Cross-London services

[507020]

West London Line is filled with stopping Overground and freight trains, plus it isn’t very quick or convenient to enter or exit

The WLL could largely be solved by a 2tph Southern service and more Avanti calls at Watford Junction instead of MKC, but that does nothing for connectivity in South London.

 

[cle]

The original Thameslink Guildford service formed a South London Orbital running directly from Guildford to Norwood Junction via Effingham Junction, Leatherhead Epsom, Sutton and West Croydon and then presumably continuing onto the Midland, a journey that would require 4 or more changes today with a lot more stops.

Simultaneously, InterCity Folkestone services called Reading, Kensington Olympia, Bromley South, Chatham. I wouldn’t have minded using one of those to avoid Euston and they could have put a few more interchanges in on the same route if they wanted. Why don’t such options exist at all today?

Who would use it? Ferry demand is decimated, and largely car based and in the South East anyway. There isn't another reason people would go (at scale) to Kent from North of London.

Same with these Eastbourne ones - who's going there? Nobody? Who lives there travelling beyond London in any material amount? Nobody.

 

[507020]

Who would use it? Ferry demand is decimated, and largely car based and in the South East anyway. There isn't another reason people would go (at scale) to Kent from North of London.

Same with these Eastbourne ones - who's going there? Nobody? Who lives there travelling beyond London in any material amount? Nobody.

It doesn’t need to go into Kent. Just the connections between say Old Oak Common and Swanley tracing an orbital route through South London, or even extending to Heathrow would definitely generate some usage.

 

[JonathanH]

Just the connections between say Old Oak Common and Swanley tracing an orbital route through South London, or even extending to Heathrow would definitely generate some usage.

Would it generate more usage than the other services already occupying the relevant paths?

 

[cle]

I think the more interesting missing piece of it all is a link from Clapham Junction to the Kent lines, but it avoided CJ and went directly from Olympia to Bromley South.

Today there are far more stops (Imperial Wharf, West Brompton, Shepherds Bush all didn't exist) - which ostensibly now require a metro service between them, as LO is often used - and all are well-used, so skipping some on a regional service isn't worth it. Shepherds Bush would win out over Olympia today also, if there was one call.

Then again, it's another TL Core, so everything in theory should call for pathing and then disperse to wherever. In this case, without a link to the fast lines (Gatwick/Brighton would be good for 1tph, South London locals would need 2tph+) - and only with 1tph, it's better to turn it at CJ.

Same with Watford frankly, better having a path back to a 12 car service into Euston. And in this case, it helps EWR get into MKC from opening.

 

[507020]

Would it generate more usage than the other services already occupying the relevant paths?

Well yes, among different groups of people than those going to London Terminals. There is a better use of paths than a network of purely radial services running dead straight lines out of Zone 1.

I think the more interesting missing piece of it all is a link from Clapham Junction to the Kent lines, but it avoided CJ and went directly from Olympia to Bromley South.

That’s not to say a modern service would need to do that distance non-stop. It would be an electric suburban service.

Today there are far more stops (Imperial Wharf, West Brompton, Shepherds Bush all didn't exist) - which ostensibly now require a metro service between them, as LO is often used - and all are well-used, so skipping some on a regional service isn't worth it. Shepherds Bush would win out over Olympia today also, if there was one call.

Then again, it's another TL Core, so everything in theory should call for pathing and then disperse to wherever. In this case, without a link to the fast lines (Gatwick/Brighton would be good for 1tph, South London locals would need 2tph+) - and only with 1tph, it's better to turn it at CJ.

Same with Watford frankly, better having a path back to a 12 car service into Euston. And in this case, it helps EWR get into MKC from opening.

The current Southern service does stop everywhere, but on the Thameslink core, City Thameslink is useless being too close to both Blackfriars and Farringdon but not an interchange, so stations like that could be eliminated.

I would always express a preference for a direct Watford to either Old Oak Common, Kensington Olympia or West Brompton over going into Euston. Not so much Shepherd’s Bush. I’ve never had a reason to go there.

 

[ShadowKnight]

I've always thought that a cross country service from Brighton/Gatwick to the WCML/GWML via the WLL would be a good summer seasonal service. Particularly with airport and music festival traffic.

There was cross country trains to Brighton before so there is precedent

 

[Mgameing123]

That's all pointless, and I would say that Watford Junction - Clapham Junction should become London Overground as well.

There is absolutely no business in running long-distance trains through the suburban lines around London. These suburban lines should run frequent metro services instead.

These suburban lines should have interchanges with mainline so that passengers don't need to travel into Central London than out to change between mainlines.

No it should stay as Southern and be extended to Gatwick Airport!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2024 ==

Well yes, among different groups of people than those going to London Terminals. There is a better use of paths than a network of purely radial services running dead straight lines out of Zone 1.

That’s not to say a modern service would need to do that distance non-stop. It would be an electric suburban service.

The current Southern service does stop everywhere, but on the Thameslink core, City Thameslink is useless being too close to both Blackfriars and Farringdon but not an interchange, so stations like that could be eliminated.

I would always express a preference for a direct Watford to either Old Oak Common, Kensington Olympia or West Brompton over going into Euston. Not so much Shepherd’s Bush. I’ve never had a reason to go there.

City Thameslink is more a destination and eliminates the need to change to other lines.

 

[507020]

No it should stay as Southern and be extended to Gatwick Airport!

If we’re saying the Chingford service uses the mains out of Liverpool Street instead of the suburbans with a different stopping pattern to Hackney Downs than the Cheshunt/Enfield, what benefit is it for Watford Junction services to be run by Southern, on a different pair of tracks on 6 track alignment, with a different stopping pattern? That would be an identical use case to on the Great Eastern.

City Thameslink is more a destination and eliminates the need to change to other lines.

But considering the location of Blackfriars and District Line stations, what benefit is it for City Thameslink to exist at all? I can recall going on Thameslink services that haven’t stopped there.

Thameslink had the other concept of being a radial route at either end joined together in the middle, which serves to eliminate a lot of terminal platforms, given over to Eurostar and the sheer density of the Southern Region, but doesn’t provide any orbital links.

 

[Harpo]

There was cross country trains to Brighton before so there is precedent

Precedent also for why they might not be a success nowadays?

 

[Magdalia]

City Thameslink is useless being too close to both Blackfriars and Farringdon but not an interchange

City Thameslink is more a destination and eliminates the need to change to other lines.

City Thameslink replaced Holborn Viaduct. It is the main destination station on Thameslink for the City of London, and still has quite a lot of commuter traffic. It is also the destination station for St Paul's Cathedral.

It also interchanges with many bus routes. A particularly useful link is being able to get a bus between City Thameslink and Waterloo.

These days it is also important operationally. Northbound services change from DC to AC at City Thameslink, so all northbound trains have to stop there, whether advertised or not.

 

[Mgameing123]

If we’re saying the Chingford service uses the mains out of Liverpool Street instead of the suburbans with a different stopping pattern to Hackney Downs than the Cheshunt/Enfield, what benefit is it for Watford Junction services to be run by Southern, on a different pair of tracks on 6 track alignment, with a different stopping pattern? That would be an identical use case to on the Great Eastern.

But considering the location of Blackfriars and District Line stations, what benefit is it for City Thameslink to exist at all? I can recall going on Thameslink services that haven’t stopped there.

Thameslink had the other concept of being a radial route at either end joined together in the middle, which serves to eliminate a lot of terminal platforms, given over to Eurostar and the sheer density of the Southern Region, but doesn’t provide any orbital links.

The benefit is that people won’t change trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2024 ==

If we’re saying the Chingford service uses the mains out of Liverpool Street instead of the suburbans with a different stopping pattern to Hackney Downs than the Cheshunt/Enfield, what benefit is it for Watford Junction services to be run by Southern, on a different pair of tracks on 6 track alignment, with a different stopping pattern? That would be an identical use case to on the Great Eastern.

But considering the location of Blackfriars and District Line stations, what benefit is it for City Thameslink to exist at all? I can recall going on Thameslink services that haven’t stopped there.

Thameslink had the other concept of being a radial route at either end joined together in the middle, which serves to eliminate a lot of terminal platforms, given over to Eurostar and the sheer density of the Southern Region, but doesn’t provide any orbital links.

Don’t tell me you want Watford to Croydon on the DC line. But the benefit is that it gives opportunities to extend the line further south.

 

[swt_passenger]

One traffic flow that may not exist due to the few attempts to cater for it is inter airport traffic. Stansted - Heathrow, Heathrow - Gatwick, Gatwick - Stansted.

Very little demand, that’s why, as has been explained regularly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2024 ==

I've always thought that a cross country service from Brighton/Gatwick to the WCML/GWML via the WLL would be a good summer seasonal service. Particularly with airport and music festival traffic.

There was cross country trains to Brighton before so there is precedent

Many of those ran via Reading and Guildford, withdrawn because they wasted paths on the congested route between Redhill and Brighton. In any case most normal passengers went through London, and presumably still do.

 

[miklcct]

I think the more interesting missing piece of it all is a link from Clapham Junction to the Kent lines, but it avoided CJ and went directly from Olympia to Bromley South.

Today there are far more stops (Imperial Wharf, West Brompton, Shepherds Bush all didn't exist) - which ostensibly now require a metro service between them, as LO is often used - and all are well-used, so skipping some on a regional service isn't worth it. Shepherds Bush would win out over Olympia today also, if there was one call.

Then again, it's another TL Core, so everything in theory should call for pathing and then disperse to wherever. In this case, without a link to the fast lines (Gatwick/Brighton would be good for 1tph, South London locals would need 2tph+) - and only with 1tph, it's better to turn it at CJ.

Same with Watford frankly, better having a path back to a 12 car service into Euston. And in this case, it helps EWR get into MKC from opening.

I really don't want the West London Line to become another core for long distance services, giving them the chance to mess up the core. If a link can be built between the West London Line and Watford DC line to send trains there, Watford Junction - Clapham Junction can become totally contained without interaction of non-TfL passenger trains if the service is transferred to Overground (although the problem of freight still remains), and hopefully without problems to East Croydon as well when the Southern metro network gets transferred.

 

[miklcct]

The original Thameslink Guildford service formed a South London Orbital running directly from Guildford to Norwood Junction via Effingham Junction, Leatherhead Epsom, Sutton and West Croydon and then presumably continuing onto the Midland, a journey that would require 4 or more changes today with a lot more stops.

Guildford to Central London via Norwood Junction is circuitous, with the most direct way via Wimbledon onto the tube to Blackfriars.

Guildford to Norwood Junction remains possible with one change at Epsom.

If you want to go onto the Midland, changing at Waterloo and West Hampstead is the fastest way to do, so still 2 changes only.

 

[stadler]

At one point there was a plan for a once a day in each direction Clapham High Street - Wandsworth Road - Imperial Wharf - West Brompton - Kensington Olympia - Shepherds Bush - Acton Main Line - Ealing Broadway - West Ealing service operated by a Southern 171 unit. It was only intended to be a parliamentary service and there was even a couple test runs of a Southern 171 to West Ealing and back but in the end they just used the rail replacement bus option.

However i think if this route ran more frequently once an hour in each direction all day long than it could be very popular. I would amend it slightly to instead run Clapham Junction - Imperial Wharf - West Brompton - Kensington Olympia - Shepherds Bush - Acton Main Line - Ealing Broadway - West Ealing - Hanwell - Southall - Hayes & Harlington - West Drayton as this would probably be a bit more useful.

Getting from South London to West London can take quite a while with no straightforward direct routes that avoid the Central London area so i think such a route could be popular. But the chance of it happening is probably very low especially as both the West London Line and Great Western Main Line have so many trains so even finding paths for an hourly service would be difficult.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

However i think if this route ran more frequently once an hour in each direction all day long than it could be very popular. I would amend it slightly to instead run Clapham Junction - Imperial Wharf - West Brompton - Kensington Olympia - Shepherds Bush - Acton Main Line - Ealing Broadway - West Ealing - Hanwell - Southall - Hayes & Harlington - West Drayton as this would probably be a bit more useful.

There is already a reasonably direct route. Change at Shepherds Bush to Central Line and at Ealing Broadway to Elizabeth.

Sometimes there's a proposal for a stop at Old Oak Common between Shepherds Bush and Willesden Junction.

 

[Doppelganger]

Getting from South London to West London can take quite a while with no straightforward direct routes that avoid the Central London area so i think such a route could be popular. But the chance of it happening is probably very low especially as both the West London Line and Great Western Main Line have so many trains so even finding paths for an hourly service would be difficult.

You can get from many South London stations to Clapham Junction and then it's a very easy change for the LO to Shepherd's Bush, which is West London. If you want to go further west, you can take the Central Line.

Alternatively places in South London such as Croydon using the tram to get to Wimbledon, then gets you onto the District Line and onto Earl's Court with further District Line connections west as well as the Piccadilly Line.

All these avoid Central London and can be fairly fast if the connections work out.

 

[Bald Rick]

The WLL could largely be solved by a 2tph Southern service and more Avanti calls at Watford Junction instead of MKC, but that does nothing for connectivity in South London.

No, that wouldnt solve it. The line is full of LO services and lots of freight.

I can recall going on Thameslink services that haven’t stopped there.

Only when the station is closed, very late at night and on Sundays.

But considering the location of Blackfriars and District Line stations, what benefit is it for City Thameslink to exist at all?

Around 25,000 passengers use it every day so they seem to think it offers benefit.

 

[MontyP]

You can get from many South London stations to Clapham Junction and then it's a very easy change for the LO to Shepherd's Bush, which is West London. If you want to go further west, you can take the Central Line.

Alternatively places in South London such as Croydon using the tram to get to Wimbledon, then gets you onto the District Line and onto Earl's Court with further District Line connections west as well as the Piccadilly Line.

All these avoid Central London and can be fairly fast if the connections work out.

Croydon to Earl's Court is much quicker via Southern to Victoria and then the District Line. The tram alone from E Croydon to Wimbledon takes over half an hour

 

[Doppelganger]

Croydon to Earl's Court is much quicker via Southern to Victoria and then the District Line. The tram alone from E Croydon to Wimbledon takes over half an hour

I thought the idea was to avoid Central London though... Plus via Wimbledon is cheaper.

 

[MontyP]

I thought the idea was to avoid Central London though... Plus via Wimbledon is cheaper.

The change from tram to District Line at Wimbledon isn't particularly easy, if the idea is to avoid difficult changes from mainline to tube in C London

 

[Bletchleyite]

The WLL could largely be solved by a 2tph Southern service and more Avanti calls at Watford Junction instead of MKC, but that does nothing for connectivity in South London.

This would not be a sensible approach. MK is a significant and growing demand centre in itself, both in and out.

Best solution to me would be slow line platforms at the Willesden/OOC complex, then the Southern service is not necessary.

 

[Mgameing123]

At one point there was a plan for a once a day in each direction Clapham High Street - Wandsworth Road - Imperial Wharf - West Brompton - Kensington Olympia - Shepherds Bush - Acton Main Line - Ealing Broadway - West Ealing service operated by a Southern 171 unit. It was only intended to be a parliamentary service and there was even a couple test runs of a Southern 171 to West Ealing and back but in the end they just used the rail replacement bus option.

However i think if this route ran more frequently once an hour in each direction all day long than it could be very popular. I would amend it slightly to instead run Clapham Junction - Imperial Wharf - West Brompton - Kensington Olympia - Shepherds Bush - Acton Main Line - Ealing Broadway - West Ealing - Hanwell - Southall - Hayes & Harlington - West Drayton as this would probably be a bit more useful.

Getting from South London to West London can take quite a while with no straightforward direct routes that avoid the Central London area so i think such a route could be popular. But the chance of it happening is probably very low especially as both the West London Line and Great Western Main Line have so many trains so even finding paths for an hourly service would be difficult.

Maybe instead of going to West Drayton from West Ealing how about send it to Greenford to replace the Greenford Shuttle.

 

[Fenchurch SP]

Maybe instead of going to West Drayton from West Ealing how about send it to Greenford to replace the Greenford Shuttle.

How about extending further from Uckfield to Aylesbury via Ealing Broadway and Princes Risborough? Maybe with some stops in the Herne Hill/Tulse Hill area.

 

[Doppelganger]

The change from tram to District Line at Wimbledon isn't particularly easy, if the idea is to avoid difficult changes from mainline to tube in C London

Easier than at Victoria though

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Maybe instead of going to West Drayton from West Ealing how about send it to Greenford to replace the Greenford Shuttle.

The bay platform at Greenford is very short. The current train is 2-car only.

 

[Mgameing123]

The bay platform at Greenford is very short. The current train is 2-car only.

Doubt the service will be popular anyways or else we could move the platform onto the New North Mainline.