Crosscountry & Gloucester

[43106]

Both were direct to Gloucester and both surprised me that they went via Leeds, which, showing that it's been a while since I last went on a train to the north east also surprised me because I though they went from Sheffield to York via Doncaster.

At the time of writing, there's 2 trains per hour (2tph) between Birmingham and Newcastle. Half go via Leeds and half went via Doncaster. This wasn't always the case, as ALL Newcastle - Birmingham services went via Pontefract, avoiding Leeds and Doncaster. There were seperate Leeds - Birmingham services, but this was all in BR days.

How many crosscountry trains actually stop here? Is it just the odd one or two or just those that originate in Bristol?

The ONLY XC services now that serve Gloucester are the Cardiff - Nottingham Turdostars. There are now NO Bristol - Birmingham XC services that call at Gloucester. Again, in BR days, there used to be about 1tph in each direction. (I am talking about Mon-Fri only. I dunno what things are like at weekends.)
Reversing a train does take time, and I personally hate it happening, but in some places, it's impossible to avoid - Gloucester, Reading, Carmarthen, Carstairs, Birmingham New Street are examples, but with a bit of decent planning and organisation, this could be minimised, especially at Birmingham.
Gloucester is a major population centre that is extremely close to a main line. It deserves an InterCity service (XC) at least every hour in each direction, though matters could be improved with an extra platform.

 

[tigerroar]

It was the Gloucester townspeople who closed the line because the level crossings held them up in their cars.

It would've been lovely to keep that loop but it had to be done, it would cause horrendous delays today.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Gloucester is a major population centre that is extremely close to a main line. It deserves an InterCity service (XC) at least every hour in each direction, though matters could be improved with an extra platform.

Pedantic I know, but it isn't very close, it runs through Gloucester, the line is at the top of my street and I live in "town".

The Gloucester Citizen has more often than not a letter or more about building a new station here, which has been mooted for as long as we've been without Eastgate and the Tuffley loop but has yet to happen and probably never will.

 

[Wyvern]

Unfortunately it was all at the whim of three different companies back in nineteenth century Gloucester and was never planned.

Far be it for me to brag but the Derby councillors insisted that three companies into Derby all used the same station and two of them met end to end.

Derby was, of course, very railway minded because they had a lot of goods to transport and needed coal bringing in. Nottingham had the River Trent and a perfectly good canal system

 

[Greenback]

I don't think there's any doubt that more trains would stop at Gloucester if they didn't have to reverse. However, they do have to reverse and it is not going to be realistic to send all Bristol to birmingham services in and out. The time penalty will have implications on pathing and on diagramming.

You cna't really compare Gloucester to Reading. The latter is bigger, has a University and attracts thousands of visitors every year for the shopping and festivals.

 

[sonic2009]

I don't think there's any doubt that more trains would stop at Gloucester if they didn't have to reverse. However, they do have to reverse and it is not going to be realistic to send all Bristol to birmingham services in and out. The time penalty will have implications on pathing and on diagramming.

You cna't really compare Gloucester to Reading. The latter is bigger, has a University and attracts thousands of visitors every year for the shopping and festivals.

Gloucester has a university campus

 

[Zoe]

As I said in another thread, it was very short sighted to close the Tuffley loop. Having to reverse is one of the main reasons trains do not stop at Gloucester.

 

[Eagle]

Probably been said before, but here's the main reason you can't compare Gloucester with Reading:

Places you can reach from Reading that you can't from Oxford or Basingstoke
Swindon, Chippenham, Newbury, Hungerford, Wokingham, Ascot, Staines, Richmond, Guildford (apart from that one XC), Dorking, Redhill, Gatwick and Heathrow (via the RailAir coach).

Places you can reach from Gloucester that you can't from Cheltenham
...erm, none.

Simple, Reading is unmissable, Gloucester isn't.

 

[laird]

The missing part for Gloucester has for me to be the long talked of station to the South of the triangle of junctions, serving Quedgley. Had this been built it may well have encouraged Cross Country to call there as a connecting point for Gloucester and the Stroud Valley stations.
Or perhaps a station at Stonehouse Midland Road allowing a short walk to the remaining Stonehouse station would surfice as a place to serve Gloucester from.

Reading is ever so slowly growing its rail network, the routes to the West of the town have popular commuting stations as does the line toward Waterloo. The South has Green Park station due to be constructed at some point but Reading East Parkway station which would serve Northern Earley, East Reading and the Thames Valley Park business park (on the site of the old Earley Power Station sidings) is missing to make a useful cross town network.

 

[bnm]

None of this is the fault of DB/Arriva CrossCountry. You need to go back in time to the days of the Strategic Rail Authority and Virgin running the franchise. It was those two that were instrumental in seeing Gloucester all but removed from the (old) Cross Country network.

The ONLY XC services now that serve Gloucester are the Cardiff - Nottingham Turdostars. There are now NO Bristol - Birmingham XC services that call at Gloucester.

That should be NEARLY NO for accuracy:

2000 Bristol Temple Meads - Birmingham New Street calls Gloucester 2036
2112 Birmingham New Street - Bristol Temple Meads calls Gloucester 2202

 

[burty76]

Exactly the same issue that plagues Worcester - the 10/15 minute extra journey time isnt justifiable.
I would argue that Worcester has a slightly bigger justificaton to be served by some XC due to the very infrequent service to Cheltenham and beyond. A train every 2 hours is not enough.
But this could be solved by extending a few Nottingham - Birmingham trains to Gloucester via Worcester.

 

[Class172]

Exactly the same issue that plagues Worcester - the 10/15 minute extra journey time isnt justifiable.
I would argue that Worcester has a slightly bigger justificaton to be served by some XC due to the very infrequent service to Cheltenham and beyond. A train every 2 hours is not enough.
But this could be solved by extending a few Nottingham - Birmingham trains to Gloucester via Worcester.

I don't get why they haven't yet - lots of people go to Cheltenham Spa from my area

 

[tigerroar]

Exactly the same issue that plagues Worcester - the 10/15 minute extra journey time isnt justifiable.
I would argue that Worcester has a slightly bigger justificaton to be served by some XC due to the very infrequent service to Cheltenham and beyond. A train every 2 hours is not enough.
But this could be solved by extending a few Nottingham - Birmingham trains to Gloucester via Worcester.

If we're playing the comparison game then Worcester can't be compared with Gloucester as the line goes through here but misses Worcester by a few miles. As a passenger you can see houses from parts of Hardwicke and Quedgeley all the way through to Churchdown as you pass through Gloucester yet don't stop.

I've always thought that there should be a station built at the old Dowmac works in Quedgeley to serve the south of the City and provide a better option for the Stroud valleys but if we can't get support for one at the Triangle then we won't get one anywhere else!

 

[LexyBoy]

If the XC network were to be split into a two-tier system with proper inter-city trains only stopping at major cities and the current service pattern being made further into a regional network, then Gloucester should have its service reinstated. However, it’s just not worth the time penalty at the moment, since as others have said it’s an easy connexion at Cheltenham, and Gloucester still has direct Brum/Brizzle services.

Additionally, for many who would drive or take the bus to the station, it would be just as easy to travel to Cheltenham in the first place.

I can’t say I agree with the idea of having a station for intercity services on the triangle – it would be a bit far out of the city centre for my liking and having two stations with different services would be confusing for passengers. If we were going to have more stations, I’d rather see halts at Barton Street, Tuffley and Churchdown (which could be a P&R off the M5 for both cities) and an improved Cheltenham-Bristol local, which would improve connexions with XC as well as being a boost for local transport.

Also, Reading>Gloucester .

 

[burty76]

If we're playing the comparison game then Worcester can't be compared with Gloucester as the line goes through here but misses Worcester by a few miles. As a passenger you can see houses from parts of Hardwicke and Quedgeley all the way through to Churchdown as you pass through Gloucester yet don't stop.

I've always thought that there should be a station built at the old Dowmac works in Quedgeley to serve the south of the City and provide a better option for the Stroud valleys but if we can't get support for one at the Triangle then we won't get one anywhere else!

I agree that Gloucester is a spur off the main line, while Worcester is a whole loop. However with the reversal required at Gloucester, the time penalty to serve either city is roughly the same, approx 15 minutes, which is why XC are reluctant to serve either.

Though I do think theres an argument to stop some of the Manchester - Bristol trains at Worcester/Gloucester. Some of these trains extend to Paignton and they serve Weston - almost identical to Worcester in that its a loop off the main line with some sections of single track, and adds 15 mins to the journey.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Though I do think theres an argument to stop some of the Manchester - Bristol trains at Worcester/Gloucester. Some of these trains extend to Paignton and they serve Weston - almost identical to Worcester in that its a loop off the main line with some sections of single track, and adds 15 mins to the journey.

Manchester-Bristol extensions to the West Country, Monday-Friday:

Southbound: 3 to Paignton; 1 to Plymouth. One of the Paignton trains runs via Weston
Northbound: 2 from Playmouth; 3 from Paignton; 1 from Exeter St Davids. One of the Paignton trains runs via Weston

A diversion via Weston adds FIVE minutes only, according to the passenger timetable.

 

[burty76]

Manchester-Bristol extensions to the West Country, Monday-Friday:

Southbound: 3 to Paignton; 1 to Plymouth. One of the Paignton trains runs via Weston
Northbound: 2 from Playmouth; 3 from Paignton; 1 from Exeter St Davids. One of the Paignton trains runs via Weston

A diversion via Weston adds FIVE minutes only, according to the passenger timetable.

Not quite true. There are 2 northbound services through Weston and 1 southbound.
The southbound via Weston leaves Temple Meads at 11.15 and gets to Taunton at 12.00 (45 mins). The standard time for direct trains to Taunton is 32 mins.

Similarly the 2 northbound trains via Weston do Taunton - Bristol in 43 and 45 minutes. The direct trains take 33.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Not quite true. There are 2 northbound services through Weston and 1 southbound.
The southbound via Weston leaves Temple Meads at 11.15 and gets to Taunton at 12.00 (45 mins). The standard time for direct trains to Taunton is 32 mins.

Similarly the 2 northbound trains via Weston do Taunton - Bristol in 43 and 45 minutes. The direct trains take 33.

That maay well be the case overall, I was just taking that from the Manchester-Bristol servcices that you mentioned, not every service from the South West. I doubt it adds 12 minutes - it's only 77 chains longer plus the 4 minute calling time via Weston!

 

[burty76]

That maay well be the case overall, I was just taking that from the Manchester-Bristol servcices that you mentioned, not every service from the South West. I doubt it adds 12 minutes - it's only 77 chains longer plus the 4 minute calling time via Weston!

Its timetabled for 12/13 mins longer via weston, presumably to take into account the slower line speed, the stop at the station itself and any pathing issues on the single line sections.
It would be possible to do Birmingham - Worcester - Bristol in 1hr33, only a few mins longer than the direct route at present. But in practice it would be about 1h45 for the reasons listed above.

 

[tigerroar]

I agree that Gloucester is a spur off the main line, while Worcester is a whole loop. However with the reversal required at Gloucester, the time penalty to serve either city is roughly the same, approx 15 minutes, which is why XC are reluctant to serve either.

Though I do think theres an argument to stop some of the Manchester - Bristol trains at Worcester/Gloucester. Some of these trains extend to Paignton and they serve Weston - almost identical to Worcester in that its a loop off the main line with some sections of single track, and adds 15 mins to the journey.

The thinking behind what these services are all about is quite bizarre. I don't know how many CC trains run past the top of my street every day but for every single one of them to stop at just Cheltenham between Bristol Parkway and Birmingham New Street is ridiculous. At the end of the day they're just glorified stopping services just on a longer route, they aren't there to break records.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Maybe because Cheltenham serves 112,000 residents, is used by 1,600,000 people a year, and provides connections for its lesser neighbour, South Wales and Swindon!

 

[The Planner]

The thinking behind what these services are all about is quite bizarre. I don't know how many CC trains run past the top of my street every day but for every single one of them to stop at just Cheltenham between Bristol Parkway and Birmingham New Street is ridiculous. At the end of the day they're just glorified stopping services just on a longer route, they aren't there to break records.

As mentioned before, the time penalty of stopping isn't considerable as the line speed is low, you would still catch a cross city at Birmingham. Southbound might save you a couple of minutes into Temple Meads. I expect it is part of their PSR to stop there anyway or they would have knocked it out of a few schedules already.