations, so leaving the Tubes to cater for those stations that Crossrail doesn't duplicate. For example anyone travelling between Liverpool Street, TCR or Bond Street will use Crossrail 1 instead of the Central Line.

 

[glbotu]

Where are they planning on putting the portals in the SW for Crossrail 2. I understand it's somewhere between Wimbledon and Raynes Park, but I can't see anywhere which has enough space without significantly reducing SWML capacity (to 2 tracks - which defeats some of the point).

 

[freetoview33]

Where are they planning on putting the portals in the SW for Crossrail 2. I understand it's somewhere between Wimbledon and Raynes Park, but I can't see anywhere which has enough space without significantly reducing SWML capacity (to 2 tracks - which defeats some of the point).

It does look like it is going to be difficult to fit portals in unless they build it on the Wimbledon TMD? But I'm not sure where that could be relocated to or even if it would be needed with suburban services going to Crossrail 2. But there doesn't seem to be much room between Raynes Park and Wimbledon!

Surely this would also put additional pressure on Clapham Junction? Although if the Northern Line (Or whatever it might be called by then) carries on from Battersea to Clapham would that help things?

 

[philjo]

The feature on Crossrail2 in Rail last week said that wimbledon TMD was currently earmarked as the Crossrail2 depot.
It mentioned that remodelling of the lines through Wimbledon was planned so the track layout will not be the same as present.

 

[freetoview33]

The feature on Crossrail2 in Rail last week said that wimbledon TMD was currently earmarked as the Crossrail2 depot.
It mentioned that remodelling of the lines through Wimbledon was planned so the track layout will not be the same as present.

I just got to that bit after I posted it!

 

[Chris125]

Where are they planning on putting the portals in the SW for Crossrail 2. I understand it's somewhere between Wimbledon and Raynes Park, but I can't see anywhere which has enough space without significantly reducing SWML capacity (to 2 tracks - which defeats some of the point).

I believe the current plan is for the tunnel to start north of Wimbledon, presumably to save the substantial cost of an underground station.

Consultation – Stage 2 Analysis Report (June 2014)

The Council also notes Crossrail 2’s intention to relocate the southernmost tunnel portal just
north of Wimbledon, which the council supports in principal, as this is likely to have less
impact on Merton residents than the previous option, although it recognises that this will be
subject to detailed investigations.

Chris

 

[Busaholic]

The original purpose of the thinking behind the Chelsea to Hackney line wasn't so much to relieve pressure on existing underground lines as to bring an underground service to not only places that didn't already have it, but had poor or non-existent suburban rail services, which by definition included both Hackney and Chelsea. At the time the Victoria Line was fairly new and, although busy, not overcrowded north of Kings Cross: the Piccadilly did not extend to Heathrow, and in any case not very many people used it to access the airport. It was bus services like the 22 (which then served Hackney as well as Chelsea), the 19 and 38, the first two of which were then much more frequent than today, which needed relieving on a WSW/ENE axis as well as providing useful new links between existing underground lines. Then LT's planners switched their attentions to ideas for the Fleet Line (later renamed the Jubilee) and C to H got put on the back burner, in reality with the flame switched off. Now, with the latest plans, Hackney (the place rather than the borough) looks as though it may come off second best to the denizens of the Ally Pally area unless their elected representatives start making a colossal fuss (come on Diane Abbot, stop using all those taxis to get home).

 

[freetoview33]

If Wimbledon depot is used for Crossrail 2 then where will what is currently housed there go?

 

[Chris125]

If Wimbledon depot is used for Crossrail 2 then where will what is currently housed there go?

It's too early to say but the impact will presumably be mitigated to some extent by Crossrail 2 taking over some of the suburban services whose stock is currently maintained there, and it will also have a depot at New Southgate.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

They could store them at Strawberry Hill and there was talk of reinstating a depot on the former steam shed site at Feltham. But that will be a logistical nightmare.

 

[swt_passenger]

At least they now intend to incorporate significant chunks of the SWML inner suburban routes into CR2, as you point out, and so transfer of Wimbledon depot fits well.

However the original Chelsea - Hackney tube line option, that would have terminated at Wimbledon, also surprisingly had its eye on the depot in the safeguarding, which would have caused obvious problems for SWT or their successors.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Well as long as they keep their grubby little mitts on stuff to Epsom, Chessington, Kingston and Shepperton, that's fine. It means that I won't be going there anymore and it'll release some of our stock to strengthen outer suburban services.

It should also mean that Woking/Guildford stopping services should be speeded up.

 

[simple simon]

It would a travesty if Crossrail 2 was diverted away from Chelsea, by which I mean the long planned station at / near Chelsea Town hall. At present the Kings Road has Sloane Square near one end but nothing more.

Trying to ease overcrowding on existing lines may sound nice but what about the may areas in this part of inner north London which did have trains but through no fault of their own are now bereft of any railway services?

So, I do not agree with the line even going to Alexandra Palace but seeing as it will it should then extend to Muswell Hill (probably a brand new site wholly below ground), then rise to the surface to reuse former trackbed which is completely closed and overgrown (not even the Parkland walkway), terminating at Highgate High Level. The station is there so whilst works would be needed the cost would be far less than a brand new station. Cranley Gardens has been built over and all other options would probably be too near other stations or just too expensive.

Not wanting a war with the locals who like bats in the tunnels to the south of Highgate station and the parkland walkway I won't suggest what could also happen at moderate cost.

Simon

 

[freetoview33]

Just wondering are there any other paths safeguarded through central London, that could possibly allow both to happen, just in theory!

 

[Chris125]

So, I do not agree with the line even going to Alexandra Palace but seeing as it will it should then extend to Muswell Hill (probably a brand new site wholly below ground), then rise to the surface to reuse former trackbed which is completely closed and overgrown (not even the Parkland walkway), terminating at Highgate High Level.

Of all the problems with that idea, perhaps the most fundamental is the distance between the tunnels at Highgate - it doesn't look long enough even for 10x20m, let alone 12x20m which CR2 will need to provide for and there's only space for 2 platforms which may not be sufficient depending on the proposed frequency.

Chris

 

[Hackneyite]

It's going to New Southgate so would make an interesting turn for Muswell Hill/ Highgate!

 

[DarloRich]

It does look like it is going to be difficult to fit portals in unless they build it on the Wimbledon TMD? But I'm not sure where that could be relocated to or even if it would be needed with suburban services going to Crossrail 2. But there doesn't seem to be much room between Raynes Park and Wimbledon!

Surely this would also put additional pressure on Clapham Junction? Although if the Northern Line (Or whatever it might be called by then) carries on from Battersea to Clapham would that help things?

I would like to see Clapham Junction on the underground network

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I would like to see Clapham Junction on the underground network

You've got two hopes... Bob & No.

 

[DarloRich]

You've got two hopes... Bob & No.

two hopes you say? I know it is never going to happen but it seems like such an importnant interchange point

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Actually Bob is deceased. So no hope whatsoever. Joris Bohnson won't allow it.

 

[freetoview33]

Surely if the Northern Line was extended to Clapham and Crossrail 2 were to happen at a the same time as a rebuilt camden town then there would be a massive relief on Waterloo.

 

[muddythefish]

Does anyone think that if Crossrail 2 were built they would use refurbished Underground D stock to run on it ?

 

[freetoview33]

Does anyone think that if Crossrail 2 were built they would use refurbished Underground D stock to run on it ?

I doubt it if I'm honest

 

[cle]

Surely if the Northern Line was extended to Clapham and Crossrail 2 were to happen at a the same time as a rebuilt camden town then there would be a massive relief on Waterloo.

Wouldn't it be something - to go from no tube to Northern line and Crossrail 2. Certainly that would help spread things out - the Northern line will definitely have capacity and Waterloo will be quieter too.

Vauxhall relief is probably the biggest gain, for the Victoria line overall. Perhaps at that point, it could be extended itself a few stops...

 

[freetoview33]

Wouldn't it be something - to go from no tube to Northern line and Crossrail 2. Certainly that would help spread things out - the Northern line will definitely have capacity and Waterloo will be quieter too.

Vauxhall relief is probably the biggest gain, for the Victoria line overall. Perhaps at that point, it could be extended itself a few stops...

A stop at White Hart Lane on the Victoria Line then might become a good idea (As another interchange with Crossrail 2) and 1 stop South to Herne Hill. I think ideally a good Southern terminus for the Victoria Line would be Beckenham Junction, although it wouldn't happen for 20 years!

I still don't get why they haven't planned for a possible interchange between the Northern Line extension and the Victoria line.

 

[cle]

I think for the reason that everyone would pile onto the Victoria line! It's far better and quicker to the West End, and indeed Euston/KXSP from there than the Northern crawling via Kennington.

But yes once they're both opened and Victoria & Vauxhall have relief, a southern extension to at least Herne Hill makes sense. Although taking it down to Streatham and axing a few of the many buses up Brixton Hill must be a contender too.