Crosscountry unexpected settlement demand

[grumpyturnip]

On the 28th July my girlfriend and I needed to travel from Newcastle upon Tyne to Darlington following a cycle ride from Haltwhistle.
I'm not a regular train user so do find navigation of the rail and associated ticketing systems a little daunting especially when tired from a lot of physical exertion.
Upon our approach to Newcastle I bought tickets for our journey through the Trainpal app. We possess a valid 2 together rail card so used this and reserved places for our bikes as part of the booking process for a Crosscountry train service leaving at 17.40. The fare is a reduced to £8.80 (£4.40 each).
We arrived at the station a little later than expected but after bit of mild panic made it to the platform and boarded the train with a few minutes in hand.
Off we went towards Darlington. On our way I noticed the ticket inspector making her way down the train toward us, so I fired up my phone ready to offer our tickets.
It's at this point I realised that the tickets I've bought aren't an online version (every train ticket I've bought through this app have been until now) and should have been collected at the station. I'm still of the impression that it'll be fine as I have the proof on the app that I have paid for tickets.
The ticket inspector arrived and I explain my mistake and show her my ticket booking within the Trainpal app. She says that we're certainly not the first to do this and that we need to fill out a form each and she'll issue us with a ticket so we can leave the station if the turnstiles are closed. She also mentioned something about the ticket office at Darlington but my weary brain doesn't process this. We fill out our forms, hand them back and are duly awarded a ticket each. The inspector moves on down the train and I think no more about it.
We arrive at Darlington station, disembark the train, bikes in tow, and with a need to get our tired bodies home to relax we head to the turnstiles to leave. The turnstiles were down so we just saunter through and head out on our way.
Fast forward and today I've received two identical letters (in separate envelopes) shown below. My girlfriend has also received 2 similar letters. It's quite officious and gives me 14 days from the date of the letter to reply and only in writing. It's dated the 28th August and it's now the 10th of September!
I'm just after advice on how to proceed with this. Apologies for the length of this. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[reb0118]

It may be too late for this, but you should try to get your tickets printed off. Then, after photographing them, return them with proof of your railcards* to the address specified.

I realise that there was probably no railcard issue on the day in question, but there would be no harm in providing those details and there may even be a nuanced benefit to you.

However, you are guilty of an offence by not printing your ticket prior to boarding: even if you had an e-ticket you would have been in a similar situation by not downloading and activating it before travelling.

Out of interest how did you get through the barriers at Newcastle?

 

[grumpyturnip]

Out of interest how did you get through the barriers at Newcastle?

Thanks for your response. That's a great question. The answer to which I'm a bit hazy on. We obviously didn't need to present a ticket so either the barrier was down or there was a way to get to our specific platform without needing to go through a barrier.

 

[AlterEgo]

It was a Sunday. The barriers are often open on a Sunday evening in Newcastle. I think each of the last few times I’ve been through.

 

[WesternLancer]

Presumably if it’s still possible to print the tickets that may be able to do at any station though one with a ticket office might be useful if staff help is also required to try and print them.

 

[Haywain]

even if you had an e-ticket you would have been in a similar situation by not downloading and activating it before travelling.

This is wrong, eTickets do not need to be activated before travelling and in terms of downloading are usually available instantly in an app or attached to a confirmation email.

 

[reb0118]

This is wrong, eTickets do not need to be activated before travelling and in terms of downloading are usually available instantly in an app or attached to a confirmation email.

Yes, you are of course correct, I was thinking of m-tickets (of which I am much more familiar with).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The quick and easy way to deal with this matter is to pay the £109.40 requested. But that is presumably for each passenger, and I would entirely understand the OP being reluctant to hand over £218.40. But it may be the best option, as it's important to understand that technically the OP did commit an offence in that they didn't have a valid ticket on them. So any response to the railway will essentially be asking the railway to allow their better nature to take priority over the rules and laws that require a ticket not just to have been purchased but to be carried.

If the OP does choose to challenge rather than pay, then there's the point that the letter has taken around 12 days to reach the OP - and there's another thread where a letter from IRCAS/ITAL seems to have taken that long. So it seems that at least one batch of post was delayed on its way out of Portsmouth. So in practice, a late reply will probably still be accepted: explain when you received the letter, and that while you are sorry it's late but you are replying as soon as possible.

 

[grumpyturnip]

Thanks for the help. I visited Darlington station and to my surprise the tickets could still be printed, result! They've been sent along with a copy of our rail card the filled out forms and an explanation of what occurred. We'll just wait and see what happens

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the help. I visited Darlington station and to my surprise the tickets could still be printed, result! They've been sent along with a copy of our rail card the filled out forms and an explanation of what occurred. We'll just wait and see what happens

Thanks for update, good that you could get the tickets (proves no one else was given them to use by you for example). Good luck.

 

[grumpyturnip]

A further update.

Sadly, I received a notice that I've been charged with an offence, detailed below. I have 21 days from the 25th October to respond with my plea. Interestingly there's no mention of the information I sent to them. I'm wondering if that's been considered at all or, with it arriving beyond the date they stipulated, has it simply been ignored and court proceedings enacted?
Again any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
GT

 

[WesternLancer]

A further update.

Sadly, I received a notice that I've been charged with an offence, detailed below. I have 21 days from the 25th October to respond with my plea. Interestingly there's no mention of the information I sent to them. I'm wondering if that's been considered at all or, with it arriving beyond the date they stipulated, has it simply been ignored and court proceedings enacted?
Again any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
GT

Given your post #9 of 12 September I would be urgently contacting them (ITAL?) to find out if they received your previous correspondence and copies of tickets and if they had considered them as mitigation or a request to settle the matter out of court.
But...

When you sent that stuff in, your subsequently printed off tickets that you did not have with you to show on the journey - what covering letter did you include? can you upload a copy of it? - what it said is likely to be vital in terms of what you have now had so we need to see a copy of that ideally - ie did you for example specifically ask them to resolve the matter without further action or some such form of words?

This looks like ITAL acting as contractor to Cross Country - but I would think they would still want to settle out of court - if they are prosecuting it won't just be the sums listed in that recent upload you will have to pay because there will be a court fine too and a criminal record. I'm assuming you do not want that.

What is the deadline to return the court notice / SJPN? You need to act urgently ahead of that 21 day period deadline - which you must not miss - to try and seek an out of court settlement with them I suspect, or plead not guilty and see if you can argue your case in court (there are risks and costs associated with that however)

Hopefully others can advise on your options so you can weigh up what best to to do. You need a plan of action ASAP

 

[grumpyturnip]

Given your post #9 of 12 September I would be urgently contacting them (ITAL?) to find out if they received your previous correspondence and copies of tickets and if they had considered them as mitigation or a request to settle the matter out of court.
But...

When you sent that stuff in, your subsequently printed off tickets that you did not have with you to show on the journey - what covering letter did you include? can you upload a copy of it? - what it said is likely to be vital in terms of what you have now had so we need to see a copy of that ideally - ie did you for example specifically ask them to resolve the matter without further action or some such form of words?

This looks like ITAL acting as contractor to Cross Country - but I would think they would still want to settle out of court - if they are prosecuting it won't just be the sums listed in that recent upload you will have to pay because there will be a court fine too and a criminal record. I'm assuming you do not want that.

What is the deadline to return the court notice / SJPN? You need to act urgently ahead of that 21 day period deadline - which you must not miss - to try and seek an out of court settlement with them I suspect, or plead not guilty and see if you can argue your case in court (there are risks and costs associated with that however)

Hopefully others can advise on your options so you can weigh up what best to to do. You need a plan of action ASAP

Thanks for your response. It's possible my girlfriend has the covering letter pictured, she wrote the mitigating circumstances but she's presently away and I don't wish to burden her with this when she's on r and r. She returns this weekend so I'll thrash out a plan of action upon her return. I do have a first draft on my phone and that contains all of the points I made it just lacks a little in nicer English language that my girlfriend added. I'll put it up on here when I have a little more time. However, we didn't ask for an out of court resolution just laid out the facts of the mitigating circumstances.
This latest letter from crosscountry has many pages to it beyond that contained in my previous post. I'll upload those too. It includes a statement from the 'ticket inspector' that is quite amazing in it's simplicity and doesn't come close to the actual conversation that was had between us.
The way it reads is that this is going to court and I have to plead guilty or not guilty. I absolutely don't want a criminal record of course, especially for a less than £10 rail ticket that I actually paid for. I think this whole situation is absolutely bonkers.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your response. It's possible my girlfriend has the covering letter pictured, she wrote the mitigating circumstances but she's presently away and I don't wish to burden her with this when she's on r and r. She returns this weekend so I'll thrash out a plan of action upon her return. I do have a first draft on my phone and that contains all of the points I made it just lacks a little in nicer English language that my girlfriend added. I'll put it up on here when I have a little more time. However, we didn't ask for an out of court resolution just laid out the facts of the mitigating circumstances.
This latest letter from crosscountry has many pages to it beyond that contained in my previous post. I'll upload those too. It includes a statement from the 'ticket inspector' that is quite amazing in it's simplicity and doesn't come close to the actual conversation that was had between us.
The way it reads is that this is going to court and I have to plead guilty or not guilty. I absolutely don't want a criminal record of course, especially for a less than £10 rail ticket that I actually paid for. I think this whole situation is absolutely bonkers.

Yes it is crazy I agree. But it looks to me like you probably have SJPN court papers.

I think you urgently need to try and find out why ITAL didn’t accept any of the points you made in a reply to your letter and inform you they were taking it to court.

They are not obliged to do that but it usually seems to work that way.

I fear you are on a pathway that’s worse then the original payment request from them that was essentially an out of court settlement offer.

Wait over weekend to see what other advice you get but do upload all the other papers you have got taking care to obscure personal details.

 

[grumpyturnip]

The mitigating circumstances message I included in my original response was a better worded version of this. The content was pretty much the same....

"Dear Sir or Madam,

I boarded the train thinking I had an e-ticket, all the previous tickets I'd bought using the Trainpal app had been. It was only when the inspector asked me to produce my ticket that I became aware of my mistake in not printing the ticket out at the station.

I explained this to the ticket inspector and was told to fill out a form and she would issue me with a replacement ticket so my partner and I could exit the station.

I was told to get the tickets printed out at the ticket office. Please find enclosed the tickets that I had printed from the machine after the journey.

Your letter only arrived at my house on the 10th of September giving me no time to get this back to you so I've sent it at my earliest convenience."

This was sent recorded next day delivery which we have been advised arrived the following day. They wanted it on the 10th September (the day I received it). It was sent on the 11th and arrived with them on the 12th.

I've attached the documentation I received a few days ago.....

Hopefully it's in the order that I uploaded it. So, there it is, there does appear to still be a settlement out of court option. I'm really in two minds as how to proceed. Do I fight it as I'm really not happy that, certainly from appearance, they haven't considered the information I sent them and the "ticket inspector" could have easily cleared this up rather than being incredibly vague in her statement. Or do I pay the out of court settlement with its 33% reduction and just put it behind me?

Answers on a postcard please. I don't know if this matters but the ticket inspector has the time the incident occurred incorrect by around 2 hours.

 

[Hadders]

See the page that's headed 'Settlement Offer' in red.

They are offering you two choices:

- Pay an out of court settlement of £175 and the outstanding fare of £9.40 and that will be the end of the matter
or
- Have the case considered by a court

I assue you'd rather pay the settlement to make the matter go away.

This case demondtrates why it is very imporatnt that we see all paperwork relating to each case.

Once the matter is settled I would consider complaining to CrossCountry about what happened.

 

[WesternLancer]

The mitigating circumstances message I included in my original response was a better worded version of this. The content was pretty much the same....

"Dear Sir or Madam,

I boarded the train thinking I had an e-ticket, all the previous tickets I'd bought using the Trainpal app had been. It was only when the inspector asked me to produce my ticket that I became aware of my mistake in not printing the ticket out at the station.

I explained this to the ticket inspector and was told to fill out a form and she would issue me with a replacement ticket so my partner and I could exit the station.

I was told to get the tickets printed out at the ticket office. Please find enclosed the tickets that I had printed from the machine after the journey.

Your letter only arrived at my house on the 10th of September giving me no time to get this back to you so I've sent it at my earliest convenience."

This was sent recorded next day delivery which we have been advised arrived the following day. They wanted it on the 10th September (the day I received it). It was sent on the 11th and arrived with them on the 12th.

I've attached the documentation I received a few days ago.....

Hopefully it's in the order that I uploaded it. So, there it is, there does appear to still be a settlement out of court option. I'm really in two minds as how to proceed. Do I fight it as I'm really not happy that, certainly from appearance, they haven't considered the information I sent them and the "ticket inspector" could have easily cleared this up rather than being incredibly vague in here statement. Or do I pay the out of court settlement with its 33% reduction and just put it behind me?

Answers on a postcard please. I don't know if this matters but the ticket inspector has the time the incident occurred incorrect by around 2 hours.

My immediate comment on your response that was sent is that whilst it explains what happened it is missing an ‘ask’ ie what you wanted to happen next. Eg ‘please appreciate we had tickets fully paid for and the railway has made no financial loss. I’d be gratful if the sum requested could therefore be voided’ or some such.

But I’m not sure if things have gone beyond this now.

It maybe that your only other option is to plead not guilty and be prepared to go to court to make your case to the magistrate. There is risk associated with this of being found guilty and yet higher costs to you.

Some of the experts on court related cases might have valuable comments to make.

You have my sympathy in all this.

 

[AlterEgo]

It maybe that your only other option is to plead not guilty and be prepared to go to court to make your case to the magistrate. There is risk associated with this of being found guilty and yet higher costs to you.

The OP is unquestionably guilty of a strict liability Bylaw 18 offence so this would be bad advice.

The best option is to pay the settlement in full and take it up with CrossCountry later.

 

[furlong]

Get in touch with them again immediately to chase up what happened to your last response and request a fresh review of your case.

They've a bit of a cheek pursuing you for a full £9.40 when you'd already paid your fare in advance (£4.40) - what makes them think they're entitled to receive TWO fares for the journey, assuming your railcard was valid and you were on the correct train? It really does look as if they haven't considered the full circumstances properly or your response and incorrectly disregarded what the ticket inspector told you (of which they should have their own record but quite possibly don't). (If you hadn't committed the alleged crime, you'd have collected the already-paid-for tickets before boarding and shown them, so on what basis are they asking a criminal court to award them any compensation as the alleged crime left them no better or worse off? In both cases - crime or no crime - the fare was already paid.)

And I think most people outside railway prosecutions would consider this to be a completely unreasonable over-reaction to an understandable mistake that you already corrected along the lines of what you were asked to do by collecting the tickets and sending them to them. Irrespective of the outcome, you might consider highlighting what they are doing here through your MP and/or the press/social media: using the criminal law to hound honest fare-paying passengers for totally disproportionate settlements over technicalities and innocent mistakes that are partly caused by the railway's own complexities and inconsistencies needs to end!

 

[WesternLancer]

Get in touch with them again immediately to chase up what happened to your last response and request a fresh review of your case.

They've a bit of a cheek pursuing you for a full £9.40 when you'd already paid your fare in advance (£4.40) - what makes them think they're entitled to receive TWO fares for the journey, assuming your railcard was valid and you were on the correct train? It really does look as if they haven't considered the full circumstances properly or your response and incorrectly disregarded what the ticket inspector told you (of which they should have their own record but quite possibly don't). (If you hadn't committed the alleged crime, you'd have collected the already-paid-for tickets before boarding and shown them, so on what basis are they asking a criminal court to award them any compensation as the alleged crime left them no better or worse off? In both cases - crime or no crime - the fare was already paid.)

And I think most people outside railway prosecutions would consider this to be a completely unreasonable over-reaction to an understandable mistake that you already corrected along the lines of what you were asked to do by collecting the tickets and sending them to them. Irrespective of the outcome, you might consider highlighting what they are doing here through your MP and/or the press/social media: using the criminal law to hound honest fare-paying passengers for totally disproportionate settlements over technicalities and innocent mistakes that are partly caused by the railway's own complexities and inconsistencies needs to end!

Frustratingly the ‘simplest’ option is probably to pay the sum demanded.

But any other approach has to be along the lines set out in your post and has to be done urgently. But with an awareness that it may not work as @AlterEgo points out, so not without an element of risk to it.

 

[grumpyturnip]

Your help with this has been excellent, thank you. A couple of you have mentioned getting in touch with them immediately, which I think is sterling advice. However, there doesn't appear to be a phone number, that isn't an automated line, to call them. This is one of the biggest frustrations with this whole business. Does anyone have a contact number or point me in the direction where I could find one?
TIA
GT

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2024 ==

They've a bit of a cheek pursuing you for a full £9.40 when you'd already paid your fare in advance (£4.40) - what makes them think they're entitled to receive TWO fares for the journey, assuming your railcard was valid and you were on the correct train?

Yes, both the railcard was valid and we were on the correct train

 

[island]

However, there doesn't appear to be a phone number, that isn't an automated line, to call them.

That is intentional.

Your options are to pay, or to take your chances in court.

They are not required to, and clearly do not wish to, discuss the matter.

 

[LowLevel]

Not particularly helpful to your case but as a ticket inspector of quite a long time these situations do make me wince. Presumably non refundable advance tickets from the price paid, bought from a particularly clunky retailer and it becomes a legal matter dealt with by a contractor despite there being no realistic possibility of the train operator actually making any loss.

I've seen quite a lot of these cases of late with people expecting e-tickets and getting collect at the station despite having a phone full of e-tickets purchased before to show me - I have little sympathy in many cases but I don't think I'd have it in me to write someone up formally for that knowing what the likely consequences are from looking at some cases on here

As for the witness statement, I suspect they're pre-populated based on the fields completed in the report filed and that apart from signing them after the event the RPI probably had little to do with the actual form of words.

 

[WesternLancer]

Your help with this has been excellent, thank you. A couple of you have mentioned getting in touch with them immediately, which I think is sterling advice. However, there doesn't appear to be a phone number, that isn't an automated line, to call them. This is one of the biggest frustrations with this whole business. Does anyone have a contact number or point me in the direction where I could find one?
TIA
GT

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2024 ==


Yes, both the railcard was valid and we were on the correct train

You would have to write and post it next day delivery. This is what I would suggest you do.

These teams are not going to be resourced staff wise to have people to talk these cases through on the phone I suspect. It's too time consuming for them and I doubt they care. It's deliberate. It's not customer services.

I realise how frustrating this is, but they have you 'over a barrel' and sadly a case like yours is low hanging fruit when you have the government telling them to 'clamp down on fare evasion'.

 

[grumpyturnip]

Well, as the alternative potential of a criminal record wasn't too palatable, my girlfriend and I have paid the settlement fee to be free of court proceedings.
As I've not had any word that my side of the story has been considered and I think especially in light of the very recent announcement by the government that the unfair handling of passengers who have made genuine mistakes is being looked into I do need to, at the very least, complain to Crosscountry Trains about how my situation was handled and, in my view, the disproportionate action taken.
Can any of you point me in the direction of the first steps I need to take to do this and what I should include in my first communication?
Kind regards
GT

 

[railpigeon]

You really should get in touch with the media. Radio 5, BBC website, Times Radio, local MP, your local paper…. The iron is hot at the moment with unfair penalties - strike now. You have been fined nearly £200 for the offence of “having bought tickets online before travelling”. Surely headline stuff.

It’s a bit like being stoped by a policeman whilst driving in a built up area, being asked how fast you were going, replying “45 km/h officer” and him issuing a fine “because you should have replied in imperial measurements”.

If you had had the appetite to have gone to a court, I wonder whether the magistrates would have laughed it out of court. To be guilty they would need to be convinced of both a guilty act and a guilty mind.

Sure, you did not have a little orange credit-card size ticket in you hand when the inspector came round, so there is a ‘guilty act’ under byelaw 18.

But a ‘guilty mind’? An intent to offend? How? Where? You paid for the tickets, you volunteered yourself to the inspector, your railcard was valid, you were polite to all parties and were given the impression that it was just a mistake and that it had been resolved on the spot. For goodness sake, you even followed the rules to the extent that you reserved spaces for the bikes!

If you had selected “e-ticket” rather than “collect before departure” from the app all would have been well. I cannot see how that error constitutes an offence.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you had had the appetite to have gone to a court, I wonder whether the magistrates would have laughed it out of court. To be guilty they would need to be convinced of both a guilty act and a guilty mind.

No, they wouldn't. The Bylaws - just like the speeding example you gave! - are strict liability.

But a ‘guilty mind’? An intent to offend? How? Where? You paid for the tickets, you volunteered yourself to the inspector, your railcard was valid, you were polite to all parties and were given the impression that it was just a mistake and that it had been resolved on the spot. For goodness sake, you even followed the rules to the extent that you reserved spaces for the bikes!

All incorrect and irrelevant I'm afraid.

 

[dcbwhaley]

No, they wouldn't. The Bylaws - just like the speeding example you gave! - are strict liability.


All incorrect and irrelevant I'm afraid.

So. If after getting on the train with a valid ticket in your wallet you are mugged and beaten up Ss you lie concussed and bleeding on the floor you are liable to prosecution? Does the magistrate not have the discretion to dismiss the case?
The law certainly is a small equine animal

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So. If after getting on the train with a valid ticket in your wallet you are mugged and beaten up Ss you lie concussed and bleeding on the floor you are liable to prosecution? Does the magistrate not have the discretion to dismiss the case?
The law certainly is a small equine animal

More to the point, it's open to the potential prosecuter (i.e. the railway) to not take the case to court in the first place. So the question is not 'could you be prosecuted for this' (answer 'yes') but 'would you be prosecuted for this?' (answer 'no').

 

[railpigeon]

But you clean yourself up, catch your connection and are then asked for your (stolen) ticket, which you cannot produce. The inspector hears your excuse, has 'heard it all before' and thus prosecution begins: strict liability is strict liability.

Any flexibility then?

(Thank you Alter Ego for the 'strict liability' correction above. I'm just keen to better understand its ramifications; I'm also happy to start a new thread.)

I suppose there would be some justice if the mugger was then caught falling foul of byelaw 21.2, using a ticket when he was not the person for whom it had been bought.