CrossCountry new franchise in 2027

[James Kevill]

I was thinking about an idea about CrossCountry franchise would change on the 16th November 2027 and it will make changes for the railway, routes, services and rolling stocks. It would extend some of the services, inherited the Bombardier Voyager fleets and they would either be converted into Bi-Mode Trains or they would be replaced by the new build trains to run on the CrossCountry services. And CrossCountry would either keep the Class 170 Turbostar fleets and the local services or they would transfer them to East Midlands Railway and West Midlands Railway so the CrossCountry would become the pure Intercity rail operator. the franchise would also bring back the services such as Bournemouth to Edinburgh and Manchester to Guildford.

Rolling Stocks
Class 220 Voyager 34x4
Class 221 Super Voyager 40x5, 4x4

Services
Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley
Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Piccadilly
Bournemouth to Manchester Piccadilly
Reading to Newcastle
Cardiff Central to Edinburgh Waverley

Extensions
Penzance from Plymouth
Cardiff Central, Exeter St David's, Paignton, Plymouth and Penzance from Bristol Temple Meads
Edinburgh Waverley and Glasgow Central from Newcastle
Dundee and Aberdeen from Edinburgh Waverley
Southampton Central from Reading

New Services
Plymouth to Chester
Bournemouth to Chester
Portsmouth Harbour to Manchester Piccadilly
Portsmouth Harbour to Edinburgh Waverley
Brighton to Manchester Piccadilly
Brighton to Edinburgh Waverley
Plymouth to Manchester Airport
Bournemouth to Manchester Airport
Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Airport

Extensions
Glasgow Queen Street, Stirling, Perth and Inverness from Edinburgh Waverley
Portsmouth Harbour, Portsmouth & Southsea and Brighton to Reading
Liverpool Lime Street, Preston, Blackpool North, Lancaster, Carlisle and Glasgow Central from Manchester Piccadilly
Wrexham General, Llandudno, Bangor and Holyhead from Chester
Swansea, Carmarthen Pembroke and Pembroke Dock from Cardiff Central
Weymouth and Poole from Bournemouth

 

[JonathanH]

I was thinking about an idea about CrossCountry franchise would change on the 16th November 2027 and it will make changes for the railway, routes, services and rolling stocks.

It is all very well thinking in terms of fantasy about what might happen with CrossCountry in the future, but what you set out is all incredibly unlikely.

You could have titled your post "What is the most extreme CrossCountry network you could imagine?"

 

[Clarence Yard]

There is unlikely to be a new franchise in 2027.

 

[D365]

And what of the Class 170 operations? Which operator(s) are these transferred to?

 

[JonathanH]

And what of the Class 170 operations? Which operator(s) are these transferred to?

Cardiff seems to be included in the list of services a number of times for longer distance services. However, the original post suggests they are just offloaded.

And CrossCountry would either keep the Class 170 Turbostar fleets and the local services or they would transfer them to East Midlands Railway and West Midlands Railway so the CrossCountry would become the pure Intercity rail operator. the franchise would also bring back the services such as Bournemouth to Edinburgh and Manchester to Guildford.

Quite where the threshold lies on being a 'pure Intercity rail operator' isn't well defined.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was thinking about an idea about CrossCountry franchise would change on the 16th November 2027 and it will make changes for the railway, routes, services and rolling stocks.

How many times has this been done before? It just looks like a combination of about 15 years of fantasy XC threads, with all the usual suspects.

 

[JonathanH]

How many times has this been done before? It just looks like a combination of about 15 years of fantasy XC threads, with all the usual suspects.

Well at least some of the original post in this thread could have been copied from here.

Ideas for the new CrossCountry franchise

I was thinking about ideas for the future CrossCountry franchise such as new trains, new routes and extension of the existing services. Any ideas for this new franchise which is due to start in 18th October this year? (If the franchise is delayed or cancelled)

www.railforums.co.uk

and here

CrossCountry New and Extended Services

If CrossCountry has all of the 34 Class 220 Voyagers and 44 Class 221 Super Voyagers, it would be enough to make a new services and extend some of the existing services. Here's the list of the service that I made: InterCity Services Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley Reading to Newcastle Central...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[CarrotPie]

I was thinking about an idea about CrossCountry franchise would change on the 16th November 2027 and it will make changes for the railway, routes, services and rolling stocks. It would extend some of the services, inherited the Bombardier Voyager fleets and they would either be converted into Bi-Mode Trains or they would be replaced by the new build trains to run on the CrossCountry services. And CrossCountry would either keep the Class 170 Turbostar fleets and the local services or they would transfer them to East Midlands Railway and West Midlands Railway so the CrossCountry would become the pure Intercity rail operator. the franchise would also bring back the services such as Bournemouth to Edinburgh and Manchester to Guildford.

Rolling Stocks
Class 220 Voyager 34x4
Class 221 Super Voyager 40x5, 4x4

Services
Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley
Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Piccadilly
Bournemouth to Manchester Piccadilly
Reading to Newcastle
Cardiff Central to Edinburgh Waverley

Extensions
Penzance from Plymouth
Cardiff Central, Exeter St David's, Paignton, Plymouth and Penzance from Bristol Temple Meads
Edinburgh Waverley and Glasgow Central from Newcastle
Dundee and Aberdeen from Edinburgh Waverley
Southampton Central from Reading

New Services
Plymouth to Chester
Bournemouth to Chester
Portsmouth Harbour to Manchester Piccadilly
Portsmouth Harbour to Edinburgh Waverley
Brighton to Manchester Piccadilly
Brighton to Edinburgh Waverley
Plymouth to Manchester Airport
Bournemouth to Manchester Airport
Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Airport

Extensions
Glasgow Queen Street, Stirling, Perth and Inverness from Edinburgh Waverley
Portsmouth Harbour, Portsmouth & Southsea and Brighton to Reading
Liverpool Lime Street, Preston, Blackpool North, Lancaster, Carlisle and Glasgow Central from Manchester Piccadilly
Wrexham General, Llandudno, Bangor and Holyhead from Chester
Swansea, Carmarthen Pembroke and Pembroke Dock from Cardiff Central
Weymouth and Poole from Bournemouth

Did you buy a new pack of crayons recently? It all seems very pie in the sky.

 

[Energy]

There is unlikely to be a new franchise in 2027.

Exactly. I'd have hoped GBR would have progressed somewhat by then.

Plymouth to Chester
Bournemouth to Chester

Why? ORR statistics don't indicate high passenger numbers and both these journeys can be easily done with a single change at Birmingham New St.

Destination	Journeys
Bristol Temple Meads	4,209
Bath Spa	1,245
Bristol Parkway	1,049
Exeter St David's	621
Cheltenham Spa	519
Plymouth	490
Taunton	320
Swindon (Wilts)	280
Gloucester	260
Bournemouth	250

Description: ORR Data matrix for the journeys between Chester and various destinations from April 2022 to March 2023.

Portsmouth Harbour to Manchester Piccadilly

The end-to-end passenger numbers for this were 485 total journeys last year, and I wouldn't consider 1 change at Southampton prohibitive. For flows between intermediate stations I'm failing to see a journey which isn't addressed by existing XC routes.

Portsmouth Harbour to Edinburgh Waverley

To be fair, going from the South West to the North East requires at least one change, often two, or heading through London. I don't think XC to Portsmouth Harbour is the answer though.

Brighton to Manchester Piccadilly
Brighton to Edinburgh Waverley

Brighton is fortunate that Thameslink can get it into St Pancras in 1h15, its a very easy change for either of these services.

Plymouth to Manchester Airport
Bournemouth to Manchester Airport
Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Airport

Why? You'd have to run a similar service to now but stop short of Manchester Picadilly. I can't see great numbers of people going to Manchester Airport when it isn't their local airport, though some will be going for the area not the airport.

I don't see why the additional voyagers should go on new services rather than strengthening the existing network.

TLDR XC's routes are fine, they just have inadequate rolling stock. As has been said in previous threads.

 

[The Planner]

Where are all the paths and rolling stock coming from for this? Nearly a full bingo if Paddington or Ramsgate got included.

 

[Anonymous10]

I was thinking about an idea about CrossCountry franchise would change on the 16th November 2027 and it will make changes for the railway, routes, services and rolling stocks. It would extend some of the services, inherited the Bombardier Voyager fleets and they would either be converted into Bi-Mode Trains or they would be replaced by the new build trains to run on the CrossCountry services. And CrossCountry would either keep the Class 170 Turbostar fleets and the local services or they would transfer them to East Midlands Railway and West Midlands Railway so the CrossCountry would become the pure Intercity rail operator. the franchise would also bring back the services such as Bournemouth to Edinburgh and Manchester to Guildford.

Rolling Stocks
Class 220 Voyager 34x4
Class 221 Super Voyager 40x5, 4x4

Services
Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley
Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Piccadilly
Bournemouth to Manchester Piccadilly
Reading to Newcastle
Cardiff Central to Edinburgh Waverley

Extensions
Penzance from Plymouth
Cardiff Central, Exeter St David's, Paignton, Plymouth and Penzance from Bristol Temple Meads
Edinburgh Waverley and Glasgow Central from Newcastle
Dundee and Aberdeen from Edinburgh Waverley
Southampton Central from Reading

New Services
Plymouth to Chester
Bournemouth to Chester
Portsmouth Harbour to Manchester Piccadilly
Portsmouth Harbour to Edinburgh Waverley
Brighton to Manchester Piccadilly
Brighton to Edinburgh Waverley
Plymouth to Manchester Airport
Bournemouth to Manchester Airport
Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Airport

Extensions
Glasgow Queen Street, Stirling, Perth and Inverness from Edinburgh Waverley
Portsmouth Harbour, Portsmouth & Southsea and Brighton to Reading
Liverpool Lime Street, Preston, Blackpool North, Lancaster, Carlisle and Glasgow Central from Manchester Piccadilly
Wrexham General, Llandudno, Bangor and Holyhead from Chester
Swansea, Carmarthen Pembroke and Pembroke Dock from Cardiff Central
Weymouth and Poole from Bournemouth

Why would xc operate to Swansea- Carmarthen- Pembroke dock that is a tfw route and not likely to see xc. Swansea however in future would be nice if it did get a service. As for North Wales coast again that's already served by a tfw service doing the exact route.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well at least some of the original post in this thread could have been copied from here.

Ideas for the new CrossCountry franchise

I was thinking about ideas for the future CrossCountry franchise such as new trains, new routes and extension of the existing services. Any ideas for this new franchise which is due to start in 18th October this year? (If the franchise is delayed or cancelled)

www.railforums.co.uk

and here

CrossCountry New and Extended Services

If CrossCountry has all of the 34 Class 220 Voyagers and 44 Class 221 Super Voyagers, it would be enough to make a new services and extend some of the existing services. Here's the list of the service that I made: InterCity Services Plymouth to Edinburgh Waverley Reading to Newcastle Central...

www.railforums.co.uk

Well spotted, it did look a bit familiar…

 

[James Kevill]

Exactly. I'd have hoped GBR would have progressed somewhat by then.


Why? ORR statistics don't indicate high passenger numbers and both these journeys can be easily done with a single change at Birmingham New St.

Destination	Journeys
Bristol Temple Meads	4,209
Bath Spa	1,245
Bristol Parkway	1,049
Exeter St David's	621
Cheltenham Spa	519
Plymouth	490
Taunton	320
Swindon (Wilts)	280
Gloucester	260
Bournemouth	250

Description: ORR Data matrix for the journeys between Chester and various destinations from April 2022 to March 2023.


The end-to-end passenger numbers for this were 485 total journeys last year, and I wouldn't consider 1 change at Southampton prohibitive. For flows between intermediate stations I'm failing to see a journey which isn't addressed by existing XC routes.

To be fair, going from the South West to the North East requires at least one change, often two, or heading through London. I don't think XC to Portsmouth Harbour is the answer though.

Brighton is fortunate that Thameslink can get it into St Pancras in 1h15, its a very easy change for either of these services.

Why? You'd have to run a similar service to now but stop short of Manchester Picadilly. I can't see great numbers of people going to Manchester Airport when it isn't their local airport, though some will be going for the area not the airport.

I don't see why the additional voyagers should go on new services rather than strengthening the existing network.

TLDR XC's routes are fine, they just have inadequate rolling stock. As has been said in previous threads.

Ok. I guess it's not worth it then. It's just the idea I made up.

 

[D365]

Ok. I guess it's not worth it then. It's just the idea I made up.

We were just wondering what problem you are trying to solve.

 

[Energy]

Ok. I guess it's not worth it then. It's just the idea I made up.

We were just wondering what problem you are trying to solve.

Indeed, new ideas are welcome here though they should have an issue they are trying to solve.

An interesting outcome of this is that South West - North East connectivity is currently quite difficult.

 

[JonathanH]

Ok. I guess it's not worth it then. It's just the idea I made up.

Listing a load of places and saying trains should run between them at unknown frequencies doesn't really make for the start of an interesting discussion, because it doesn't say why you feel it is important that those connections are established or how they should be.

An everywhere to everywhere network simply isn't feasible, and many of today's patterns are constrained by effective use of rolling stock, infrastructure, traincrew knowledge and established passenger flows

It could be more worthwhile if you explained how in your view it would be better to have such services, the issues it would solve, or provided more reasoned arguments. If the CrossCountry network was to be as disparate as you envisage, it would be way more complex than today's operation. How would this be managed, how would the staff transfers be made, what other services would need to be removed from the network?

There is definitely a place for speculative discussion and debate about a wide range of ideas but the original post didn't explain how your ideas make things better, and consider the priority CrossCountry or other services should have on the timetable plan. There are only so many trains which can run through Birmingham New Street each hour

Expansionist ideas aren't really something that is being encouraged by the paymasters for the railway at present and many people take the view that the most reliable railway is one where there is some degree on standardisation in timetables and pathing through the day.

 

[Calum1]

Is there a way of switching things round a bit from what we have now
E.g
Main routes
1tph Cardiff to Edinburgh via Leeds (2 hourly Glasgow) Dundee and Aberdeen once or twice a day.
1tph Plymouth to Manchester or Liverpool
1tph Bristol to Nottingham
1tph Bournemouth to Manchester or Liverpool
1tph Reading to Newcastle via Doncaster

 

[Fermiboson]

Is there a way of switching things round a bit from what we have now
E.g
Main routes
1tph Cardiff to Edinburgh via Leeds (2 hourly Glasgow) Dundee and Aberdeen once or twice a day.
1tph Plymouth to Manchester or Liverpool
1tph Bristol to Nottingham
1tph Bournemouth to Manchester or Liverpool
1tph Reading to Newcastle via Doncaster

This would, far as I can tell, involve many reversals at Birmingham. I don’t know how bad this is but it will surely have a negative effect on the amount of capacity left for everyone else. It also leaves out the Leicester/Cambridge services.

 

[Mag_seven]

As we have numerous threads that speculate about various aspects of the Cross Country "franchise" I don't think we really need another one.