Cross-London services

[Sprigibax]

Crosslink was a failure. However, Southern’s Watford Junction - Clapham Junction is well used. Are there any other possible services that weave around London without going into the centre that could be successful? Perhaps a service connecting the Midland Mainline and London, Tilbury and Southend Railway via the Goblin? Or connecting the Great Western Mainline with Southeastern services? Or are these ideas all pointless, as passengers may as well just travel into Central London?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think the only one that could be useful is Heathrow to East Croydon. Crosslink did plan a Woking to Watford service which could have gone well, but that was before Virgin stopped regularly calling at Watford. Anything serving East Anglia probably wouldn’t be competitive now you have Crossrail.

 

[SynthD]

The congestion of central London now extends to the key non-central junctions these potential routes probably need to hit. I’m thinking of Clapham Junction, Willesden Junction, Lewisham and Stratford, but East Croydon may be one too. If this is a peak and off peak service, I can’t think of a whole route. The level crossings in the south could be an issue.

 

[LLivery]

I'd imagine a cross South London service would be popular. Say Gravesend - Dartford - Bexleyheath - Lewisham - Peckham Rye - Clapham Junction - Richmond - Staines - Windsor & ER and all stns in between. Not saying it's remotely possible, but it'd certainly be useful considering how rubbish intra-South London's orbital connections are

 

[Basil Jet]

I'd imagine a cross South London service would be popular. Say Gravesend - Dartford - Bexleyheath - Lewisham - Peckham Rye - Clapham Junction - Richmond - Staines - Windsor & ER and all stns in between. Not saying it's remotely possible, but it'd certainly be useful considering how rubbish intra-South London's orbital connections are

.. except that the Waterloo / Waterloo East interchange is easy enough to destroy the benefit of such a service.

I'd like to see Orpington - Bromley South - Crystal Palace - Clapham J - Shepherds Bush - Ealing Broadway - Greenford - Princes Risborough - Aylesbury once an hour.

 

[Harpo]

Perhaps a service connecting the Midland Mainline and London, Tilbury and Southend Railway via the Goblin?

WTT Bedford to Southend services existed until about 60 years ago. Class 27 on ocassions.

 

[dk1]

CrossLink wasn’t necessarily a failure, it just didn’t have the recourses and was unfortunately unable to continue after the Hatfield disaster and subsequent gauge corner cracking months of disruption. A shame as there were some quite exiting plans for the service.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

.. except that the Waterloo / Waterloo East interchange is easy enough to destroy the benefit of such a service.

I'd like to see Orpington - Bromley South - Crystal Palace - Clapham J - Shepherds Bush - Ealing Broadway - Greenford - Princes Risborough - Aylesbury once an hour.

A new DMU service on electrified lines in South London?

 

[whoosh]

East Croydon to Old Oak Common.
Is there any plan to link to Old Oak Common from the West London Line?

 

[JonathanH]

East Croydon to Old Oak Common.
Is there any plan to link to Old Oak Common from the West London Line?

There is no funding available for the station on the West London Line, dubbed Hythe Road, near the Old Oak Common complex, nor funding for the corresponding station, dubbed Old Oak Common Lane, on the Richmond to Willesden Junction line.

 

[cle]

I'd imagine a cross South London service would be popular. Say Gravesend - Dartford - Bexleyheath - Lewisham - Peckham Rye - Clapham Junction - Richmond - Staines - Windsor & ER and all stns in between. Not saying it's remotely possible, but it'd certainly be useful considering how rubbish intra-South London's orbital connections are

The SE (Victoria-Lewisham-Dartford) is basically a W/E route. Many use it between Camberwell/Peckham and Lewisham/Blackheath, as if it were an Overground.

SLL (Clapham-Denmark Hill-Peckham) adds Clapham. And the Windsor is E/W and also used non-London from there. I can't see much cross-pollination beyond but yes it's not quite a perfect link. And of course Brixton would be a great add, in theory.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Perhaps a service connecting the Midland Mainline and London, Tilbury and Southend Railway via the Goblin?

If you are in the East Midlands and want to have a nice day out at the seaside, you can go to North Norfolk.
If a nice day out at the seaside doesn't interest you, Cleethorpes and Skegness are both much closer.

East Croydon to Old Oak Common.
Is there any plan to link to Old Oak Common from the West London Line?

There is no funding available for the station on the West London Line, dubbed Hythe Road, near the Old Oak Common complex, nor funding for the corresponding station, dubbed Old Oak Common Lane, on the Richmond to Willesden Junction line.

Quite a bit of discussion about connectivity between OOC and NLL/WLL services, starting with post #196 of the thread I've linked

The best way to electrify the Chiltern Network and the Snow Hill Lines

Just do Dorridge/Whitlocks End - Kiddy as phase 1. Get straight electrics for the shorts and BEMU's for the others. Do Dorridge-Leamington, Whitlocks End - Stratford and Kiddy - Worcester as addons. Get rid of a shedload of diesels from Brum. The London end will be the first bit to be done, if...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[LLivery]

.. except that the Waterloo / Waterloo East interchange is easy enough to destroy the benefit of such a service.

I'd like to see Orpington - Bromley South - Crystal Palace - Clapham J - Shepherds Bush - Ealing Broadway - Greenford - Princes Risborough - Aylesbury once an hour.

Eh, not really, and you could argue that for any orbital South London route thanks to the big interchanges in the Southern Region. People like direct services, not to mention via Waterloo is 2 tph with not great connection times and the privilege of via Zone 1 fares. It's not only about say Bexleyheath to Twickenham, but all the interchange abilities, and the proposed ones if funding was available. Build high level platforms at Brockley and suddenly Clapham Jun is ~20 mins away, rather than 45.

Meanwhile, of all the places us SE Londoners would like to be connected to (and the Chatham Main is local to me), the likes of Greenford and Princes Risborough are not exactly useful

The SE (Victoria-Lewisham-Dartford) is basically a W/E route. Many use it between Camberwell/Peckham and Lewisham/Blackheath, as if it were an Overground.

SLL (Clapham-Denmark Hill-Peckham) adds Clapham. And the Windsor is E/W and also used non-London from there. I can't see much cross-pollination beyond but yes it's not quite a perfect link. And of course Brixton would be a great add, in theory.

Brixton would make a big difference, as would Brockley. Add in a Elizabeth Line extension to Staines for Heathrow and you've got a lot of places South Londoners can reach with 1 or 2 trains without ever needing Zone 1.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There is no funding available for the station on the West London Line, dubbed Hythe Road, near the Old Oak Common complex, nor funding for the corresponding station, dubbed Old Oak Common Lane, on the Richmond to Willesden Junction line.

That is genuinely completely insane that there isn’t.

“We are going to build one of the largest most important stations in Britain on this brownfield site.”

“Brilliant! Can we have some platforms on the neighbouring Overground tracks too?”

“Sorry guys no money “

 

[cle]

Brixton would make a big difference, as would Brockley. Add in a Elizabeth Line extension to Staines for Heathrow and you've got a lot of places South Londoners can reach with 1 or 2 trains without ever needing Zone 1.

Yes I forgot Brockley. I have spotted it in a few TfL things (like the rather spurious Streatham thing) - I think it only works with 4tph solid each way. Once upon a time, that was going to be Vic-Sidcup-X and Vic-Hayes! But fingers crossed, the Bakerloo will reach Hayes and the other routes can move up to more metro frequency. Via Bexleyheath should comfortably be 6-8tph.

ELL should go up 2-4tph each direction through Brockley one day also - which would give better than many tube branches into the core.

 

[Magdalia]

Peckham Rye - Clapham Junction - Richmond

I can remember when the 37 bus did that.

WTT Bedford to Southend services existed until about 60 years ago. Class 27 on ocassions.

Nearly but not quite, it was Luton-Southend and it ran on summer Sundays until 1961, just before electrification of the LTS. There were also excursion trains from as far north as Leicester. Bedford was "out in the sticks" until the DMU service to St Pancras was introduced at around the same time.

If you are in the East Midlands and want to have a nice day out at the seaside, you can go to North Norfolk.

North Norfolk still gets lots of visitors from the East Midlands, a link that began in the days of the M&GN and was then passed down to subsequent generations.

 

[Harpo]

Nearly but not quite, it was Luton-Southend and it ran on summer Sundays until 1961, just before electrification of the LTS. There were also excursion trains from as far north as Leicester. Bedford was "out in the sticks" until the DMU service to St Pancras was introduced at around the same time.

Excellent, thanks. I believe there may have been St Pancras to Tilbury boat trains after that too but suspect the modern definition of those might be a charter?

For pure pedantry only, when the GOBLIN ran from Kentish Town, that was probably the very last MML to LTS service.

 

[duffield]

I can remember when the 37 bus did that.


Nearly but not quite, it was Luton-Southend and it ran on summer Sundays until 1961, just before electrification of the LTS. There were also excursion trains from as far north as Leicester. Bedford was "out in the sticks" until the DMU service to St Pancras was introduced at around the same time.


North Norfolk still gets lots of visitors from the East Midlands, a link that began in the days of the M&GN and was then passed down to subsequent generations.

Of course, since HS1 started running from St. Pancras, it's now about as quick to get from Nottingham to somewhere like Whitstable or Margate as it is to Cromer or Lowestoft.

 

[InTheEastMids]

There were also excursion trains from as far north as Leicester.

Saw a photo on random post that cropped up in my Facebook feed that was captioned as this, except it was at Linton on a now-closed line South-East of Cambridge.

Of course, since HS1 started running from St. Pancras, it's now about as quick to get from Nottingham to somewhere like Whitstable or Margate as it is to Cromer or Lowestoft.

Yes, a bit under 4h to East Anglia (by train), more like 3h 30 to the Kent Coast. Another example of how the overwhelming majority of train services that do not start, finish or pass through London are generally very slow (and that is probably depressing demand, meaning they can only be small).

Back towards topic, it's lovely to think that had somebody ever built a link between MML and NLL facing the right way, we could have had Thameslink WCML suburban services via Willesden and Kentish Town. That way, disruption to the TL core now could have impacted all 3 of the main lines connecting London to the North...

 

[Magdalia]

Saw a photo on random post that cropped up in my Facebook feed that was captioned as this, except it was at Linton on a now-closed line South-East of Cambridge

That picture has developed a life of its own in recent days, I don't do FB but have received it from 3 different sources.

The Leicester-Clacton and return summer Saturday train is one of my research obsessions, but it is definitely off topic for cross London services.

Getting back nearer to the topic the LMR also ran excursions off the LNW lines via Gospel Oak to Southend Central from as far away as Tring.

 

[JKF]

Until Crossrail, did anything on the GWR lines ever go east of Paddington other than freight to Spitalfields?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Until Crossrail, did anything on the GWR lines ever go east of Paddington other than freight to Spitalfields?

Services initially went down the metropolitan to Farringdon and some to Victoria, which I suppose is technically east of Paddington - just.

 

[Harpo]

Until Crossrail, did anything on the GWR lines ever go east of Paddington other than freight to Spitalfields?

There were through commuter services from the GWR inner suburban to the Met that changed steam for electric locos at Paddington.

There were also the Ealing Broadway to Southend (and shorter destinations) via the District line that ran until 1939. They exchanged electric to steam at Barking in their final form.

 

[miklcct]

Crosslink was a failure. However, Southern’s Watford Junction - Clapham Junction is well used. Are there any other possible services that weave around London without going into the centre that could be successful? Perhaps a service connecting the Midland Mainline and London, Tilbury and Southend Railway via the Goblin? Or connecting the Great Western Mainline with Southeastern services? Or are these ideas all pointless, as passengers may as well just travel into Central London?

That's all pointless, and I would say that Watford Junction - Clapham Junction should become London Overground as well.

There is absolutely no business in running long-distance trains through the suburban lines around London. These suburban lines should run frequent metro services instead.

These suburban lines should have interchanges with mainline so that passengers don't need to travel into Central London than out to change between mainlines.

 

[cle]

That's all pointless, and I would say that Watford Junction - Clapham Junction should become London Overground as well.

I agree entirely. At least 2tph (into the Watford bay) - clock faced, predictable, same calls (Wembley over Bushey, per being more metro). It could even be run by the same LO stock - due to the Wembley and Harrow WCML calls, top speed isn't that important.

And interwork them out of the p 1/2 area at Clapham - freeing up 16/17 more for whatever anyone is brave enough to do with them.

Give the Southern path to an extra hourly 10-car service from Victoria to East Croydon or similar, far more useful for all.

 

[65477]

One traffic flow that may not exist due to the few attempts to cater for it is inter airport traffic. Stansted - Heathrow, Heathrow - Gatwick, Gatwick - Stansted.


Now that the Elizabeth line is in place is the Chiltern line (Marylebone) the only one to not have a direct link to a cross London service?. In that question I'm eccluding services into London Bridge from the London area

 

[Merle Haggard]

That's all pointless, and I would say that Watford Junction - Clapham Junction should become London Overground as well.

This services demonstrates the reality of why such services don't work in reality.
It ought to be quicker, if travelling from anywhere North of Watford to any destination on the former Southern Region served by trains that stop at Clapham Jct, than travelling via London terminals with an Underground connection.
But that, it seems, is not the case - it's certainly been slower for all the journeys I've looked at.

 

[cle]

One traffic flow that may not exist due to the few attempts to cater for it is inter airport traffic. Stansted - Heathrow, Heathrow - Gatwick, Gatwick - Stansted.


Now that the Elizabeth line is in place is the Chiltern line (Marylebone) the only one to not have a direct link to a cross London service?. In that question I'm eccluding services into London Bridge from the London area

Inter-airport demand is TINY. And most that does exist is within companies (cabin crew, engineers, handlers - Swissport etc) and catered for by shuttles - consumer-wise, it's next to nil.

This services demonstrates the reality of why such services don't work in reality.
It ought to be quicker, if travelling from anywhere North of Watford to any destination on the former Southern Region served by trains that stop at Clapham Jct, than travelling via London terminals with an Underground connection.
But that, it seems, is not the case - it's certainly been slower for all the journeys I've looked at.

This, I suppose, is an issue of the Victoria line being so damn quick. And the WLL between Wembley and Shepherds Bush being a crawl. Upgrading those freight lines to even 50-60mph would make a decent difference.

 

[507020]

The original Thameslink Guildford service formed a South London Orbital running directly from Guildford to Norwood Junction via Effingham Junction, Leatherhead Epsom, Sutton and West Croydon and then presumably continuing onto the Midland, a journey that would require 4 or more changes today with a lot more stops.

Simultaneously, InterCity Folkestone services called Reading, Kensington Olympia, Bromley South, Chatham. I wouldn’t have minded using one of those to avoid Euston and they could have put a few more interchanges in on the same route if they wanted. Why don’t such options exist at all today?

 

[PGAT]

Why don’t such options exist at all today?

West London Line is filled with stopping Overground and freight trains, plus it isn’t very quick or convenient to enter or exit