CrossCountry Prosecution article (Guardian)

[Greenback]

Too many people seem to take offences like fare evasion and illegal parking lightly. They seem to think it's all a bit of a laugh, that they'll never get caught and even if they do, they have the skills to talk their way out of it with no more than a slap on the wrist.

Until the day they are caught bang to rights, that is, when they are suddenly horrified at the potential consequences, realise that they have been extremely silly, and then plead for lenience because they had a moment of madness, have never done it before, and then produce a huge list of excuses for why they did whatever they did!

I'm not referring to this or any particular incident, by the way, it's just a general observation on human behaviour.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I've heard that some German fare evaders in Germany switch to English if confronted by an inspector and that sometimes works (although probably not in Munich or Berlin)

 

[Geronimo]

Too many people seem to take offences like fare evasion and illegal parking lightly. They seem to think it's all a bit of a laugh, that they'll never get caught and even if they do, they have the skills to talk their way out of it with no more than a slap on the wrist.

Until the day they are caught bang to rights, that is, when they are suddenly horrified at the potential consequences, realise that they have been extremely silly, and then plead for lenience because they had a moment of madness, have never done it before, and then produce a huge list of excuses for why they did whatever they did!

This, as well as other anecdotal evidence (this forum, the guardian comments on the article under discussion) strongly suggests that a significant proportion of passengers are NOT aware of the consequences of fare dodging.
Whether increased awareness of the penalties would have an effect is of course not clear.
On one hand it looks like the literature on situational crime prevention suggests that increased risks of detection is more effective that increased penalties (I haven't found awareness being discussed though, but only did a very cursory trawl). On the other hand, there is evidence that fare evasion rates correlate well with measures combining inspection rates AND fine/fare ratios, and that on average, passengers act rationally (again, no discussion of awareness, but I think it is implicit there).

Whether the rail industry would gain anything from raising the awareness of the severity of the punishments linked to fared dodging, I don't know (probably complex PR and marketing considerations at play there).

 

[tony6499]

That is one of the major problems is that when people get caught, even on the serious cases i've dealt with such as using counterfeit tickets that most people think that if they simply offer to pay the fare they avoided on that occasion it will go away.

Even 30 years ago things were the same and on my first court appearance the offender still hadn't realised the seriousness of what he was being dealt with.

It's a shame there isn't more consistency amongst TOCS on dealing with this.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Whether the rail industry would gain anything from raising the awareness of the severity of the punishments linked to fared dodging, I don't know (probably complex PR and marketing considerations at play there).

ATW have done exactly that with their recent 'S'MUG poster campaign.

 

[Greenback]

ATW have done exactly that with their recent 'S'MUG poster campaign.

Indeed they have, and credit to them for that. But I am unconvinced that many people take a lot of notice of it!

 

[Geronimo]

ATW have done exactly that with their recent 'S'MUG poster campaign.

That's good news. A link to what it looks like (I hadn't seen it before)
http://www.rkhoward.com/Arriva-Trains-Wales-Smug-Mug


It looks like there are other designs too.

It doesn't seem to mention the possibility of criminal record though? (Which, from various stories on here seem to be the main concern).

 

[Greenback]

That's good news. A link to what it looks like (I hadn't seen it before)
http://*******.com/qbqyaxo

It looks like there are other designs too.

It doesn't seem to mention the possibility of criminal record though? (Which, from various stories on here seem to be the main concern).

The posters I've seen have no reference to the possibility of a criminal record. They seem to be relying on possible financial penalties, which is partly why I think few people take much notice, as they think if they are caught they can wriggle their way out of it with a couple of excuses.

 

[jon0844]

Rather too many people in penalty fare areas seem to be of the belief that a penalty fare is all they need to pay if caught. Court is presumably, in their minds, only for people who have done something 'illegal' like faking a ticket or whatever.

So, that's probably why there are so many posts in the Disputes section from people who are quite upset that they weren't able to pay a penalty fare and get on their way.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The posters I've seen have no reference to the possibility of a criminal record. They seem to be relying on possible financial penalties, which is partly why I think few people take much notice, as they think if they are caught they can wriggle their way out of it with a couple of excuses.

The reference to 'prosecuted & fined' is clear enough though you're probably right, many will not immediately make the link to a criminal record

 

[Greenback]

I suspect that the wording 'caught, prosecuted and fined' isn't clear enough for some. The emphasis is on the financial aspect, and not on acquiring a criminal record.

Given that some passengers see only the money they can save every day set against what is regarded as a low chance of detection and conviction, the cost benefit analysis will remain their primary means of assessing risk. I would prefer to see big red letters using the words Criminal Record. As we have seen on here so many people caught without a valid ticket expect to simply pay a fine, and these ATW posters seem to reinforce the financial side, which most who come here looking for advice aren't that bothered about in relation to the effect on their career or prospects.

Mind you, some of the 'beauts' in the Valleys probably won't care about a criminal record, as they probably have one already, so maybe the campaign is aimed at them rather than commuters?

 

[Clip]

Rather too many people in penalty fare areas seem to be of the belief that a penalty fare is all they need to pay if caught. Court is presumably, in their minds, only for people who have done something 'illegal' like faking a ticket or whatever.

So, that's probably why there are so many posts in the Disputes section from people who are quite upset that they weren't able to pay a penalty fare and get on their way.

I am at odds with a lot of people at work and probably most on here but its my view that if it was instant prosecution for all instances like no railcard,no ticket, incorrect fare(adult on child) and such like then the amount of fare evasion would be far far less than it is.

It will never happen and thats a real shame.

 

[LateThanNever]

This, as well as other anecdotal evidence (this forum, the guardian comments on the article under discussion) strongly suggests that a significant proportion of passengers are NOT aware of the consequences of fare dodging.
Whether increased awareness of the penalties would have an effect is of course not clear.
On one hand it looks like the literature on situational crime prevention suggests that increased risks of detection is more effective that increased penalties (I haven't found awareness being discussed though, but only did a very cursory trawl). On the other hand, there is evidence that fare evasion rates correlate well with measures combining inspection rates AND fine/fare ratios, and that on average, passengers act rationally (again, no discussion of awareness, but I think it is implicit there).

Whether the rail industry would gain anything from raising the awareness of the severity of the punishments linked to fared dodging, I don't know (probably complex PR and marketing considerations at play there).

Trouble is there are so many occasions where people are willing to pay but there is no opportunity. An acquaintance went from Newton Abbot to Exeter and no ticket office or barriers at either end was open and nobody came round to take fares. Same on the late return home. So the thinking is by them - and me! - if the railway cannot be bothered to make efforts to collect the fare then why should the passenger be bothered - never mind potentially be committing a crime? And having done it on that journey when it happens from Stalybridge to Huddersfield unsurprisingly they think the same - and why wouldn't you?

 

[Geronimo]

Trouble is there are so many occasions where people are willing to pay but there is no opportunity. An acquaintance went from Newton Abbot to Exeter and no ticket office or barriers at either end was open and nobody came round to take fares. Same on the late return home. So the thinking is by them - and me! - if the railway cannot be bothered to make efforts to collect the fare then why should the passenger be bothered - never mind potentially be committing a crime? And having done it on that journey when it happens from Stalybridge to Huddersfield unsurprisingly they think the same - and why wouldn't you?

No TVM at Newton Abbot? Pretty sure there are some at Exeter.

 

[455driver]

At Newton Abbot all the TVMs might be inside the ticket office, there are definitely some available at Exeter st Davids though so your friend would have been guilty of walking past an opportunity to pay on the return trip.

 

[SWTCommuter]

FWIW, the TVM at Newton Abbot is just outside the main entrance

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.529952,-3.599767,3a,75y,91.54h,84.94t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sJoaAi1qoN2gZRnZqHKYN8Q!2e0?hl=en

 

[455driver]

FWIW, the TVM at Newton Abbot is just outside the main entrance

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.529952,-3.599767,3a,75y,91.54h,84.94t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sJoaAi1qoN2gZRnZqHKYN8Q!2e0?hl=en

So he is guilty of walking past opportunities to pay at both ends!

 

[Tibbs]

So he is guilty of walking past opportunities to pay at both ends!

Can you buy a ticket from a different start point at that station TVM?

 

[455driver]

Your point exactly?
He caught the train at Newton Abbot walking past a ticket machine, why would it need to issue tickets from other stations!

 

[Tibbs]

Your point exactly?
He caught the train at Newton Abbot walking past a ticket machine, why would it need to issue tickets from other stations!

My point is, if he can't buy his ticket at the arriving TVM, then he has only missed one opportunity to pay.

You specifically made the point that he had missed 2 opportunities to pay, so I was curious if he really had.

So he is guilty of walking past opportunities to pay at both ends!

AFAIK, only Southern and some FCC ticket machines have the ability to dispense tickets from different points of origin.

 

[bb21]

I think the second opportunity 455driver was referring to was at Exeter St Davids on the return journey, reading his other posts.

 

[Tibbs]

I think the second opportunity 455driver was referring to was at Exeter St Davids on the return journey, reading his other posts.

Based on his quote of the link to the google street view, I made the conclusion that he was talking about the finishing station.

Oh, and of course based on his usual unnecessarily belligerent reply, which didn't correct my conclusion.

Maybe he could clarify?

 

[MyFriendMary]

Soo why didn't your friend use the TVM at Newton Abbot? :unsure:

 

[Tibbs]

Soo why didn't your friend use the TVM at Newton Abbot? :unsure:

We still need to establish whether the TVM sells tickets that originate from somewhere other than Newton Abbott.

Do you know?

As far as I can see, buying a 'wrong' ticket for the same price would negate an RoRA prosecution, but wouldn't prevent a Byelaw 18 offence.

 

[Haywain]

We still need to establish whether the TVM sells tickets that originate from somewhere other than Newton Abbott.

Do you know?

How is that relevant? LateThanNever's aquaintance travelled from Newton Abbot, so would have required a ticket from Newton Abbot where, we have established, there is a TVM that was accessible as it is outside of the station building.

 

[Tibbs]

How is that relevant? LateThanNever's aquaintance travelled from Newton Abbot, so would have required a ticket from Newton Abbot where, we have established, there is a TVM that was accessible as it is outside of the station building.

Ah forgive me, my understanding, based on 455's post, was that Newton Abbott was the destination and not the origin.

 

[Greenback]

I agree that 455driver is referring to the two opportunities to pay being firstly at Newton Abbot on the outward portion, and the second at Exeter St Davids on the return segment.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am at odds with a lot of people at work and probably most on here but its my view that if it was instant prosecution for all instances like no railcard,no ticket, incorrect fare(adult on child) and such like then the amount of fare evasion would be far far less than it is.

It will never happen and thats a real shame.

Probably because that kind of approach would scare all the passengers away - even the honest ones.

The strict liability bylaws are an anachronism and simple don't work effectively. Criminalising simple mistakes isn't really the way society should be going, is it?

 

[Haywain]

Probably because that kind of approach would scare all the passengers away - even the honest ones.

The strict liability bylaws are an anachronism and simple don't work effectively. Criminalising simple mistakes isn't really the way society should be going, is it?

But most fare evasion is not simple mistakes, unless you call the 'I'll only pay if I have to' attitude a simple mistake.

 

[Clip]

Probably because that kind of approach would scare all the passengers away - even the honest ones.

The strict liability bylaws are an anachronism and simple don't work effectively. Criminalising simple mistakes isn't really the way society should be going, is it?

But as haywain has stated most are not simple mistakes are they? If we actually got tougher on fare evasion then even the most hardcore of them would think twice.