Crosscountry- can someone explain the madness?

[Requeststop]

If you live in the South West and want to go north of Bristol your only choice is XC. These days the is one service each way from Cornwall that goes to Newcastle in the winter time and extends to Edinburgh and in the summer time. There is now no service from Aberdeen or Dundee to Cornwall. The Penzance services are only possible due to the train taking an early morning run from Plymouth to Penzance and a late evening return back to Plymouth.
I can't tell you how many times my heart has sank when I see a five car train pull into Truro headed North and East and a couple of hundred people are waiting to board the train. Oh for the BR days when we used to have 10,11 and 12 Car trains passing through St Erth station heading up the West Coast Mainline to Liverpool, Manchester, and Glasgow as well as other distant destinations, including at times passing up the Borders line through Hereford and Shrewsbury during summer weekends.

Cross country now-----------Rubbish.

 

[Killingworth]

I just refuse to use them. They can be avoided for most journeys, and doing so is often cheaper, too.

My wife used to travel from Sheffield to Newcastle every week on XC. Not once since Covid thanks to the quicker journey via Doncaster being axed. Price is another issue. They can't easily be avoided thanks to poor services between Sheffield and Doncaster where ECML connections don't work well.

 

[Goldfish62]

That being said I think XC overcrowding complaints have been going on for well over a decade, including semi-regular posts on this forum.

Yes, but at least the service frequency partly mitigated that. We don't even have that now!

 

[JonathanH]

I can't tell you how many times my heart has sank when I see a five car train pull into Truro headed North and East and a couple of hundred people are waiting to board the train.

Those 'couple of hundred people' aren't by any means all going beyond Plymouth, Exeter or Bristol.

 

[Goldfish62]

If you live in the South West and want to go north of Bristol your only choice is XC. These days the is one service each way from Cornwall that goes to Newcastle in the winter time and extends to Edinburgh and in the summer time. There is now no service from Aberdeen or Dundee to Cornwall. The Penzance services are only possible due to the train taking an early morning run from Plymouth to Penzance and a late evening return back to Plymouth.
I can't tell you how many times my heart has sank when I see a five car train pull into Truro headed North and East and a couple of hundred people are waiting to board the train. Oh for the BR days when we used to have 10,11 and 12 Car trains passing through St Erth station heading up the West Coast Mainline to Liverpool, Manchester, and Glasgow as well as other distant destinations, including at times passing up the Borders line through Hereford and Shrewsbury during summer weekends.

Cross country now-----------Rubbish.

Cornwall has never in my memory had such a poor service north of Bristol. Going way back to the 1960s and probably before a minimum of three through daily trains to Birmingham and beyond was the norm. Now it's one a day.

 

[quantinghome]

I don't understand why XC has been left in its current predicament. It's largely down to the capacity of the rolling stock and that's been the case for two decades. Booking long distance journeys on LNER recently has shown just what a difference a decent number of coaches makes to the quality of the journey and opportunities to buy cheap advance fares.

Obviously XC is never going to earn revenue in the same way as the ECML, WCML or GWML, but all other intercity TOCs (TPE, MML, GEML) have recently got brand new fleets and XC is really sticking out, once again, as the Cinderella service. The comparison with TPE in particular is a real headscratcher. So what's the reason? Is it just the luck of the draw with the refranchising timetable?

 

[Goldfish62]

Those 'couple of hundred people' aren't by any means all going beyond Plymouth, Exeter or Bristol.

You reckon?

Given there's a 0955 to Paddington just 12 minutes before the Cross Country service I fully expect the majority are specifically waiting for the latter service.

 

[JonathanH]

Oh for the BR days when we used to have 10,11 and 12 Car trains passing through St Erth station heading up the West Coast Mainline to Liverpool, Manchester, and Glasgow as well as other distant destinations, including at times passing up the Borders line through Hereford and Shrewsbury during summer weekends.

All sorts of things have changed in the 40 years since there were 10, 11 and 12 coach trains running on Cross Country services from the South West to disparate places around the county. For a start the people who used to use them for holidays are now 40 years older and there is a completely different holiday market.

I'm not trying to defend the CrossCountry operation out of hand but the demand has certainly evolved from a Summer Saturday holidaymaker market in high summer for a week at the seaside, at least to the extend it would be reliant on the railway.

 

[Jimini]

I use them all the time between Coventry and Reading. No complaints from me with the exception of the odd single unit milling about (the 0725 quoted above via. Banbury to Reading for one). Plenty of £5 upgrades available too, I find.

I can see the line from my lounge and office here, and can confirm the vast majority today have been as laid out in RTT -- double units.

 

[Starmill]

CrossCountry would like to lease a few additional units, both Turbostar and Voyager. Such units are available in the imminent future. However they need to convince the government first that it's value for money to pay their leases and use additional fuel for them.

One of their three car Turbostars is due to return from East Midlands Railway later this year, I believe.

 

[DarloRich]

lets be honest the XC core market is an "X" based on New Street with arms facing Bristol/Cardiff, Newcastle, Manchester and Reading. The furthest I would see them go is Plymouth or Edinburgh. The rest is just fluff and should be done away with.

PS i think XC suffer here because many posters seem to think Cross Country = All of the country. It doesn't and it shouldn't. ( looking at you Brighton service fans!)

 

[uglymonkey]

Surely if you have got 2 trains, designed for the job, the DfT is always going to go for the cheaper, less specified one each time?

 

[Masbroughlad]

What will happen to XC services under GBR? Will it be a concession or swallowed up into others?

 

[DarloRich]

What will happen to XC services under GBR? Will it be a concession or swallowed up into others?

At this stage, no one knows.

 

[quantinghome]

All sorts of things have changed in the 40 years since there were 10, 11 and 12 coach trains running on Cross Country services from the South West to disparate places around the county. For a start the people who used to use them for holidays are now 40 years older and there is a completely different holiday market.

I'm not trying to defend the CrossCountry operation out of hand but the demand has certainly evolved from a Summer Saturday holidaymaker market in high summer for a week at the seaside, at least to the extend it would be reliant on the railway.

I wouldn't advocate a return to those days, but the combination of overcrowding and high prices means that from West Yorkshire (and I presume elsewhere) there are other longer distance holiday locations which are a much better option by train than the south-west. You would think that XC would be pushing to extend more and longer services into Cornwall during the summer holidays. No 'off-piste' stuff, just extending the core service.

 

[Goldfish62]

I use them all the time between Coventry and Reading. No complaints from me with the exception of the odd single unit milling about (the 0725 quoted above via. Banbury to Reading for one). Plenty of £5 upgrades available too, I find.

I can see the line from my lounge and office here, and can confirm the vast majority today have been as laid out in RTT -- double units.

But being in Coventry you won't have suffered the 50% service reduction that the rest of the Birmingham - Reading - Bournemouth corridor has.

 

[Killingworth]

But being in Coventry you won't have suffered the 50% service reduction that the rest of the Birmingham - Reading - Bournemouth corridor has.

Or the 50% reduction between Birmingham and Newcastle.

 

[Gareth]

i think XC suffer here because many posters seem to think Cross Country = All of the country. It doesn't and it shouldn't. ( looking at you Brighton service fans!)

Actually, it kind of was, back in the day. It even served London (sort of).

There's a balance to be struck between the amount of places served, frequency and reliability. The argument for sacking off Liverpool, as a not quite random example, is cited as prioritising the latter two factors over the former. But that principal isn't used to totality, otherwise you wouldn't have had both Manchester-South West & Manchester-South Coast services. It'd be one or the other on a half hourly frequency. Same with the equivalent North East services.

Ideally, (thus, issues with rolling stock and infrastructure aside) you'd have a core corridor with a hourly or half hourly frequency and then extensions to different important termini with X amount per day (perhaps a two hourly minimum). Then, those who just want to get to where they want as soon as possible would just get the next train to Birmingham and change for where they want to go beyond, whilst those who value not changing and are more flexible with their time of travel may work their timetable around the direct service.

Brighton is possibly another matter but Liverpool's exclusion is definitely an anomaly and I don't appreciate it being considered "off piste" or a destination of "no value".

 

[diffident]

I for one, certainly miss the Brighton services. Used to use them very regularly when I lived in Brighton in the early 2000's. It was much better with the 47's and Mk2's though. Even back then the Voyagers were rammed.

 

[Jimini]

But being in Coventry you won't have suffered the 50% service reduction that the rest of the Birmingham - Reading - Bournemouth corridor has.

Aye fair point. To be honest, we only bought this gaff late last year, so I don’t have a pre-Covid timetable comparison in my head.

I’d quite happily campaign for a later last northbound service from Reading though

 

[fgwrich]

Or the 50% reduction between Birmingham and Newcastle.

Or the (just over) 50% reduction between Reading and Southampton, though thankfully there are other services on that section.

 

[Goldfish62]

I’d quite happily campaign for a later last northbound service from Reading though

Yes, it used to be later than it is now.

 

[quantinghome]

Brighton is possibly another matter but Liverpool's exclusion is definitely an anomaly and I don't appreciate it being considered "off piste" or a destination of "no value".

Despite not being served by XC, Liverpool arguably has a better service to/from the West Midlands than many cities on the XC network. XC is not a premier brand. You're not missing much, believe me.

Liverpool is certainly large enough to justify through services beyond the West Midlands. But considering it's had other intercity services re-established (e.g. Glasgow), it appears to have little to do with Liverpool being specifically excluded and more to do with DfT inertia (which affects the whole of XC) and capacity constraints elsewhere on the network.

 

[yorksrob]

I can't answer the OP's question. But I'm always sort of fascinated with Cross Country. When Northern were briefly attached to Arriva and we could use Cross Country with our passes for free, we took a trip from Leeds to St Erth. OMG, I swear I needed anesthetizing for the return trip. It was a horrible, horrible experience. When I see passengers now with tickets to Plymouth and Penzance I could weep for them.

This in the know will go via London !

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Cross country went the same way as most TOCs who purchased rolling stock just after privatisation, using a road analogy, they went from an old HGV to brand new escort style van then realised as rail usage increased there was no room. Most TOCs recently have ordered larger trains again to do what trains do best, move large numbers of passengers long distances. I don't hold out much hope for cross country now savings are the order of the day

 

[A S Leib]

They can be avoided for most journeys, and doing so is often cheaper, too.

I know you said most, not all, journeys but the southern WCML to Derby feels like one of the journeys where using them is cheaper; a Tamworth - Derby off-peak day return's around £5 more than Stoke - Derby (which admittedly is around the same difference as between Tamworth and Stoke), and finding advance tickets for EMR feels like pulling hen's teeth a lot of the time. (Currently Hemel - Derby's 155 minutes via St. Pancras, 142 via Watford Junction and Birmingham New Street, 141 via Milton Keynes Central and Tamworth or 164 via Euston and Tamworth.)

 

[Gareth]

Despite not being served by XC, Liverpool arguably has a better service to/from the West Midlands than many cities on the XC network. XC is not a premier brand. You're not missing much, believe me.

Liverpool is certainly large enough to justify through services beyond the West Midlands. But considering it's had other intercity services re-established (e.g. Glasgow), it appears to have little to do with Liverpool being specifically excluded and more to do with DfT inertia (which affects the whole of XC) and capacity constraints elsewhere on the network.

The Strategic Rail Authority screwed Liverpool badly. Pretty much anything emanating out of central government with the word "strategic" in it usually does. Things have improved to some extent since those days. The main win is the second TPE and the direct link to Newcastle. Glasgow's that infrequent that it's hardly worth bothering with really, assuming it's still running post-revolution. The hope with the Glasgows was that they were a forerunner to a more frequent service. The Wrexham service is similar, although it's an extension of an hourly service to Chester, which is useful in itself. But having virtual no direct links to anywhere due south of Birmingham (other than London) is rather poor for a city of Liverpool's size.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Strategic Rail Authority screwed Liverpool badly. Pretty much anything emanating out of central government with the word "strategic" in it usually does. Things have improved to some extent since those days. The main win is the second TPE and the direct link to Newcastle. Glasgow's that infrequent that it's hardly worth bothering with really, assuming it's still running post-revolution. The hope with the Glasgows was that they were a forerunner to a more frequent service. The Wrexham service is similar, although it's an extension of an hourly service to Chester, which is useful in itself. But having virtual no direct links to anywhere due south of Birmingham (other than London) is rather poor for a city of Liverpool's size.

XC is so utterly, utterly awful that I'd rather the WMT service, particularly when you get the 2+2 seated 730s. They do need to work on reliability a bit, though.

 

[Gareth]

That may well be true and Liverpool may well benefit from small mercies for having something different to XC as it exists currently but let's be honest: if it was considered a clearly superior arrangement, that's what Manchester would have, either instead of Liverpool or in addition to it.

 

[Master29]

If you live in the South West and want to go north of Bristol your only choice is XC. These days the is one service each way from Cornwall that goes to Newcastle in the winter time and extends to Edinburgh and in the summer time. There is now no service from Aberdeen or Dundee to Cornwall. The Penzance services are only possible due to the train taking an early morning run from Plymouth to Penzance and a late evening return back to Plymouth.
I can't tell you how many times my heart has sank when I see a five car train pull into Truro headed North and East and a couple of hundred people are waiting to board the train. Oh for the BR days when we used to have 10,11 and 12 Car trains passing through St Erth station heading up the West Coast Mainline to Liverpool, Manchester, and Glasgow as well as other distant destinations, including at times passing up the Borders line through Hereford and Shrewsbury during summer weekends.

Cross country now-----------Rubbish.

To tell the truth, I go via Paddington to Kings Cross. Longer certainly but cheaper than Cross Countries appalling offerings and yes, even by GWR standards. The one time 100 bucket list Aberdeen to Penzance trip is now an embarrassment. I would be ashamed to admit I had done that nowadays under Arrivas brand.