Cross Country

[Minilad]

Since starting to post on this forum I have noticed that XC is quite possibly the least liked franchise in Britain currently.
Now don't get me wrong I am not exactly what you would call a company man but I am interested to know just why this is. XC also seems to get a lot of criticism here when maybe some of it isn't really something that XC itself can be held responsible for.
So I guess the simple question is. Why the hate for XC

 

[MidnightFlyer]

At a guess:

• Removing the Shop
• 'Extortionate' fares
• Voyagers (though blame for that lies with Virgin)
• Something about Advance tickets gets bounded around a bit
• Probably First Class service...

This topic on the same issue is one of the most commented ever on RailUK (started by me!):

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34704

 

[Jordeh]

Admittedly they can't be blamed for the voyagers and lack of capacity... However ticket prices are particularly high, first class offerings are bad, and there's been a real lack of investment by Arriva, mainly their delay in implementing Wifi across their fleet which is only just beginning I believe despite being part of the franchise agreement.

 

[tbtc]

Three simple reasons for the dislike:

1. Lack of capacity
2. Lack of capacity
3. Lack of capacity

TBF XC do a good job on a very complicated franchise, but its never going to be easy. A train that is a minute late in Newcastle might be an hour late by Bristol, for example. Plus, a five coach train might be fine for offpeak capacity but too small at rush hour (unlike most TOCs who can add capacity for rush hour services, its not easy when your average journey is a few hundred miles!).

(I've tried not to mention the "V" word!)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

How many HSTs are lying 'unused' at the moment or could be loaned to XC without knock-on effects?

 

[Greenback]

Some people just hate Arriva - they would get stick if they ran any TOC!

In fairness, I know train crew who work for XC, and they have a long list of complaints about the management. Morale seems to be pretty low, at least amongst those of my acquaintance, and falling all the time.

As to the other points that have been raised, they are all valid. There just isn't enough capacity on most XC routes, fares priced by XC are far too high, the restrictions they brought in are awful, and first class is not as good as other long distance operators.

For some reason, I quite like the Voyagers, but I seem to be in a bit of a minority on that one!

 

[MCR247]

How many HSTs are lying 'unused' at the moment or could be loaned to XC without knock-on effects?

Erm none?

 

[HugePilchard]

I'd have to cite Voyagers, too. All credit to the staff, though - I've always found XC's guards to be very friendly.

I dislike Voyagers so much that, when I used to do a daily commute by rail, I'd often choose to wait an extra 10 minutes or so to avoid one!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Erm none?

Sorry, I thought there was a fifth set that Arriva refused to employ, you know I'm no good on stock
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I dislike Voyagers so much that, when I used to do a daily commute by rail, I'd often choose to wait an extra 10 minutes or so to avoid one!

Blame Virgin, Arriva / CrossCountry can do nothing about that

 

[WestCoast]

Blame Virgin, Arriva / CrossCountry can do nothing about that

Don't forget to blame to DfT as well in that case, or the SRA was it?

CrossCountry seem to have downgraded the service, it doesn't feel intercity at all anymore.

Things I have noticed:

-Very brief announcements, nothing about the trolley service mentioned like they do on East Coast.
-Lack of cheap advance tickets (every other TOC seems cheaper)
-Removal of decent catering facilities.

 

[All Line Rover]

Some bad points:

• Removing the shop - even though some journeys can take MANY hours - so that now you have to wait for a trolley to arrive (don't hold your breath!), which always a VERY limited and expensive selection
• Having very, VERY few cheap Advance fares available
• Having THE MOST complicated fares structure of ANY TOC in the UK - e.g. A First Class ticket from Manchester can cost £120, but from Stockport just £30 (it's like this on LOADS of routes)
• Severely downgrading the First Class service, and having no innovation since they started the franchise (unlike Virgin, who have improved First Class on their Voyagers a lot in recent years)
• Withdrawing the "free First Class upgrade on Anytime tickets at weekends" offer

Some good points:

• Having a good selection of "Off-Peak" First Class tickets (Virgin really could learn something here)

Bad points which you can't really blame them for:

• Having far too few Voyager trains (naughty Virgin was the culprit here!)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've always found XC's guards to be very friendly.

Perhaps that's because most of them were trained by Virgin!

 

[IanXC]

fares priced by XC are far too high, the restrictions they brought in are awful

This is purely a function of the lack of capacity on the Voyagers. If you had too many passengers trying to travel on your services, other than acquire more stock (we all know how DfT manage that), the only other thing a TOC can do is increase the prices to discourage people from travelling, or with restrictions, encourage them to travel at quieter times.

If there were bargain fares surely those poor Voyagers would be even more overcrowded!

 

[All Line Rover]

This is purely a function of the lack of capacity on the Voyagers. If you had too many passengers trying to travel on your services, other than acquire more stock (we all know how DfT manage that), the only other thing a TOC can do is increase the prices to discourage people from travelling, or with restrictions, encourage them to travel at quieter times.

If there were bargain fares surely those poor Voyagers would be even more overcrowded!

That's a convenient excuse to make more money!

 

[Greenback]

This is purely a function of the lack of capacity on the Voyagers. If you had too many passengers trying to travel on your services, other than acquire more stock (we all know how DfT manage that), the only other thing a TOC can do is increase the prices to discourage people from travelling, or with restrictions, encourage them to travel at quieter times.

If there were bargain fares surely those poor Voyagers would be even more overcrowded!

You might have a point if it weren't for the high walk up fares that are so easily circumvented by splitting tickets, starting short or alighting early!

 

[WestCoast]

The sad thing is that XC could be so much better.

If the Voyagers were actually all 7-car Meridians, plus the 5 HSTs, all with a shop/buffet (and adequate luggage storage) we wouldn't be here whining.

All of XC's problems seem to stem from one thing - CAPACITY!

Capacity would allow catering, more comfortable journeys and cheaper Advance tickets.

 

[All Line Rover]

Since starting to post on this forum I have noticed that XC is quite possibly the least liked franchise in Britain currently.
Now don't get me wrong I am not exactly what you would call a company man but I am interested to know just why this is. XC also seems to get a lot of criticism here when maybe some of it isn't really something that XC itself can be held responsible for.
So I guess the simple question is. Why the hate for XC

XCDriver, were you a driver when Virgin ran the franchise?

I suppose that drivers are the most unaffected members of staff by Arriva running the CrossCountry franchise instead of Virgin. You drive the same trains, in the same cab, and as long as your pay check comes in each month that must be fine!

I think Train Managers and FC hosts must have been more affected by the changes. Having said that, when I've come across the odd "archive" page about Virgin's First Class offering on CrossCountry, it didn't look all that special! I think Virgin's improved a lot in the past few years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The sad thing is that XC could be so much better.

If the Voyagers were actually all 7-car Meridians, plus the 5 HSTs, all with a shop/buffet (and adequate luggage storage) we wouldn't be here whining.

All of XC's problems seem to stem from one thing - CAPACITY!

Capacity would allow catering, more comfortable journeys and cheaper Advance tickets.

Meridians are complete and utter crap and my opinion about them won't change until EMT put a "divider" in the "First/Standard Class carriage." The un-refurbished interior also looked very tatty compared to a Voyager. Simply increase the Voyagers to 7 car and that'll be fine - 1 First Class carriage should still be adequate, so there would be SIX Standard Class carriages left!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't blame Virgin entirely for their short-sightedness in introducing 4/5 car Voyagers. The idiotic DfT are more to blame. After all, they want to introduce FIVE CAR trains in the IEP - which are supposed to replace a HST!

 

[WestCoast]

Meridians are complete and utter crap and my opinion about them won't change until EMT put a "divider" in the "First/Standard Class carriage." The un-refurbished interior also looked very tatty compared to a Voyager. Simply increase the Voyagers to 7 car and that'll be fine - 1 First Class carriage should still be adequate, so there would be SIX Standard Class carriages left!

In my opinion, Meridians are far nicer than Voyagers. Meridians are basically Voyager mark 2 - with issues rectified. Forget about the divider - it can be resolved very easily. They are getting refurbished as well. They don't smell, have more comfortable seating for posture and a calmer decor, better use of space including provision for a buffet and adequate luggage storage. They're actually an Intercity train as opposed to a regional DEMU, which is what an XC Voyager is. XC's Voyagers offer a much poorer experience than a 222 does.

Having stood in a stinking Voyager vestibule, I really don't like XC's version. Virgin's Super Voyagers are better in that they have a first/standard coach that is standard on Birmingham - Scotland.

 

[tbtc]

You might have a point if it weren't for the high walk up fares that are so easily circumvented by splitting tickets, starting short or alighting early!

...but there's nothing XC can do about the fact that it may be cheaper to buy two (shorter) tickets priced by other TOCs.

If XC had the flexible capacity that other TOCs do then they'd find it a lot easier to sell cheap tickets.

Back in BR days, the "Cross Country" services were never "number one choice" on journeys of under a couple of hours. For example, Sheffield to Leeds was maybe a train every other hour, but fairly randomly timed, so you wouldn't plan a trip around them. But now they have a clockface hourly service (faster than the other TOCs), so you aim to get that train. As a result XC becomes much busier with "local" passengers. No easy way round this.

 

[WestCoast]

As a result XC becomes much busier with "local" passengers. No easy way round this.

In other countries they would place a supplement on the express train. The UK doesn't have adequate local services mirroring XC for that to work though.

I just wish that the Adelantes could have been transferred to XC to boost capacity.

 

[YorkshireBear]

i was under the impression the 5th set always had to be left spare?

I generally like the staff. But a catering man the other day: well.

4 car mid morning service leeds to plymouth ( i was to sheffield) it was standing room only there were no seats vesibules were crammed. Catering guy comes down quiet coach and then says there is two seats why dont you just sit down. there is about 18 of us so 2 go sit down and was then he decided to lecture us on why we should all go searching for seats. incredibly rude basically telling us off for not finding a seat when there wernt any

 

[tbtc]

i was under the impression the 5th set always had to be left spare?

AIUI they use four out of five each day, which is a reasonable use of stock (given the need for maintenance etc). No TOC ever uses 100% of its fleet each day, do they?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In other countries they would place a supplement on the express train. The UK doesn't have adequate local services mirroring XC for that to work though.

Yup, this is a big problem, hence the need for long distance trains stopping at places like Chester le Street, Dronfield etc

 

[TomJ93]

Arriva could say to the DFT if we pay Bombardier for new coaches (with pantos) to extend the entire fleet to 7 cars would that be ok? I'd be very shocked if the DfT said no, they should then extend the franchise- everybody wins!

Then we would have lovely Voyagers! With lovely shops!

The XC website is awful.

All fares are too high. (Even Coventry to Leamington, £4.40 return!! 20p per minute I think.)

The advance fares are too High.

First class is poor.

I've had some awful Members of staff. Just as I wrote that I had my ticket check by a very friendly VT lady!

 

[WestCoast]

The XC website is awful.

All fares are too high. (Even Coventry to Leamington, £4.40 return!! 20p per minute I think.)

When CrossCountry can't set its own (expensive) inter-available fare the story is often different.

Glasgow to Edinburgh, Anytime Day Return XC ONLY - £6

Glasgow to Edinburgh, Anytime Day Return (Priced by Scotrail) - £19.80.

:roll:

For some reason, I quite like the Voyagers, but I seem to be in a bit of a minority on that one!

I didn't mind them until I realised how poor they actually are. When your stood in a hot, smelly vestibule because the unnecessary disabled toilets (one in each coach is just poor design) are there instead of seats you'll begin to hate them! An empty Voyager is fine - a full one is hell!

 

[Crossover]

For what I use them for, I actually don't find XC too bad, but that may be the fares I use are not priced by XC but by Virgin, I'm not sure.

For some reason, I quite like the Voyagers, but I seem to be in a bit of a minority on that one!

Probably, but I'm with you as I don't mind them either on the whole. I know there is another forum member who would be with us on that too. (so that makes three of us then :P)

 

[87015]

I don't blame Virgin entirely for their short-sightedness in introducing 4/5 car Voyagers. The idiotic DfT are more to blame.

How are they more to blame? Voyagers are and always will be Virgins monstrosities, anything done by anyone since and in the future can only be attempts to stick a plaster over the problems they have created.

 

[WestCoast]

How are they more to blame? Voyagers are and always will be Virgins monstrosities, anything done by anyone since and in the future can only be attempts to stick a plaster over the problems they have created.

Because Virgin wanted longer trains and the DfT said NO. They did it with TPE as well. Are the DfT actaully bothered about XC? It wouldn't surprise me if they aren't, since XC doesn't serve their beloved London. Same goes for Northern, TPE, ATW e.t.c.

 

[87015]

Back in BR days, the "Cross Country" services were never "number one choice" on journeys of under a couple of hours. For example, Sheffield to Leeds was maybe a train every other hour, but fairly randomly timed, so you wouldn't plan a trip around them. But now they have a clockface hourly service (faster than the other TOCs), so you aim to get that train. As a result XC becomes much busier with "local" passengers. No easy way round this.

Hmm, since at least the early 80s there was basically an hourly service over the core network, might not have been nag on clockface but not far off...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because Virgin wanted longer trains and the DfT said NO. They did it with TPE as well.

Was that after they had thrown the toys out the pram and demanded to renegotiate the XC franchise on during the management contract era? Keep believing that media-room, VT are gods gift to railways etc etc...

 

[WestCoast]

Was that after they had thrown the toys out the pram and demanded to renegotiate the XC franchise on during the management contract era? Keep believing that media-room, VT are gods gift to railways etc etc...

We could sit here blaming Virgin and DafT all day, but apart from five HSTs, what is Arriva and the Dft doing to ease the situation and make XC better? Nothing!

Virgin aren't perfect, they made a big mistake and under estimated the demand the Voyagers would bring, but they seem much more capable of running a good quality intercity franchise than Arriva. I avoid them wherever possible.

My big problem with all this "let's bash Virgin" (not in the other sense) is that I doubt any other company would have done better. It's a direct parallel with what the current government is saying about the previous one - "it's all their fault". Well, do something about it then!

 

[Hydro]

I do actually hate travelling on XC. Nature of work means I have to travel a lot, sometimes at short notice, and usually it means some form of XC service due to the places I need to go. More than once I've turned up and upgraded to First class out of my own pocket due to the entire train being utterly RAMMED. Not just busy, I'm talking aisles and vestibules full, cases and bags occupying every piece of space that isn't already occupied by a person. People stretched out in the vestibules, the trolley isolated at (sods law) the opposite end of where I am.

I know that this isn't XC's fault for inheriting the worst pieces of "Intercity" stock ever, but a bit of investment to lengthen these things would be an absolute lifesaver. How on earth can you justify such long Intercity cross-country routes stretching the length and breadth of the country, serving huge population centres...with 4 coach trains?

 

[tbtc]

Hmm, since at least the early 80s there was basically an hourly service over the core network, might not have been nag on clockface but not far off...

...but some were via Doncaster and some via Leeds. Generally the ones which went one way northbound came back the other way south bound (so that the service from Birmingham to Sheffield was basically hourly), but not all did. And then there were the ones which went via Doncaster *and* Leeds which mucked up the timings again.

So, roughly hourly on the service from Birmingham, aye, but quite confusing/irregular further away from the "core"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Arriva could say to the DFT if we pay Bombardier for new coaches (with pantos) to extend the entire fleet to 7 cars would that be ok? I'd be very shocked if the DfT said no, they should then extend the franchise- everybody wins!

Lovely idea. Shame is, the DFT seem not to want to let Virgin invest in more/longer 390s (or introduce stock straight away), hence the current muddle on the WCML.

The whole point of privatisation was to encourage this kind of risk taking and incentive, but we all know how that happened
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I didn't mind them until I realised how poor they actually are. When your stood in a hot, smelly vestibule because the unnecessary disabled toilets (one in each coach is just poor design) are there instead of seats you'll begin to hate them! An empty Voyager is fine - a full one is hell!

I guess the same could be said of most stock - standing for your journey is never nice, especially by toilets, regardless of whether its a Voyager or not.

Sort the capacity out and people wouldn't hate them as much.