Crossrail 2 alternative suggestions

[PTR 444]

I’d have thought it was because they are short, relatively self contained, largely in London, and in areas much more likely to see significant housing development (being in London).

Not sure how you’d get a direct service to Welwyn mind; and getting to Stansted means removing some Stansted express sevrvices which wouldn’t not be popular!

Getting CR2 to serve Welwyn would just be a case of extending the New Southgate branch further up the ECML. Surely that can't any more difficult than constructing the central section?

 

[Flinn Reed]

One of the other things that needs to be considered is the plan to create many new homes at Meridian Water. That will be limited without CR2.

In a scenario in which Crossrail 2 does not go ahead, an alternative could be to extend the Victoria Line. The track already exists to the depot at Northumberland Park, so this would just need to be extended a short distance, or connected to the existing rail lines to reach Meridian Water. Trains currently terminating at Seven Sisters could be extended to Meridian Water.

 

[si404]

In south London terms the busiest bit of the Northern Line (south of the river) is Balham - Stockwell where it then empties out substantially onto the Victoria line hence encouraging those users on to CR2 will make major difference in term of relief. (Passengers at the Clapham Station struggle to board)

But only by removing some of the passengers from one station (OK, one of the busiest, whichever it is) - I don't think people will change from the Northern south of the interchange to CR2 north of there.

It's a lot different to in the North, where two of the 6 Victoria line stations are served, and three more are deliberately and explicitly relieved. Here's its "well if we send it via Tooting Broadway, we're doing something for it" rather than a wholesale duplication for the sake of relief.

And you have to watch for people changing at Tooting/Balham to do Chessington-City, etc journeys - you could end up making the situation worse.

It is also worth remembering that Tooting Broadway has roughly the same passenger numbers as Fenchurch Street so getting a good number of them straight on to CR2 would provide major relief to the Northern and Victoria lines. Tooting Broadway is a substantial bus heading destination from 3 directions.

Indeed, and it does intercept those passengers and get a lot on them, but will people from further south take CR2, when changing at Stockwell for Victoria or Kennington for TCR is easier and not much slower (due to the cross-platform interchanges) and busy West End destinations like Charing Cross and Green Park are served directly by staying on the train?

I think it will help somewhat with tube crowding in South London, just not as much as CR2 claim, and nowhere near as much as it will do in North London. Partially because tube crowding relief in South London is treated as a bonus feature, rather than the raison d'etre of the route.

 

[Ianno87]

But only by removing some of the passengers from one station (OK, one of the busiest, whichever it is) - I don't think people will change from the Northern south of the interchange to CR2 north of there.

If CR2 offers a significant journey time advantage they will.

Tooting to Euston (for example) would be 5 stops on CR2, 11 changing at Stockwell.

4 vs 9 for CR2 to TCR / Northern+Vic to Oxford Circus.

Alot of South Londoners are going to go for the journey time advatage of the "express" service.

 

[VT 390]

In a scenario in which Crossrail 2 does not go ahead, an alternative could be to extend the Victoria Line. The track already exists to the depot at Northumberland Park, so this would just need to be extended a short distance, or connected to the existing rail lines to reach Meridian Water. Trains currently terminating at Seven Sisters could be extended to Meridian Water.

Would this not mean fewer trains to Tottenham Hale/Blackhorse Road/Walthamstow Central? as there are not that many services which terminate at Seven Sisters and a lot of the time they can be full already after Walthamstow Central so you would not want to reduce the service there, especially if Crossrail 2 did not go ahead as there would be no alterntive for Tottenham Hale.

 

[Ianno87]

Would this not mean fewer trains to Tottenham Hale/Blackhorse Road/Walthamstow Central? as there are not that many services which terminate at Seven Sisters and a lot of the time they can be full already after Walthamstow Central so you would not want to reduce the service there, especially if Crossrail 2 did not go ahead as there would be no alterntive for Tottenham Hale.

Precisely - all those trains are needed at Wathamstow/Tottenham Hale etc to serve demand there. Plus attempting to introduce a Victoria line branch almost certainly will mean reducing frequency to less than 36tph overall.

 

[Bald Rick]

Getting CR2 to serve Welwyn would just be a case of extending the New Southgate branch further up the ECML. Surely that can't any more difficult than constructing the central section?

Which trains on the ECML are you going to cancel to run Crossrail 2 services? The ECML is full in the peak between Ally Pally and WGC.

 

[Class 170101]

I’d have thought it was because they are short, relatively self contained, largely in London, and in areas much more likely to see significant housing development (being in London).

Not sure how you’d get a direct service to Welwyn mind; and getting to Stansted means removing some Stansted express sevrvices which wouldn’t not be popular!

Getting CR2 to serve Welwyn would just be a case of extending the New Southgate branch further up the ECML. Surely that can't any more difficult than constructing the central section?

Which trains on the ECML are you going to cancel to run Crossrail 2 services? The ECML is full in the peak between Ally Pally and WGC.

Bald Rick and I have disagreed with this before but my view is that Welwyn GC all stations services to Moorgate would cease to operate and instead these would be diverted to Hertford North to provide extra capacity on this route. WGC would be served by CR2 instead of this New Southgate stub.

 

[Bald Rick]

Bald Rick and I have disagreed with this before but my view is that Welwyn GC all stations services to Moorgate would cease to operate and instead these would be diverted to Hertford North to provide extra capacity on this route. WGC would be served by CR2 instead of this New Southgate stub.

It would be a rather significant inconvenience for all the people off the WGC aiming for the city. No increase in capacity either. And longer journey times for most journeys. Not much to like!

 

[hwl]

One of the other things that needs to be considered is the plan to create many new homes at Meridian Water. That will be limited without CR2.

And many of the other WAML stations could see similar developments to Meridian Water

 

[Ethano92]

It would be a rather significant inconvenience for all the people off the WGC aiming for the city. No increase in capacity either. And longer journey times for most journeys. Not much to like!

Surely a pretty big increase in capacity. Hertford loop gets double the service essentially and the WGC stoppers are served by trains double the length since crossrail 2 will likely utilise stock around >200m. Of course this would include significant platform extensions but at least these wouldn't be impossible unlike the NCL platforms which is the whole reason GN inners are restricted to 6 cars

City passengers could change at
•Alexandra Palace for GN off the Hertford loop
•Seven sister's for LO into Liverpool Street
•Dalston Junction for ELL to Shoreditch as an alternative to Liverpool Street
•Angel for northern line
•Euston StP for SSL
•Tottenham court round for crossrail 1
•Victoria for south side of Circle line

This is almost every single stop, I don't see journey times being majorly impacted.

Not saying it's necessary although I too have always found New Southgate to be odd.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely a pretty big increase in capacity. Hertford loop gets double the service essentially and the WGC stoppers are served by trains double the length since crossrail 2 will likely utilise stock around >200m. Of course this would include significant platform extensions but at least these wouldn't be impossible unlike the NCL platforms which is the whole reason GN inners are restricted to 6 cars

City passengers could change at
•Alexandra Palace for GN off the Hertford loop
•Seven sister's for LO into Liverpool Street
•Dalston Junction for ELL to Shoreditch as an alternative to Liverpool Street
•Angel for northern line
•Euston StP for SSL
•Tottenham court round for crossrail 1
•Victoria for south side of Circle line

This is almost every single stop, I don't see journey times being majorly impacted.

Not saying it's necessary although I too have always found New Southgate to be odd.

Fair point on capacity. Although that does assume CR2 is going via Ally Pally and not Wood Green.

 

[Ethano92]

Fair point on capacity. Although that does assume CR2 is going via Ally Pally and not Wood Green.

True, and am I right in thinking Enfield (or whichever local council it is, can't remember) are lobbying for it to in fact go via Wood green meaning it's likely.

 

[Aictos]

Which trains on the ECML are you going to cancel to run Crossrail 2 services? The ECML is full in the peak between Ally Pally and WGC.

Just wondering but why not in the peaks use New Southgate as the terminus and off peak and weekends use Welwyn Garden City?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

After reading this thread, I can safely say I definetly support Crossrail 2. However as a resident of New Southgate extending Crossrail 2 services to Welwyn seems like a terrible idea as it leads to far longer journey times to get into London as I have to go via Seven Sisters, no direct trains to Moorgate or Finsbury Park and passengers travelling from stations such as New Southgate can no longer get direct trains to any destinations south of Alexandra Palace, at the cost of a longer journey time. Seems like a lose lose for passengers if this occurs. I would just continue to use the Picadiily Line from Arnos Grove if this were to occur which has very frequent services to a far larger range of destinations in central London.

The only thing I am asking is where exactly are the Crossrail 2 services going to terminate at New Southgate as there isn't much space to build a new platform?

I hope New Southgate gets rebuilt though for Crossrail 2 as it is in dire need of investment and is one of the scummiest and unfriendliest suburban station on Great Northern's network.

 

[swt_passenger]

The only thing I am asking is where exactly are the Crossrail 2 services going to terminate at New Southgate as there isn't much space to build a new platform?
I hope New Southgate gets rebuilt though for Crossrail 2 as it is in dire need of investment and is one of the scummiest and unfriendliest suburban station on Great Northern's network.

There’s a pdf about it, reads as if they’ll move the roads to make room:

A new Crossrail 2 station at New Southgate would be at surface and co-located with the existing National Rail Station and could include:
• 2 x 250 metre long platforms, which would be at the same level as the existing National Rail platforms
• A dedicated station entrance and ticket hall onto Station Road, to the south of the existing entrance
• A potential second entrance onto Regal Drive
• Permanent realignment of Station Road to allow for Crossrail 2 platforms to be constructed
https://crossrail2.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/New-Southgate.pdf

Also mentions where the stabling would be, probably all makes more sense to someone local...

 

[Peregrine 4903]

There’s a pdf about it, reads as if they’ll move the roads to make room:

Also mentions where the stabling would be, probably all makes more sense to someone local...

Thankyou so much for showing me that document. I have to say bring on Crossrail 2 after that document as long as Welwyn services aren't routed onto it.

New Southgate station is in desperate need of redevelopment or even just doing up.

However these works are clearly going to have to be very substantial as New Southgate is tight for space.

I presume Crossrail 2 platforms will be on the left side of the station.

Also the one thing I don't get is how is this depot and maintanance siding going to be installed. The site of where they are going to go is way higher that the East Coast Mainline as the East Coast Mainline runs through a cutting at that point.

I hope the scheme goes ahead as New Southgate could desperately do with these improvements.

 

[Aictos]

If this was feasible I am sure @Bald Rick would have said so! Where would you put them at New Southgate? Would you build another WGC-style flyover to get them back south?

As they be terminating at New Southgate, I’m sure the answer you’re looking for has already been provided.

My question about extending some off peak services to Welwyn GC would depend on infrastructure being in place to enable CR2 trains to access the Down Slow heading to WGC and to enable them to access the CR2 route coming off the Up Slow.

Terminating at WGC would use existing infrastructure.

 

[adamedwards]

I thought the plan was for platforms on the east side at New Southgate with the CR2 lines extending north to a depot where there is currently light industry. So an incoming train can either shunt in the platform or in the sidings further north. Station Road is narrowed and moved east. Station forecourt removed for the tracks. A deck linking all platforms and one hopes a bus station goes on top.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Personally speaking I'd re-build Welwyn Garden such that the Flyover works 'the other way' taking trains over towards the Up Side where stabling could be created. You'd only then need a 'Down ECML' Platform, two through roads, an 'Up ECML Platform', and an island next to that for the Crossrail 2 stuff.

You could legitimately suggest a combination of 'semi-fast' and 'slow' Welwyn trains for Crossrail 2 such that Thameslink services could all operate fast from Finsbury Park to Welwyn in either direction using a new higher-speed crossover on the down, with a 3 minute stop each way to let a Main Line train overtake and then they follow them out; meaning Welwyn still got a fast Thameslink connection and the Cambridge trains could be accelerated.

In terms of other interventions, I'd suggest turning the US2/US and DS/DS2 platforms at Harringay, Hornsey and Alexandra Palace into islands in each direction and with the through lines then without platform faces; and you could then use the DS and US as 'accelerating' or 'decelerating' lines as far as about the end of the Hornsey Depot (north end) with a DS>DF and UF>US 75mph crossover and 60mph line speeds from Hornsey platforms to Holloway so the main line is a bit less cluttered there with slow turn-outs at Finsbury Park north end. It also creates more flexibility if a train goes 'demic' in one of the platforms and stations still get served.

I'd therefore go for 16tph out of Moorgate using the 717s but with 8tph to Gordon Hill, 4tph to Hertford North and 4tph to Stevenage; the Gordon Hill bay platforms then being put in the 'middle' so as to remove crossing conflict (think Dalston Junction) and then trains being routed round the outsides if travelling through. It would also be the case that some trains (assuming they operate every 3-4 minutes) would miss out the smaller stations (Hertford and Stevenage trains not stopping at Harringay or Hornsey; Gordon Hill trains missing out Grange Park and Stevenage trains missing out Crews Hill and Bayford).

I would effectively push Crossrail 2 to be something like:
-CENTRAL CORE Dalston (Junction and Kingsland) > Essex Road > Kings Cross/St Pancras > Tottenham Court Road > Green Park > Victoria > Clapham Junction > Tooting Broadway > Wimbledon > Raynes Park.
-NORTH BRANCH Welwyn Garden > Hatfield > stations to Alexandra Palace > Hornsey > Harringay > Finsbury Park > Dalston
-EAST BRANCH Chingford > stations to Walthamstow Central > St James Street > Stoke Newington > Dalston

And whilst Raynes Park would be underground (junctions towards Epsom, and another that climbs up to join the Main Line before New Malden), it would be the last point in tunnel before opening out. Assuming peak frequency of 24tph from the Crossrail 2 Core (8tph Chingford, 12tph Welwyn and 4tph Dalston starter), you would have 4tph to Horsham, 4tph to Guildford via Epsom, 4tph terminating at Epsom, 4tph to Chessington South, 4tph to Hampton Court and 4tph to Guildford via Cobham. This would leave the Kingston Loop and Woking trains as Waterloo starters but each would be 4tph (extended Woking to Guildford assuming the flyover is built) and credence given to double-deck trains to provide the necessary capacity.

 

[Bald Rick]

Personally speaking I'd re-build Welwyn Garden such that the Flyover works 'the other way' taking trains over towards the Up Side where stabling could be created. You'd only then need a 'Down ECML' Platform, two through roads, an 'Up ECML Platform', and an island next to that for the Crossrail 2 stuff.

You could legitimately suggest a combination of 'semi-fast' and 'slow' Welwyn trains for Crossrail 2 such that Thameslink services could all operate fast from Finsbury Park to Welwyn in either direction using a new higher-speed crossover on the down, with a 3 minute stop each way to let a Main Line train overtake and then they follow them out; meaning Welwyn still got a fast Thameslink connection and the Cambridge trains could be accelerated.

In terms of other interventions, I'd suggest turning the US2/US and DS/DS2 platforms at Harringay, Hornsey and Alexandra Palace into islands in each direction and with the through lines then without platform faces; and you could then use the DS and US as 'accelerating' or 'decelerating' lines as far as about the end of the Hornsey Depot (north end) with a DS>DF and UF>US 75mph crossover and 60mph line speeds from Hornsey platforms to Holloway so the main line is a bit less cluttered there with slow turn-outs at Finsbury Park north end. It also creates more flexibility if a train goes 'demic' in one of the platforms and stations still get served.

I'd therefore go for 16tph out of Moorgate using the 717s but with 8tph to Gordon Hill, 4tph to Hertford North and 4tph to Stevenage; the Gordon Hill bay platforms then being put in the 'middle' so as to remove crossing conflict (think Dalston Junction) and then trains being routed round the outsides if travelling through. It would also be the case that some trains (assuming they operate every 3-4 minutes) would miss out the smaller stations (Hertford and Stevenage trains not stopping at Harringay or Hornsey; Gordon Hill trains missing out Grange Park and Stevenage trains missing out Crews Hill and Bayford).

I would effectively push Crossrail 2 to be something like:
-CENTRAL CORE Dalston (Junction and Kingsland) > Essex Road > Kings Cross/St Pancras > Tottenham Court Road > Green Park > Victoria > Clapham Junction > Tooting Broadway > Wimbledon > Raynes Park.
-NORTH BRANCH Welwyn Garden > Hatfield > stations to Alexandra Palace > Hornsey > Harringay > Finsbury Park > Dalston
-EAST BRANCH Chingford > stations to Walthamstow Central > St James Street > Stoke Newington > Dalston

And whilst Raynes Park would be underground (junctions towards Epsom, and another that climbs up to join the Main Line before New Malden), it would be the last point in tunnel before opening out. Assuming peak frequency of 24tph from the Crossrail 2 Core (8tph Chingford, 12tph Welwyn and 4tph Dalston starter), you would have 4tph to Horsham, 4tph to Guildford via Epsom, 4tph terminating at Epsom, 4tph to Chessington South, 4tph to Hampton Court and 4tph to Guildford via Cobham. This would leave the Kingston Loop and Woking trains as Waterloo starters but each would be 4tph (extended Woking to Guildford assuming the flyover is built) and credence given to double-deck trains to provide the necessary capacity.

Wow. You’ve just made Crossrail 2 about £50bn.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Wow. You’ve just made Crossrail 2 about £50bn.

You either do it properly, or you don't at all...

 

[Bald Rick]

You either do it properly, or you don't at all...

“Properly” defined as what?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

“Properly” defined as what?

Well the problems of the existing proposed Crossrail 2 route include the use of the WAML (how popular will it be taking everyone’s city commuting route away and replacing it with the West End?) and the way it will surface at Wimbledon. At least if more provision is made for incorporating other routes and possible services and better infrastructure to support same, you can expect better results that impact as little as possible on other services. You can also still complete the 4-tracking of Tottenham to Broxbourne such as to create a true Main Line to Cambridge.

 

[si404]

The WAML locals going to the West End post-CR2 have been completely uncontroversial. The SW locals, on the other hand...

 

[VT 390]

The WAML locals going to the West End post-CR2 have been completely uncontroversial. The SW locals, on the other hand...

Won't there be easier interchange for WAML services at Tottenham Hale for Liverpool Street than having to change at Clapham Junction for Waterloo? I don't know if this is part of the reason why but it could be.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well the problems of the existing proposed Crossrail 2 route include the use of the WAML (how popular will it be taking everyone’s city commuting route away and replacing it with the West End?) and the way it will surface at Wimbledon.

I would guess that replacing a sporadic 2-4tph peak service split between Liverpool St and Stratford with a 12tph+ service to St Pancras / Euston, the West End and Victoria would be very popular. Especially given how many people already change at Tottenham Hale for the Vic Line.

The WAML locals going to the West End post-CR2 have been completely uncontroversial. The SW locals, on the other hand...

Won't there be easier interchange for WAML services at Tottenham Hale for Liverpool Street than having to change at Clapham Junction for Waterloo? I don't know if this is part of the reason why but it could be.

I’d have thought the SWML interchange at Raynes Park or Wimbledon would be rather straightforward. If you need to interchange that is. AIUI there will still be direct trains to Waterloo from almost every Crossrail 2 station on the SWML network.

 

[VT 390]

I’d have thought the SWML interchange at Raynes Park or Wimbledon would be rather straightforward. If you need to interchange that is. AIUI there will still be direct trains to Waterloo from almost every Crossrail 2 station on the SWML network.

Good point I had not thought about the Wimbledon interchange, it may also be possible to change on to the Northern Line at Balham or Tooting (can't remember which one).
I was thinking more about the Chessington, Hampton Court and Shepperton (via Kingston) branches which may loose there direct Waterloo services with CrossRail 2, although the increase in frequency may make up for this.

 

[Bald Rick]

Good point I had not thought about the Wimbledon interchange, it may also be possible to change on to the Northern Line at Balham or Tooting (can't remember which one).
I was thinking more about the Chessington, Hampton Court and Shepperton (via Kingston) branches which may loose there direct Waterloo services with CrossRail 2, although the increase in frequency may make up for this.

Most commuters from Hampton Court already change at Surbiton, so not much change there. If I’ve read the factsheets correctly, the Kingston Loop rounders will stay, as will the Sheppertons via Richmond. So it’s just the Chessington South branch that loses out, but with much better frequency as you say.

In any event something like 50% of all passengers on SWML train approaching London are heading for the West End, and they will all be considerably better off.

 

[si404]

AIUI there will still be direct trains to Waterloo from almost every Crossrail 2 station on the SWML network.

Indeed, though it should also be noted that earlier proposals had far more stations with exclusive CR2 service* and that this state of affairs is only through lobbying of users of such stations who were deeply unhappy to lose their Waterloo service.

*Certainly the whole Kingston loop was implied to lose Waterloo service, and possibly the Epsom line too (with SN service taking over SW service via Leatherhead). In which case it would just have been Clapham Junction, Wimbledon, Surbiton and Twickenham with both Waterloo and CR2 trains.