Cross Country- traveling with altered railcard

[acidgambino]

good morning,

i’m posting on this forum to ask for advice for my friend.

yesterday we travelled from manchester piccadilly to bristol temple meads. when my friend was asked to present her railcard, she showed a screenshot (which happened to be another friend of ours railcard with my friends photo attached to it). she was pulled aside for questioning, where she answered honestly and cooperated (despite the slightly hostile attitude of two railway staff). the railcard was a 16-25 one and my friend is 21 (just a bit of context). after providing her information, she was told that usually cross country will send her a fine/fee she’ll need to pay + administrative fees, with court prosecution potentially being possible due to the fraudulent nature of the case.

considering this is my friends first time doing this, we are both anxious about the outcome. we were wondering what the usual outcome of these cases are (we’re hoping it’s just a fine). i’m aware (after reading loads of forum posts) that different companies have different approaches and wanted to know what the cross country company normally issues. money is tight and we also want to know how much money she’d have to approximately pay and if the company is open to some sort of payment plan agreement.

any help would be really appreciated!

 

[30907]

Generally, train operators including XC prefer to settle out of court rather than prosecute if you engage with them.

XC's agents unfortunately for your friend charge a larger fee than most, on top of the full Anytime Single fare for the journey.

It is possible they will investigate your friend's travel history and demand payment for previous instances (if any).

That, I am afraid, is the best I can offer. Please advise your friend to come back here for advice when they are contacted.

 

[WesternLancer]

good morning,

i’m posting on this forum to ask for advice for my friend.

yesterday we travelled from manchester piccadilly to bristol temple meads. when my friend was asked to present her railcard, she showed a screenshot (which happened to be another friend of ours railcard with my friends photo attached to it). she was pulled aside for questioning, where she answered honestly and cooperated (despite the slightly hostile attitude of two railway staff). the railcard was a 16-25 one and my friend is 21 (just a bit of context). after providing her information, she was told that usually cross country will send her a fine/fee she’ll need to pay + administrative fees, with court prosecution potentially being possible due to the fraudulent nature of the case.

considering this is my friends first time doing this, we are both anxious about the outcome. we were wondering what the usual outcome of these cases are (we’re hoping it’s just a fine). i’m aware (after reading loads of forum posts) that different companies have different approaches and wanted to know what the cross country company normally issues. money is tight and we also want to know how much money she’d have to approximately pay and if the company is open to some sort of payment plan agreement.

any help would be really appreciated!

Given your friend is eligible for a railcard due to their age they should buy one now ASAP - when this is followed up this is something they can say they have done to put right what they did wrong - see it as a £35 investment in trying to avoid serious sanction.

This needs to be taken really seriously - altering / forging a railcard like this is clear evidence of pre-meditated and deliberate fare evasion - many people would wonder why prosecution was not automatic for this sort of thing. Resolving it will cost way more than the £35 saved too

Your friend will need to be prepared to try and secure an out of court settlement for this or it will escalate to court action. This is likely to involve some grovelling and assuring the Train company that

- That they are sorry for what has happened
- That they have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That they are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit online ticket purchase history and if this shows other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only part of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into any settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys have been made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.

They do not usually offer any sort of payment plan.

Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight think about how to raise the sum required at short notice.

Beyond this there is some preparation that can be done whilst waiting to receive their letter

- it vital to receive and reply to their letter or e-mail - so check post / e-mail and spam at the address given (if this is not responded to it will escalate automatically to court)

- they may ask for proof of previous valid railcards held (going back potentially over some time / years) - if your friend has had Railcards before they should start looking for such proof now (eg e-mail confirmations, old railcards, bank payment records or anything that might as this could help reduce the money they might ask for.

- go through their on line ticket buying records and make a private list of all the occasions where a railcard discounted ticket was bought without a valid railcard being held - work out the Anytime Single Fare for each trip (this is the peak time price that they will seek for each trip if they offer a settlement) - So for example Manchester to Bristol alone is £122.60 one way for that one way journey where they were caught

- do not delete the on line account because the railway can still access it but the account holder then can not - this puts you at a disadvantage (eg unable to check if they have made a mistake by checking your own records if you have deleted the account)


As mentioned, when the letter is received post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with a draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. It would be wise to get the draft reply checked by people here before sending any reply.

The letter is likely to come from Cross Country's enforcement sub contractor ITAL - I am afraid they are not known for their generosity when it comes to calculating the sum they believe would be owed.

Here's a case recently where you can see the sort of sum demanded - and the time period in which they were contacted after the event was quite long

£290 for accidentally using expired railcard for one £30 journey??!

Hi, I received this letter in the post 4/5 months after the journey in question. I think it was to do with my railcard being expired, but even so the ticket inspector said I should be okay if I bought a railcard immediately after, which I did. Does anyone have any advice as to what I should...

www.railforums.co.uk

Their admin fee is £175 on top of the Anytime fare (so in your friends case you are looking at minimum £175 + £122.60 even if they don't find any other suspicious travel to add on)

Note that this case involved a presumably un noticed expired railcard (as opposed to a deliberately altered one) and they simply made the offer to settle for the sum demanded without further action. So it's a bit different to what your friend did.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

... wanted to know what the cross country company normally issues. money is tight and we also want to know how much money she’d have to approximately pay and if the company is open to some sort of payment plan agreement.

Likely will be asked for the price of an undiscounted Off Peak Single from Manchester Stations to Bristol Temple Meads (= £114.40), or £122.60 if charged at the Anytime Single rate, PLUS a three figure fee on top, perhaps some £150.00 or £175.00. No credit given for what's already been paid. Unlikely that the train company or its agent ITAL will accept payment of the amount demanded in instalments, it'll probably need paying all in one go. As has already been mentioned, there's a chance that there may also be an investigation into any previous occasions of your 'friend' buying, and then travelling, using other inappropriately discounted tickets, especially so if they've been bought online.

 

[Swedenorer]

I suspect that what has been outlined above will be what happens since the railway will get all the proceeds of any settlement. They will investigate travel histories and they will ask questions. It will probably cost you a lot of money.

But there is another aspect to all this which I don't think has been addressed and that is what you say if the company ask just how your friend got hold of the railcard to, shall we say, amend? What your friend has done is far more serious than simply free-riding or short faring or even changing the date on their own railcard. They have used someone else's I assume perfectly valid card with alterations in an attempt to gain a pecuniary advantage. There are obvious questions surrounding this that may well be asked

With any luck it won't come to this, especially of this is genuinely the only offence, even with ITAL it probably won't - but at the very least I hope your friend has told her friend just what has happened.

 

[John R]

(despite the slightly hostile attitude of two railway staff)

It's probably not surprising that when railway staff encounter someone who is clearly travelling fraudulently (and thus committing a criminal offence) that they are unlikely to treat them with kid gloves. So long as they remained professional throughout, I don't think you or your friend can complain if the treatment was somewhat brusque.

considering this is my friends first time doing this

So if ITAL investigate your friend's account, they won't find any other ticket purchases with a railcard? If they do go looking and find any, they will add the cost for new tickets to any settlement account offered.

 

[WesternLancer]

I suspect that what has been outlined above will be what happens since the railway will get all the proceeds of any settlement. They will investigate travel histories and they will ask questions. It will probably cost you a lot of money.

But there is another aspect to all this which I don't think has been addressed and that is what you say if the company ask just how your friend got hold of the railcard to, shall we say, amend? What your friend has done is far more serious than simply free-riding or short faring or even changing the date on their own railcard. They have used someone else's I assume perfectly valid card with alterations in an attempt to gain a pecuniary advantage. There are obvious questions surrounding this that may well be asked

With any luck it won't come to this, especially of this is genuinely the only offence, even with ITAL it probably won't - but at the very least I hope your friend has told her friend just what has happened.

This is a good point. The person who shared the Railcard needs to be warned never to do this.
They are potentially traceable if the railway was minded to do so.

It’s a clear breach of the Railcard t&cs so at the very least could result in its confiscation on demand. I’d assume more serious sanctions than that might be potentially available too.