CrossCountry Allocations

[Haydn1971]

Simple question, I'm sure it's been asked many times before...

How can you determine if a XC service will arrive as a 4, 5, 8 or 9 car unit ? I use realtime trains on my iPhone, but it doesn't appear clear - is there a typical allocation of train sizes that XC work to or some other mythical logic ?

I'm interested in particular in the Newcastle-Sheffield-Birmingham corridor at peak

 

[FQ]

Simple question, I'm sure it's been asked many times before...

How can you determine if a XC service will arrive as a 4, 5, 8 or 9 car unit ? I use realtime trains on my iPhone, but it doesn't appear clear - is there a typical allocation of train sizes that XC work to or some other mythical logic ?

I'm interested in particular in the Newcastle-Sheffield-Birmingham corridor at peak

Either 220 (4 car) or 221 (5 car) on the Newcastle-Brum.

 

[Tomnick]

RTT will show them all timed as 22x, with no indication of length. I don't know whether they advertise it anywhere - but I suspect not!

 

[Haydn1971]

Either 220 (4 car) or 221 (5 car) on the Newcastle-Brum.

Err... Thanks, doesn't actually answer the question though
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

RTT will show them all timed as 22x, with no indication of length. I don't know whether they advertise it anywhere - but I suspect not!

Cheers, I'm guessing that's the key problem of having a mixed fleet size operating on one corridor :-/

 

[Tomnick]

It's more of a limitation of the systems that feed RTT etc. - the way that timings are calculated, and therefore also the schedule itself, takes no account of the length of the train, only the type (and the weight, where applicable). The length information will be available somewhere - barring short term alterations, each service will be planned for either a single or double set, and the units diagrammed accordingly. I doubt that's in the public domain anywhere though!

If you're not already aware, it might be worth looking for those trains timed as HSTs (timing load HST125 rather than 220/221 in RTT) which should have a decent chance of producing an HST!

 

[Minilad]

The problem is in reality anything can be a 220 or a 221 dependent on whats where. There are 220 and 221 diagrams but they don't always stick. On our diagrams we used to have 220 or 221 stated but now it just says VOY.
For example I have either driven or rode on 1H17 0731 New St to Manchester 5 times in the last two weeks. 3 times it was a 221 2 times a 220 and that is ECS from Central Rivers so you would expect at that early stage to stick to diagram.
And then if you factor in disruption, failures, set swops it's easy to see why it would be so difficult to stick to booked traction all the time.
You even get 220/221 on 170 work and vice versa occasionally

 

[Haydn1971]

Thanks both, I was aware if the HST marker on RTT, but it's starting to look like pot luck on the number of 220/221 cars

 

[Tomnick]

I wasn't sure whether 220s and 221s were diagrammed interchangably (or is that just how it works out in practice?) - but whether a train's formed of a double set or not (the difference between 4/5 and 8/9/10 cars) should be less pot luck...if you can find the information to begin with!

 

[Rich McLean]

Thanks both, I was aware if the HST marker on RTT, but it's starting to look like pot luck on the number of 220/221 cars

Even though 220s and 221s have their own diagrams, a lot of the time they operate as a common pool if sets are out of place

 

[Minilad]

Double sets are booked double sets. Unless there is disruption and one needs be be nicked. But if it's booked double then generally it will stay double. There are 220 and 221 diagrams I believe but they don't always stick in practise

 

[Haydn1971]

but whether a train's formed of a double set or not (the difference between 4/5 and 8/9/10 cars) should be less pot luck...if you can find the information to begin with!

Looking at the RTT page, the routes are patched as 220/221 but no indication of single or doubled up - you seem to be suggesting that there's somewhere else to look ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Double sets are booked double sets. Unless there is disruption and one needs be be nicked. But if it's booked double then generally it will stay double. There are 220 and 221 diagrams I believe but they don't always stick in practise

How can I access the information on doubled or not though ?

In practise, a single unit will be rammed, a double unit less so, so this snippet it perhaps most useful rather than knowing specifically how many cars.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Then there's the hot spare at New Street that can be pulled out to cover a rather late XC service. It's surprising they had diagrams in the first place rather than Voyager, with one of the biggest operating maps covering the country, the diagrams will go belly up on day one!

 

[Tomnick]

I doubt it's information that's available to the public, unfortunately - unless someone's able to provide a copy of the unit diagrams, I'm not sure what else to suggest! If all else fails, someone might be able to find out whether individual trains have run as single or double sets in the last week or two, if there's a relatively small set of trains to choose between.

 

[Rich McLean]

Easiest way to find out would be to do a mock booking on the XC Website, and use the choose your seat option

 

[The Planner]

We are given the diagrams to enable to associate up empties with passenger workings and also for platforming purposes but we don't require it for timing them. I suspect there must be a gen group somewhere that has them as they tend to leak out.

 

[bb21]

Easiest way to find out would be to do a mock booking on the XC Website, and use the choose your seat option

I could be wrong but I don't think seats in Coaches G-L are reservable, in the same manner as Coach B, so you will not see them appear on the seat selection map.

For the same reason Voyager services will always only show a four-car service lettered A, C, D and F, and a 170 always a two-car service lettered A and C only.

 

[SprinterMan]

Double sets are booked double sets. Unless there is disruption and one needs be be nicked. But if it's booked double then generally it will stay double. There are 220 and 221 diagrams I believe but they don't always stick in practise

Is 221141 diagrammed as a 220 as it is only 4 cars?

Adam

 

[ValleyLines142]

Is 221141 diagrammed as a 220 as it is only 4 cars?

Adam

Yes, although in practice it can turn up on anything!

 

[ValleyLines142]

How can I access the information on doubled or not though?

The following services are booked for a pair of Voyagers, by the way:

Northbound:
1S33 0703 Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh
1S49 1125 Plymouth to Dundee (doubled between Bristol Temple Meads and Newcastle)
1M77 2000 Bristol Temple Meads to Birmingham New Street
1E67 1625 Plymouth to Leeds (only doubled on Fridays)

Southbound:
1V64 1306 Edinburgh to Plymouth (as far as Bristol Temple Meads)
1M76 1935 Newcastle to Birmingham New Street
1G91 2127 Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham New Street (221+221)

You may find that in some cases the rear unit is locked out of use (which kind of defeats the object of doubling them in the first place!), but that's mainly as it's the movement of units around.

 

[Haydn1971]

Cheers Dan ! That's useful for the future

Essentially, not many services at all and even then, as you say, some could be locked out, especially the later in the day ones I'd guess

 

[Minilad]

1M76 1M77 and 1G91 are all one locked out.

 

[Class 170101]

https://www.facebook.com/CrossCountryHSTgen?fref=ts

XC HST diagrams can be found here.

It should be noted 1V64 13:06 Edinburgh to Plymouth yesterday was a HST according to the website so couldn't have been a double Voyager.

 

[DarloRich]

Why anyone would WANT to travel by Voyager is beyond me! Just aim for the HST

 

[Rich McLean]

https://www.facebook.com/CrossCountryHSTgen?fref=ts

XC HST diagrams can be found here.

It should be noted 1V64 13:06 Edinburgh to Plymouth yesterday was a HST according to the website so couldn't have been a double Voyager.

That only happens on a Friday. Mon-Thur it is booked for a double vomitor

Also the 16:42 ex Oxford towards Manchester is booked a double 220 on a Friday also, but first to be a 4 car if a set short