I'm sure this has come up quite often but I'm going to ask anyway. Aside from the fact that rail fares in the UK are as expensive as it is, why do Cross Country Trains seem to top the lot? I'm travelling from Edinburgh to Birmingham on the 26th July and I've just managed to get a first class ticket for £50 on Virgin West Coast. Cross Country on the other hand charge £258 for the journey. Why is this, when Virgin offer the better first class service, slightly more space and a faster journey (can't beat a glide in the Pendolino) as opposed to Cross Country's rattling Voyagers with no buffet service? I thought £50 was a push but the fact it costs £258 to do the trip on a Voyager seems like a steal!
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Cross Country Trains - Why is it so expensive?
- Thread starter Clansman
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Ash Bridge
Established Member
Would it be to do with the fact that Virgin have more seats to offer, and XC push up the ticket cost deliberately to manage capacity (or lack of)?
It costs the same to do it on a Plymouth bound HST so it can't be a capacity issue. Even on a HST £258 is waaaay not worth it
If I were to make a list of the longest journeys you could do first class for a lesser price than Cross Country's fare from Edinburgh to Birmingham on July 26th:
Inverness to Penzance via London (VTEC to KX, GWR to PNZ) £215.50
Any higher bids
Inverness to Penzance via London (VTEC to KX, GWR to PNZ) £215.50
Any higher bids
Last edited:
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
One of Arriva XC's first decisions was to double the uplift for its First Class fares from 50% to 100%, which is why they are such poor value.
Another decision was to introduce the 0930 blanket restriction for off-peak fares, forcing them up even on relatively quiet sections of route.
Arriva XC also sets many long-distance walk-on fares even though they do not provide the services (eg Inverness-Birmingham, even if you travel on VT via Preston).
However, XC as a franchise has moved from basket case to roughly break even in the last decade, so I'm sure Arriva and DfT would say the policy has been successful.
Prices will be relatively higher because with the capacity limitations of the voyagers, XC will not be worried if they suppress demand - it helps them as there are fewer complaints about not getting a seat and will slightly improve their PPM figures as trains are less likely to be delayed by dwell times
sciisfun
Member
when I book to see my mate in Plymouth (usually about 4 weeks in advance) the difference between GWR and XC is about 20p in first class, (gwr 8.60, xc 8.80 return) however the difference in service is leaps and bounds better on xc, I get more than a single 150ml can of coke for an hours journey for starters!
The answer is simply that the XC train serves very different markets along its route. Essentially, one seat can be sold for a NCL-YRK, a YRK-LDS, a LDS-DBY, a DBY-EXD journey and so on. The XC route connects major population centres. The West Coast, along with having LOADS more seats per train, has very few "mini markets" along the route like that, so Virgin aren't charging a premium for you to occupy the seat the whole way.
Flamingo
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 6,806
GWR don't do 150ml cans except for tonic and lemonade mixers, which are not complimentary. And the 330 ml cans are not rationed in 1st class.
Are you sure you were on a train?
Last edited:
sciisfun
Member
I remember them being smaller than standard cans, have they changed in the past 12 months? Not traveled with GWR in first since then (other than wef) and just after leaving Newton abbot, I was told 'to make my drink last as I wasn't allowed another one' and it was defiantly a train, as I got to start my journey on a 143
it was defiantly a train, as I got to start my journey on a 143
A 143 being called a train...
Rather the XC trains are too short to cater for all demand throughout the journey, so fares are set at eye-watering levels to dampen demand. Also, the sum of the XC fares (sometimes with some legs set by other TOCs) is normally significantly less than the whole journey and a large number of passengers are now aware of this - most split Bristol to Birminghan at Cheltenham which produces misleading data. It's a huge mess and needs a solution.
Flamingo
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 6,806
I remember them being smaller than standard cans, have they changed in the past 12 months? Not traveled with GWR in first since then (other than wef) and just after leaving Newton abbot, I was told 'to make my drink last as I wasn't allowed another one' and it was defiantly a train, as I got to start my journey on a 143
For a stage there was no cans at all, just water and fruit juices, but fizzy drinks came back a few years ago. They have always been 330ml, we have never stocked smaller cans of Coke, just 500ml bottles (for the past 12 years, anyway!).
I have no idea why you would be told make it last - definitely not a policy. The only time we draw the line is if passengers are obviously helping themselves for later (and taking the widdle) as they are for on-board consumption. One chap many years ago used to pay his (then £10) weekend upgrade and then come up to the bar and demand 24 cans of Coke. The only way we eventually stopped him was by opening each one before handing it over
(good customer service!).Given that the First Class area on a 143 is very small (ie, just the seat you were sitting in) maybe it was the Guards own drink you had, and he was understandably grumpy about you taking it on him
Last edited:
47271
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Apr 2015
- Messages
- 2,983
I avoid Cross Country like the plague for the two main reasons we're all familar with: horrible trains and high fares.
On the rare occasions when I've had to get on one of their Voyagers I've always been surprised by how busy First Class is. There must be enough people prepared to pay the high fares to sit in the relatively small capacity available. So I doubt that the operator cares that we find them expensive.
On the rare occasions when I've had to get on one of their Voyagers I've always been surprised by how busy First Class is. There must be enough people prepared to pay the high fares to sit in the relatively small capacity available. So I doubt that the operator cares that we find them expensive.
And that's your answer in a nutshell: if you can fill the train then there's no incentive to drop your price.
sciisfun
Member
For a stage there was no cans at all, just water and fruit juices, but fizzy drinks came back a few years ago. They have always been 330ml, we have never stocked smaller cans of Coke, just 500ml bottles (for the past 12 years, anyway!).
I have no idea why you would be told make it last - definitely not a policy. The only time we draw the line is if passengers are obviously helping themselves for later (and taking the widdle) as they are for on-board consumption. One chap many years ago used to pay his (then £10) weekend upgrade and then come up to the bar and demand 24 cans of Coke. The only way we eventually stopped him was by opening each one before handing it over
Given that the First Class area on a 143 is very small (ie, just the seat you were sitting in) maybe it was the Guards own drink you had, and he was understandably grumpy about you taking it on him
Must have been imagining the smaller cans then, 24 is a bit much, although kudos for the creative solution
, and nah, all of a 143 is first class, that's why they're the best! for some reason the guard was more miffed when I closed the local panel for him after he started walking down the train leaving it open, and the local switch on! (was st James, so wrong side for the next stop)A 143 being called a train...
Better than the actual bus I would have to catch
being on the Devon metro its usually a 143 that I end up catching, so kinda Stockholm syndrome I expect.Allas, I have managed to hijack this topic a bit, back onto the subject, walk up prices on busy sections are always going to be more expensive, looking at trains for tomorrow, the difference between standard class fares is £8.70 in virgins favour looking at 10. 51 and 11.06 departures. I'm wondering if they are so expensive to try and keep the seats free for people closer to brum, and cashing in on expensive fares to be paid by business accounts.
Rich McLean
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Feb 2012
- Messages
- 1,757
For the record, XC on busy flows, where XC is the only option (Oxford to Birmingham) many often pay the extra for first class just to get seat
Once I travelled standard class, and there were so many passengers on board, that the toilets were filled with standees, rendering them unusable
Once I travelled standard class, and there were so many passengers on board, that the toilets were filled with standees, rendering them unusable
I agree! It is indeed a mess.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Outside of peak time South East commuter services, having to do that really riles. TPE is the same (until the new 5 car sets arrive).
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sniffingmoose
Member
Have a look at the review centre website on the internet an see what the general public think of the high first class fares and the service. The unsuspecting public think they will get the full works dining in first class.
All Line Rover
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 5,270
CrossCountry's pricing strategy is plain bizarre. For example:
09:07 MAN to BHM 10:33 - £92.70 1ST AP
09:44 SOT to BHM 10:33 - £19.10 1ST AP
10:00 STA to BHM 10:33 - £5.20 1ST AP
If CrossCountry really did price to manage demand, why are they offering £5 first class fares for the busiest section of the journey between Manchester and Birmingham? Considering they are charging fares approaching £100 single for Manchester to Birmingham, why even bother offering £5 first class fares?
From time to time I have travelled in first class with CrossCountry departing Birmingham on a weekday evening (with a season ticket), and on more than one occasion there have been, alongside a few well behaved passengers on exorbitant Anytime First tickets (which they mentioned when I conversed with them), groups of stag parties travelling a short distance and ruining the ambiance in the single first class carriage. The passengers with full fare tickets were unhappy, to say the least. When this happens repeatedly it is a wonder that anyone pays for walk-up first class tickets outside high peak hours (pre-9:30am arrivals / departing between 16:00 and 18:00). CrossCountry's Off-Peak First tickets are priced at the level you would expect to pay for Anytime First tickets with other train operators.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's a disgrace that CrossCountry's Voyagers aren't all 5-cars. Three carriages of standard class accommodation is woefully insufficient, which until last year could be clearly seen on those Virgin Trains services where Coach D was designated as first class accommodation (a practice which has now ceased).
Last edited:
Good Cambridge-Birmingham NS advance fares via XC are like golddust.
Meanwhile, cheap Ely-Birmingham advances are in abundance, with only a £2.45 walk-up single needed to extend them to Cambridge.
I guess the strategy is to fill the same seat multiple times in the same journey for short distances (making more money overall), rather than encourage sole occupation over a long distance.
Meanwhile, cheap Ely-Birmingham advances are in abundance, with only a £2.45 walk-up single needed to extend them to Cambridge.
I guess the strategy is to fill the same seat multiple times in the same journey for short distances (making more money overall), rather than encourage sole occupation over a long distance.
Doctor Fegg
Established Member
I think describing it as a "strategy" is being over kind. Greenback had it right: incompetent fares management and projections.
The most interesting thing about First's Horizon Trains bid for the West Coast was that they admitted that high walk-up fares, as practised by Virgin (and Arriva XC), were actually damaging revenue. They believed that by reducing walk-up fares to a more sensible level, and thereby filling more seats that way rather than through yield-managed advances, they would increase revenue overall. It's the first time I've seen any TOC taking this approach since CT dropped prices across the board in the '90s, and I'm fully behind it.
Meanwhile, I'll continue to travel from the Cotswolds to Birmingham via Worcester and stay the hell away from XC.
(Incidentally, just spotted this: http://www.whataloadoftosh.com/projects/Horizon-Trains)
The most interesting thing about First's Horizon Trains bid for the West Coast was that they admitted that high walk-up fares, as practised by Virgin (and Arriva XC), were actually damaging revenue. They believed that by reducing walk-up fares to a more sensible level, and thereby filling more seats that way rather than through yield-managed advances, they would increase revenue overall. It's the first time I've seen any TOC taking this approach since CT dropped prices across the board in the '90s, and I'm fully behind it.
Meanwhile, I'll continue to travel from the Cotswolds to Birmingham via Worcester and stay the hell away from XC.
(Incidentally, just spotted this: http://www.whataloadoftosh.com/projects/Horizon-Trains)
Getting cheap tickets on any longer distance journeys on the NE/SW route is very difficult even when booking weeks in advance.
I'm travelling down from Nottingham to Exeter next week for 7 days and found the fares very high even when I tried to book nearly 12 weeks ago.
I was originally planning to travel down to Exeter using Advance Fares and then purchase a Devon and Cornwall Rail Rover and a Stagecoach weekly bus ticket to travel around whilst there.
In the end I got a much better deal by getting Advance tickets from Nottingham to Cheltenham and return for only £14.50 each way and then getting an 8 Days in 15 South West Rover which covers the remainder of the journey between Cheltenham and Exeter plus 6 days travel by train whilst I'm in Exeter.
Over the last 2 years, since taking early retirement, I have done a number of such journeys with week long stays based in various locations making use of rail and bus rover tickets whilst there. I have always found very reasonable advance fares from Nottingham to other parts of the country including Folkestone, Lancaster, Brighton, Carlisle and London. All of these have been considerably less than half the price of getting to Exeter. The high price of Cross Country tickets has put me off travelling to the SW.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Didn't VTEC cut their Anytime fares by 10% on taking over EC?
No change on VTWC though, at least until the next franchise change.
Horizon didn't win anyway, so who knows how it would have turned out.
First haven't dropped fares anywhere else.
Yes (on fares to/from London or Stevenage), but this was after First's bid for the West Coast so wouldn't affect Doctor Fegg's statement.
Last edited:
Travelling first class on West Coast is usually good value if you can time it right but why is travelling first class on Cross Country trains such a joke. I have no idea what you are paying for. It's the most expensive cup of tea you'll ever buy.Rude staff. No food to speak of. No point.
XC actually have a very good food service now. In my opinion it's superior to Virgin WC. They have hot meals for sale on Voyager and HST trains which have decent portion sizes.
Granted it's not complimentary, and the fares are not cheap...
- Status