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Crossrail 2 plans

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MartinB1

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I was wondering if anyone could tell me what the plans are likely to be, specifically in relation to how they would affect the existing South Western Railway infrastructure.

What services would South West Trains lose if CR2 is built? How would the tunnel at Wimbledon effect the SWT network? What happens to the Wimbledon Park depot? Which SWT depots would effectively be swallowed up by CR2; Woking, Guildford, Wimbledon? What do the proposals mean for Clapham Junction (I've heard it mentioned that the Windsor side platforms would be taken over by CR2)? Are they any destinations ie Shepperton/Chessington South that would no longer have services from Waterloo?
 
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swt_passenger

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MartinB1 said:
I was wondering if anyone could tell me what the plans are likely to be, specifically in relation to how they would effect the existing South Western Railway infrastructure. What services would South West Trains lose if CR2 is built? How would the tunnel at Wimbledon effect the SWT network? What happens to the Wimbledon Park depot? Which SWT depots would effectively be swallowed up by CR2; Woking, Guildford, Wimbledon? What do the proposals mean for Clapham Junction (I've heard it mentioned that the Windsor side platforms would be taken over by CR2)?
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As a first point, this has been covered in numerous previous threads, but to summarise.

Services. The majority of main suburban services on the main side, i.e. those that pass through Wimbledon, would transfer to Crossrail 2, but there would still be a minority service from some but not all branches/origins into Waterloo. http://crossrail2.co.uk/route/route-map/ The suggestion is at least 4 tph each to Shepperton, Hampton Court, Chessington South and Epsom.

The tunnel through Wimbledon (and cut and cover platforms) as currently proposed do not affect the four SWT tracks. But various alternatives have been proposed that might change that.

Nothing would happen to Wimbledon Park depot on current plans (although it was a part of some much earlier plans when they were going to run on the District tracks). The Crossrail depot will now be to the east of the SWT main lines.

Woking and Guildford are not rolling stock depots, should be no Crossrail effects there.

Crossrail 2 is underground at Clapham Junction. Circulation routes will alter but it definitely doesn't run through any existing platforms. A worksite is required within the depot alongside platform 7, some stabling has to be relocated. http://1267lm2nzpvy44li8s48uorode.w...-content/uploads/2016/10/Clapham-Junction.pdf

They do have their own website nowadays as well: http://crossrail2.co.uk
 
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MartinB1

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Many thanks for your informative response, the links you provided are also very useful. As a SWT Driver I am interested to know how a future CR2 will effect me.

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MartinB1

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So essentially SWT will lose Hampton Court, Chessington South, and have a reduced number of services to Shepperton? This will increase capacity between Wimbledon and Waterloo for long distance services, but surely the capacity between Surbiton and Wimbledon will be reduced with the extra CR2 sevices?

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swt_passenger

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MartinB1 said:
So essentially SWT will lose Hampton Court, Chessington South, and have a reduced number of services to Shepperton? This will increase capacity between Wimbledon and Waterloo for long distance services, but surely the capacity between Surbiton and Wimbledon will be reduced with the extra CR2 sevices?
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Do you mean track capacity? That would be maintained because there'll be dedicated tracks for Crossrail 2 from New Malden to Wimbledon. A few miles of 6 track railway. AIUI CR2 services off both the Kingston branch and the Epsom branch will not join the main slows at all.
 
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MartinB1

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Yes I did mean that, but you have clarified that for me. Interesting times ahead!

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swt_passenger

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MartinB1 said:
Yes I did mean that, but you have clarified that for me. Interesting times ahead!
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It is hinted at if you read the station leaflets for New Malden and Raynes Park.
EG this one: http://1267lm2nzpvy44li8s48uorode.w...0/Motspur-Park-New-Malden-and-Raynes-Park.pdf

...But somewhere online last year there was a sketch of a track plan. The up Crossrail line has to get under the four SWML tracks somewhere west of Wimbledon, and there also has to be turn back sidings (for 10 tph) fitted in somewhere along there as well
 
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MartinB1

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I imagine this might mean bringing the island platform at New Malden into use? It would be interesting to see how both these stations will get remodelled. There is going to need to be some extensive work between Wimbledon and New Malden to make this all a reality.

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Feathers44

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swt_passenger said:
It is hinted at if you read the station leaflets for New Malden and Raynes Park.
EG this one: http://1267lm2nzpvy44li8s48uorode.w...0/Motspur-Park-New-Malden-and-Raynes-Park.pdf

...But somewhere online last year there was a sketch of a track plan. The up Crossrail line has to get under the four SWML tracks somewhere west of Wimbledon, and there also has to be turn back sidings (for 10 tph) fitted in somewhere along there as well
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I saw that plan too, I think. The turn back siding and other stuff was making extensive use of the old West Goods Yard area (beyond the current Tramlink platform or on the Sutton Loop side of things depending on your reference point). I've watched that area decay since I was a boy on the railway bridges there so seeing it in use would be good.

I can't remember the arrangement for the crossing there. I want to say that everything was slewed to the south to make room to the north for the line to come up from underneath but in all honesty I really don't recall so I must be guessing based on local geography.
 
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MartinB1

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Whilst driving up and down the main line between New Malden and Wimbledon earlier, I was thinking that the amount of work and disruption that is going to happen whilst the Crossrail lines are built in that area will make this summer's Waterloo blockade look like a bit of minor Sunday engineering works.

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absolutelymilk

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muddythefish

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Will Crossrail 2 be a bimode combination of electric and diesel like the bodged northern schemes?

Nope, thought not
 
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absolutelymilk said:
The Times is reporting that Chris Grayling has backed Crossrail 2, but wants London to pay half of the cost upfront.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/london-will-have-to-pay-15bn-for-crossrail2-pm6f72q78
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Here is the text from a DfT announcement:
Last week the Transport Secretary Chris Grayling and Mayor of London Sadiq Khan had a productive meeting to discuss the way forward for Crossrail 2. They agreed that there is no doubt London needs new infrastructure to support its growth and ensure it continues as the UK’s economic powerhouse – boosting productivity and attracting investment. While London has shown how it could pay for half of the scheme over its life, ‎the Mayor and Transport Secretary want to see how London could fund half of the scheme during construction. They agree on the need to ensure a funding package which works for both London and the rest of the country and recognises other priorities, but also delivers the new capacity and connectivity that London needs.

They agreed a way forward in the coming months to examine ways to improve affordability while maximising the key benefits of the scheme, learning lessons ‎from Crossrail 1, ahead of this autumn’s Budget.

Secretary of State for Transport, Chris Grayling said:


“I am a supporter of Crossrail 2 but given its price tag we have to ensure that we get this right. The Mayor and I have agreed to work together on it over the coming months to develop plans that are as strong as possible, so that the public gets an affordable scheme that is fair to the UK taxpayer. Following a successful outcome being reached I am keen to launch a fresh public consultation to help gather views to improve the scheme and clarify the position around the safeguarded route.”

Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan said:


“Crossrail 2 is essential for the future prosperity of London and the south-east, so I’m pleased that the Transport Secretary and I have reached an agreement to take this vital project forward. We will continue to work together to ensure the project is value for money and provides the maximum benefits for jobs and growth in the region over the coming decades. I look forward to moving to the next stage of consultation.”
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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/crossrail-2-a-way-forward
 
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muddythefish said:
Will Crossrail 2 be a bimode combination of electric and diesel like the bodged northern schemes?

Nope, thought not
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Bodged schemes? I raise you EWR.

Not just "the North" that suffers is it. Besides, not relevant to the planning of Crossrail 2.
 
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Chester1

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D365 said:
Bodged schemes? I raise you EWR.

Not just "the North" that suffers is it. Besides, not relevant to the planning of Crossrail 2.
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Don't bother.

My two cents is the cost of the tunnels should be paid by London councils, TfL etc and from loans repaid from future fare revenue. This appears to be how major schemes outside of NR system will be funded. Upgrading existing lines at each end should easily pay for itseld through extra track access charge revenue.
 
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Chester1 said:
Don't bother.

My two cents is the cost of the tunnels should be paid by London councils, TfL etc and from loans repaid from future fare revenue. This appears to be how major schemes outside of NR system will be funded. Upgrading existing lines at each end should easily pay for itseld through extra track access charge revenue.
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1) who borrows the money?
2) who pays the extra track access charges?
 
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Chester1

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Bald Rick said:
1) who borrows the money?
2) who pays the extra track access charges?
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1) A company owned by the Greater London Authority and setup to build and maintain CR2, with the treasury acting as guarantor to keep interest rate utra low.

2) the opperator if a franchise, TfL through fares if a concession.

The whole project should pay for itself and financing costs within 30-40 years. If it is a success London profits and if it fails and or goes massively over budget then London loses.
 
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Jonny

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It's time TfL was told, if you want it pay for it yourself. The North is much less populated, and any arguments "per head" are disingenious.
 
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Bald Rick

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Chester1 said:
1) A company owned by the Greater London Authority and setup to build and maintain CR2, with the treasury acting as guarantor to keep interest rate utra low.

2) the opperator if a franchise, TfL through fares if a concession.

The whole project should pay for itself and financing costs within 30-40 years. If it is a success London profits and if it fails and or goes massively over budget then London loses.
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1) if the Treasury guarantees the loans, it means it is on the Treasury's books, which is exactly what government have said they don't want.

2) and where does the operator of the franchise get the cash to pay for these additional track access charges? There are only two sources - taxpayer or fare payer. The first is out, so it has to be the second. Given that the access charges would be at least 10 times that paid by LOROL in their last year (which was £25m, as per their accounts), that's an awful lot of *additional* fare income required.
 
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MartinB1 said:
Whilst driving up and down the main line between New Malden and Wimbledon earlier, I was thinking that the amount of work and disruption that is going to happen whilst the Crossrail lines are built in that area will make this summer's Waterloo blockade look like a bit of minor Sunday engineering works.

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Spot-on. That and the proposal to turn Wimbledon town centre into a building site for about 10 years is a serious problem yet to be addressed.
 
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Olaf

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muddythefish said:
No, because it is London and south east.
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If southern commuters did not have to pay out so much extra to subsidise the northern joy-riders, we would be able to cover a greater proportion of the costs out of hand.
 
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