CrossCountry Prosecution

[LadsDad]

Hi, my lad bought a day return ticket from Manchester Pic to Southampton Airport weeks in advance of the trip to visit a University.
He has a 16-25 Railcard and mistakenly bought a 16-17 ticket, he had just turned 18, 2 months previously.
He paid for insurance as well, so was not intentionally trying to avoid any payments.

He bought this through the xc app, where his railcard and his personal details are stored.
On the way back from Southampton, he ticket was checked and that's when he realised that he had the wrong ticket. (Railcard)
The difference in price was £12 and the enforcement officer said XC would be in touch to collect the difference.

Next thing we get is a letter from ITAL, the debt collection agency asking for £526 (full price ticket, although we can not find this priced ticket anywhere) and £100.
We sent in a full explanation to ITAL and also contacted XC to explain and submit an official complaint.
Both have been acknowledged and explanation refused.

He now has court summons, the fee had increased to £150, with a 33% discount for early payment.


The threats of criminal record are being made against him and he is currently applying for positions with companies, which would not accept this.

He genuinely made a mistake, has no options to make good the payment other than the letter from ITAL.
We are very willing to go to court and put our case forward.

Just wondering if anyone else has had this and what was the outcome?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presume the booked tickets were issued as split tickets in order to add up to £67.75 after the incorrect railcard discount was then applied? And the XC unpaid fare calculation reflects this, rather than them asking for the through Anytime Day Single fare, maybe x 2? Not sure where the split point would have been though.

@LadsDad. Can you advise what tickets were issued? Seems one was an Off Peak Return and the other an Off Peak Day Return.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, my lad bought a day return ticket from Manchester Pic to Southampton Airport weeks in advance of the trip to visit a University.
He has a 16-25 Railcard and mistakenly bought a 16-17 ticket, he had just turned 18, 2 months previously.
He paid for insurance as well, so was not intentionally trying to avoid any payments.

He bought this through the xc app, where his railcard and his personal details are stored.
On the way back from Southampton, he ticket was checked and that's when he realised that he had the wrong ticket. (Railcard)
The difference in price was £12 and the enforcement officer said XC would be in touch to collect the difference.

Next thing we get is a letter from ITAL, the debt collection agency asking for £526 (full price ticket, although we can not find this priced ticket anywhere) and £100.
We sent in a full explanation to ITAL and also contacted XC to explain and submit an official complaint.
Both have been acknowledged and explanation refused.

He now has court summons, the fee had increased to £150, with a 33% discount for early payment.


The threats of criminal record are being made against him and he is currently applying for positions with companies, which would not accept this.

He genuinely made a mistake, has no options to make good the payment other than the letter from ITAL.
We are very willing to go to court and put our case forward.

Just wondering if anyone else has had this and what was the outcome?

welcome - you have my sympathy over what has happened.

It's bad luck you didn't come to this forum earlier on in the process to see if experts here could advise on how to minimise the problem before it escalated, which it seems to have done.

You do raise a good question about the fare being asked for.

In these sorts of cases the railway does tend to seek the undiscounted Anytime Single Fare for the journey in question as the replacement cost for a ticket when someone is travelling on a ticket that is not valid for them to use. This is partly because that fare is punitively expensive and can thus serve as a disincentive to not paying the correct fare to start with (which unfortunately is something plenty of people do as you can imagine)

The Anytime Fare from Manchester to Southampton Airport is £163.90 single (route not via London) - all UK fares are listed here if you want to peruse

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks. Full details of all British rail fares shown, with built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

so there is a question about why they are asking for £526. One explanation might be that your son has used the wrong railcard discount before (the 16-17 Saver gives 50% off the fare, not 34% with the 16-25 Railcard, so we do see people on here who deliberately do this...) ie they are charging for other fares wrongly discounted as well perhaps?

Did your son check his on line ticket booking records to see if this happened on other travels - either by mistake or intentionally?
The Railway company (or ITAL on their behalf) will likely have checked his on line ticket buying records for other occasions so it's possible they have factored this into the sum they demanded.

You could (or could have but may still be able to) ask for a breakdown of the sum.

What you were offered was essentially an out of court settlement in the letter you uploaded. It might help for background if you can post a copy of the response you sent (in reply to their invitation to present any mitigating circumstances), and what they then sent subsequently.

I suspect your priority now must be to prevent this going to court if you can achieve that at this late stage.

You probably need to ask them if they will re-instate the opportunity to settle it out of court and drop the prosecution action that it sounds like they have commenced.

You will get the best advice on here to help you achieve that, but it may now be difficult to get the sum demanded reduced.

As @Mcr Warrior has asked, more detail on the tickets originally bought and perhaps copies of any other correspondence would be helpful to see

Also - please advise on when the court summons has to be responded to - as that is the time window you have to resolve this now court papers are issued.

Unfortunately it is almost 100% certain that if it went to court your son would be found guilty, face a court fine, costs and also receive a criminal record because it is a 'strict liability offence'.

 

[LadsDad]

Copy of email sent to XC after a lengthy telephone conversation. This is what they requested, so they could investigate:

Hi, thanks for your time taking my call and listening to what we had to say.

My son, xxxx has travelled many times using his railcard via the app and never had any issues previously.

He booked a return ticket for 8th March to Southampton from Manchester Piccadilly, to visit a university and had also paid for insurance on the ticket as he is very cautious with these types of things. With insurance and booking fee he paid £74.83.

He didn’t think anything of it, until on the return leg of the journey his ticket was checked by a member of your team and it was noted that the app had let him buy a 16-17 yr old ticket, instead of the 16-25 he should have had. The ticket office told him not to worry, cross-country would be in touch with him to pay the difference.



The correct ticket should have been £90.15

His 18th Birthday was on xxxxx, so this would have been his first use of the railcard/app since he turned 18.

25th March, he receives a letter on Cross-Country headed paper from ITAL, stating he is being prosecuted for fare evasion and that unless he can provide proof that he had the correct railcard, he would need to pay the fare of £526.50 and their admin fee of £100.

Without my knowledge, he did email back ITAL, as he didn’t want to pay the phone charges and he received an email back on 23rd April, stating that he had to pay the fine and fee.

There are a few points that need to be raised.

Firstly, we are not refusing to pay the correct fare.

However, why did the App let xxxx buy a ticket that was not suitable, using the railcard he had installed in the app, as it also has his full details including his date of birth.

The discussion with the ticket checker, suggested, xxxx would have to pay the difference in the fare, however he has received a fare of £526.50 through the post.

The ticket that was produced made no reference to age, or railcard use. Just 1 Passenger.

Upon appeal with ITAL, it seems like this was an automated response, without any real investigation.



Having spoke with ITAL today regarding this matter, they have confirmed that a return ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton is £526.50.

However, I have been online today to check prices. The most expensive same day return ticket would be £152.40 with the cheapest being £135.50 and this is not using a Railcard. So where has £526.50 come from?

ITAL have also confirmed this is being investigated internally.

xxxx is studying intensely for his A-Levels and is already very stressed with his studies as you can imagine. Having threats being made towards him by ITAL of court prosecution, is not what he needs right now.

Hopefully you can see this was a genuine (mistake?) error with the app which allowed xxxx to incorrectly make a purchase for a ticket that was seemingly invalid.

We attach copies of the following for your records.

Railcard
Ticket
Initial ITAL Letter
Responding ITAL email
Proof of todays ticket prices x 3. Today, tomorrow & Saturday.

Any assistance you can offer with this would be appreciated.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the additional info

However, I have been online today to check prices. The most expensive same day return ticket would be £152.40

That is an off peak ticket fare - albeit one valid to travel on any off peak times train and can be bought up to a few moments before boarding the train. It's not the most expensive ticket - it's just the most expensive ticket at the time you looked I suspect

The Anytime Single fare is the price they will use in these scenarios. They are using the return fare as your son was stopped on the way home (so by default used the wrong ticket outbound too but no one noticed)

So where has £526.50 come from?

This is a good question. The most expensive standard class fare is an Anytime Rtn (via London so not using cross country anyway) at £506.40 for Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Central. The equivalent 'Not Via London' fare is £327.60 and I believe that is the fare they might have been expected to charge (also not exactly cheap....)

You ask questions about the Trainline App but Cross Country /ITAL won't care about that (this is one of the problems buying tickets from a third party in my personal view - you might possibly be in a stronger position to debate it if you bought the ticket from Cross Country themselves but this is water under the bridge). But as some point in the transaction your son must have applied the incorrect Railcard to the app - I can't shed much light on that as I never use Trainline.

You say staff stated he would have to pay the difference in fare. Unfortunately this is often reported here and the view here is that its a common 'conflict avoidance' strategy of staff to prevent situations escalating. Unless they genuinely believe that paying the difference is something that the railway back office prosecutions team offer, which they almost certainly don't if it gets to that stage, from what we see here.

The ticket that was produced made no reference to age, or railcard use. Just 1 Passenger.

Can you upload the actual ticket if you are sure of this - I would expect it to detail the Railcard if one was applied - what you uploaded earlier on does not look like a ticket - it looks like a booking confirmation (a ticket booked on line would usually have a scannable Aztec barcode)

But the problem is you / your son is not really in a position to debate this with them as they don't care, the only option is to debate it with the magistrates in court (where as I have explained your son would still be found guilty) - but it is generally considered better not to get to court in the first place.

They have you over a barrel.

Other experts here might be able to suggest further options. I suggest watching your thread for 24 hours to help you weigh up the advice people will give on what you can do.

As I say you really do have my sympathy but I think this is going to be a difficult situation to resolve than in any other way than paying the sum they are demanding.

But I do hope others might have other ideas.

 

[ikcdab]

Thanks for the additional info



That is an off peak ticket fare - albeit one valid to travel on any off peak times train and can be bought up to a few moments before boarding the train. It's not the most expensive ticket - it's just the most expensive ticket at the time you looked I suspect

The Anytime Single fare is the price they will use in these scenarios. They are using the return fare as your son was stopped on the way home (so by default used the wrong ticket outbound too but no one noticed)

This is a good question. The most expensive standard class fare is an Anytime Rtn (via London so not using cross country anyway) at £506.40 for Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Central. The equivalent 'Not Via London' fare is £327.60 and I believe that is the fare they might have been expected to charge (also not exactly cheap....)

You ask questions about the Trainline App but Cross Country /ITAL won't care about that (this is one of the problems buying tickets from a third party in my personal view - you might possibly be in a stronger position to debate it if you bought the ticket from Cross Country themselves but this is water under the bridge). But as some point in the transaction your son must have applied the incorrect Railcard to the app - I can't shed much light on that as I never use Trainline.

You say staff stated he would have to pay the difference in fare. Unfortunately this is often reported here and the view here is that its a common 'conflict avoidance' strategy of staff to prevent situations escalating. Unless they genuinely believe that paying the difference is something that the railway back office prosecutions team offer, which they almost certainly don't if it gets to that stage, from what we see here.


Can you upload the actual ticket if you are sure of this - I would expect it to detail the Railcard if one was applied - what you uploaded earlier on does not look like a ticket - it looks like a booking confirmation (a ticket booked on line would usually have a scannable QR code)

But the problem is you / your son is not really in a position to debate this with them as they don't care, the only option is to debate it with the magistrates in court (where as I have explained your son would still be found guilty) - but it is generally considered better not to get to court in the first place.

They have you over a barrel.

Other experts here might be able to suggest further options. I suggest watching your thread for 24 hours to help you weigh up the advice people will give on what you can do.

As I say you really do have my sympathy but I think this is going to be a difficult situation to resolve than in any other way than paying the sum they are demanding.

But I do hope others might have other ideas.

The OP says he did indeed buy through the xc app, not Trainline. So what is the slightly stronger position he might be in?

 

[Alex C.]

Has he ever used the 16-17 railcard discount previously for train tickets?

You mention he had just turned 18 but even when he was 17 he wouldn't have been entitled to the 16-17 discount unless he had that specific railcard.

 

[WesternLancer]

The OP says he did indeed buy through the xc app, not Trainline. So what is the slightly stronger position he might be in?

It would be if there was some sort of fault with the app. Which the op says they believe there is. See post #4

It may be an argument to have after settling the matter with cross country as both the operator of the app retailing the ticket as well as the train operator and the employer of ital as contractor and indeed the inspector on the train in an effort to get some sort of refund.

I fear those that it won’t be an app fault but an error made by the ticket purchaser.

 

[enyoueffsea]

It would be if there was some sort of fault with the app. Which the op says they believe there is. See post #4

It may be an argument to have after settling the matter with cross country as both the operator of the app retailing the ticket as well as the train operator and the employer of ital as contractor and indeed the inspector on the train in an effort to get some sort of refund.

I fear those that it won’t be an app fault but an error made by the ticket purchaser.

Possibly a point to raise if this was early on, but in the current situation, to be blunt, XC won’t care at all even if there was an unlikely issue with the app.

Ultimately you’re still responsible for checking your ticket before boarding.

This is a good question. The most expensive standard class fare is an Anytime Rtn (via London so not using cross country anyway) at £506.40 for Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Central. The equivalent 'Not Via London' fare is £327.60 and I believe that is the fare they might have been expected to charge (also not exactly cheap....)

I don’t think they’ve calculated the settlement correctly and this may be worth asking them. But again, the OP is not in a strong position at all to be negotiating here and they’ll need to convince XC to reinstate the settlement to begin with, telling them to knock £200 off it is likely to be fruitless.

It’s also possible it is a correct figure based on previous tickets purchased. The app only tends to auto select a railcard if you have used it previously, I suspect this means there has been other purchases with the incorrect railcard.

My only advice to the OP is to get back onto XC and plead for the settlement to be reinstated and then make an immediate payment. Otherwise this is only likely to result in a conviction.

 

[WesternLancer]

Possibly a point to raise if this was early on, but in the current situation, to be blunt, XC won’t care at all even if there was an unlikely issue with the app.

Ultimately you’re still responsible for checking your ticket before boarding.

Yes. The app issue isn’t going to resolve this now.

I don’t think they’ve calculated the settlement correctly and this may be worth asking them. But again, the OP is not in a strong position at all to be negotiating here and they’ll need to convince XC to reinstate the settlement to begin with, telling them to knock £200 off it is likely to be fruitless.

It’s also possible it is a correct figure based on previous tickets purchased. The app only tends to auto select a railcard if you have used it previously, I suspect this means there has been other purchases with the incorrect railcard.

My only advice to the OP is to get back onto XC and plead for the settlement to be reinstated and then make an immediate payment. Otherwise this is only likely to result in a conviction.

And this probably needs to be done in writing.

 

[furlong]

Was any paperwork provided at the time of the incident? If so please upload this. (Not personal details, but stations, prices.)
Whereabouts on the journey did this all happen? North of Reading I presume?

Unless First Class is involved, self-evidently the amount asked for is wildly incorrect. You'll need to get through to XC to correct this either directly or with some insistence via ITAL.

I shouldn't really get your hopes up, but given that you were told you'd be asked to pay the difference the actual amount should have been agreed with you on the spot and be on paperwork if you were handed any. Often there'd be the option to pay the amount due on the spot (but presumably funds weren't available in your situation and an invoice was preferred - they don't seem to mention the extra £100 they'll add on).
I can construct one method of reaching the amount of £52.65 so my first hypothesis would be a decimal point error - something we've seen happen before so you need to get this checked.

(For that journey, the split used is obviously at Reading. Day returns cover longer distances in the South and there's a significant fare jump between Reading and Oxford. Calculations of the amount due in these situations are often performed sympathetically with some simplifications in the customer's favour rather than strictly according to the rules. So just think how a train manager might in reality calculate the excess - only deal with the current ticket for the single journey segment where this happens, disregard the pence - often happens - so that's £107 due, deduct what was already paid disregarding the fact it was a return £54.35, difference is £52.65. Then somewhere later along the chain the decimal point shifted.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2025 ==

Suggestion - reply to ITAL that based on the conversation at the time, the difference in fare you were expecting to pay was closer to 52.65 and please would they check with CrossCountry that there hasn't been a transcription error with the decimal point. Otherwise for them to please ask CrossCountry to provide a full justification of precisely how an excessive figure that cannot bear any relation to the true amount of their loss was arrived at. I'd suggest you indicate a willingness to pay the £52.65. (Later, if they did indeed get the decimal point wrong, you might use that to challenge their admin fee too.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2025 ==

(While you might consider £12 to be the right amount, the train companies don't work that way - I've shown how £52.65 is a typical sort of amount someone co-operative might be charged by a train manager in the circumstances you described. ITAL is then simply collecting the figure set out at the time. In reality you'd need to take it to court to make the argument for £12 - which you almost certainly don't want to do.)

 

[WesternLancer]

Was any paperwork provided at the time of the incident? If so please upload this. (Not personal details, but stations, prices.)
Whereabouts on the journey did this all happen? North of Reading I presume?

Unless First Class is involved, self-evidently the amount asked for is wildly incorrect. You'll need to get through to XC to correct this either directly or with some insistence via ITAL.

I shouldn't really get your hopes up, but given that you were told you'd be asked to pay the difference the actual amount should have been agreed with you on the spot and be on paperwork if you were handed any. Often there'd be the option to pay the amount due on the spot (but presumably funds weren't available in your situation and an invoice was preferred - they don't seem to mention the extra £100 they'll add on).
I can construct one method of reaching the amount of £52.65 so my first hypothesis would be a decimal point error - something we've seen happen before so you need to get this checked.

(For that journey, the split used is obviously at Reading. Day returns cover longer distances in the South and there's a significant fare jump between Reading and Oxford. Calculations of the amount due in these situations are often performed sympathetically with some simplifications in the customer's favour rather than strictly according to the rules. So just think how a train manager might in reality calculate the excess - only deal with the current ticket for the single journey segment where this happens, disregard the pence - often happens - so that's £107 due, deduct what was already paid disregarding the fact it was a return £54.35, difference is £52.65. Then somewhere later along the chain the decimal point shifted.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2025 ==

Suggestion - reply to ITAL that based on the conversation at the time, the difference in fare you were expecting to pay was closer to 52.65 and please would they check with CrossCountry that there hasn't been a transcription error with the decimal point. Otherwise for them to please ask CrossCountry to provide a full justification of precisely how an excessive figure that cannot bear any relation to the true amount of their loss was arrived at. I'd suggest you indicate a willingness to pay the £52.65. (Later, if they did indeed get the decimal point wrong, you might use that to challenge their admin fee too.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2025 ==

(While you might consider £12 to be the right amount, the train companies don't work that way - I've shown how £52.65 is a typical sort of amount someone co-operative might be charged by a train manager in the circumstances you described. ITAL is then simply collecting the figure set out at the time. In reality you'd need to take it to court to make the argument for £12 - which you almost certainly don't want to do.)

I found this rather difficult to follow in terms of how you have calculated the fares (and I suspect I'm more familiar with rail fares than the OP.)

I'm not saying you are wrong but I think if you are suggesting the OP makes this point to ITAL then it might help them if you can set out clearly (eg a list) of which fares
from where to where
by what fare name
and what price totals up to £52.65,
and how that differs (if it does) from the fares the OPs son actually booked as detailed in the upload earlier in the thread that the OP referred to as a 'ticket'

As we know, these subcontracted companies like ITAL / IRCAS that carry out fares investigation / prosecution for rail companies seem to be much more difficult to deal with than the ones that are in house prosecutions teams so I'd think that any points to make to them need to be really clearly put.

As I said originally it's bad luck the OP didn't find there way to the forum right at the start of this, because things are now in a more tricky position as it seems court papers have been served.

 

[Haywain]

@LadsDad Please be aware that if you (or your son) follow the above advice there is a fairly strong possibility that the response will be along the lines of "See you in court". It is reasonable to ask how the figure has been arrived at but I doubt that you will be looked upon kindly in telling them how much you think you should be paying. There is next to no chance that a letter has been sent out with a misplaced decimal point as we know full well that the admin fee alone for a matter such as this is likely to be in the area of £100 to £150.

 

[AlterEgo]

Where was the split? Exactly which tickets were held? This will help us figure out how the fare has been calculated and see what can be done about that.

However the ball isn’t in the OP’s court. Their son committed a criminal offence; a strict liability one, yes, but pushing back against this will result in the matter going to the magistrates’ court. They will apply the law; there’s no “well, seems a bit harsh, let’s throw it out”, it’ll be a conviction for a Bylaw 18 offence which will be spent after a year. The sentence will be a fine, and the prosecution costs, plus a surcharge, plus the avoided fare will still need to be paid.

@Haywain has given the most sensible advice in the preceding post.

 

[furlong]

I'm suggesting the fare due was calculated by the train manager at the time, a UFN for the stated excess, (and showing one way to arrive at the figure) and then ITAL is simply enforcing what was passed on to them with no knowledge or interest in how it was calculated. In these circumstances how it was calculated is irrelevant - the train manager sets the figure which is the one that is then enforced and clearly could not have intentionally set the quoted figure. We have seen errors with decimal points before when a handwritten amount is entered into a computer. (Or it could be an amount read from one system and entered manually into a different computer system.) The £100 admin included in the paperwork is on top of this - they are currently asking for £626.50. The split was evidently Reading - the numbers match precisely.